Does the back cut have to be higher than the bottom of the face?

sawinredneck

sawinredneck

Treehouser
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
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Location
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Yeah, yeah, laugh all you want!
I've been getting lazy, getting in and out on the work I do do now. I've been ALAP'ing my fells of late. Make the bottom of the face flat, 60deg notch on the top, cut the root flair, scarf the sides even with the top of the flat on the face to align and cutting the back cut. Wedge it over and clean up the hinge for the ALAP then clean up the rest of the mess.
Basically my face looks like Carl's avatar, just lower, and I make the backcut even with the bottom of it. I've been using this because it's easier for me to work on my knee's, it does the ALAP in one cut, and out in the woods, it gets more wood from the tree and the mini can get over the stump easily.
Now conventional wisdom says this is wrong, have I just been getting lucky, or is this a fairly safe practice?
So far it's worked well, but I'd rather not get kilt because I was being a little lazy.
 
It isn't wrong and has advantages, but you should be aware of the possible disadvantages in doing the back cut that way. Some situations require the higher back cut rule followed, for sure. Pull trees, more control from the sound holding wood....the added safety factors, some room for error, etc. Jerry points out in his text that even given the general rule about it, in many cases there is really no need for a higher back cut, and has photos illustrating that.
 
Certainly not higher as a necessity. The stump shot of a higher backcut gives something for the tree to push back against if it lays into another tree that might cause the butt to push back over the stump toward the cutter who stands there watching, which has killed people.
 
As long as you are not doing that step cut of Murphys :lol:
I do it pretty even with the base of the notch often, as long as there is no chance of hanging it in another tree as has been mentioned, or having to really wedge the tree over (like stacking wedges). Afraid I might pop the hinge.
 
Stump shot also makes the hinge "taller", increasing bend radius.

But for most things, no; it's not a huge deal.
 
Stump shot is important in the circumstances listed above. How mobile are you? Are you kneeling next to the tree as it goes down or are you backing away into your safety zone?
 
I cut mine higher most every time. I feel it too gives a small margin of error in case the back cut is made at an angle by mistake. And i'd rather be high than low.
 
NeTree said:
Stump shot also makes the hinge "taller", increasing bend radius.

But for most things, no; it's not a huge deal.
Click to expand...

I've been wondering about this point, since the bend still has to occur mostly/ entirely at the line where the sloping and horizontal planes of the facecut meet. A gap face and whizzy seems to go along with you point. Would you agree/ disagree?
 
SouthSoundTree said:
A gap face and whizzy seems to go along with you point. Would you agree/ disagree?
Click to expand...

Depends. Stump shot doesn't change the sharp angle where the two parts of the face meet, but it does change the point where the back of the hinge bends from.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
Old Monkey said:
Stump shot is important in the circumstances listed above. How mobile are you? Are you kneeling next to the tree as it goes down or are you backing away into your safety zone?
Click to expand...

Decently mobile, I can't run, if that's the question! I mostly wedge everything anymore, just because and as soon as I see the kerf open on the backcut I am backing away. Tree doesn't fall, hit the wedge a bit more, not enough and I snip the hinge a hair standing up ready to evacuate.
I've learned how to position my body off the side of the tree while cutting, not leaning into the saw like most people want to do, which affords some safety, and I'm seeming to always ready to fall over backwards if the need be! (Insert your own joke there!)
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
I like two people for pulling, most of the trees are neutral lean and don't need much to go over and out in the woods I can't get the mini where I need to pull from without another half hour of work!
I have pulled quite a few, but the set up time and not having someone I trust on the mini limit the possibilities, in my mind at least.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
For the most part, I am doing it solo, I just worry about a set back or worse yet, the tree going backwards and nobody on the mini to pull against it! Stupid things that go through your mind!
 
I put a push spike (Death Spike) on my mini for pushing trees over. The Gehl's grapple's hanger's top bar so far is working the same way.

I pull by myself fairly regularly, snow big deal.
 
Current teaching for newbies in the UK is back cut level with bottom of face every time.

Reasoning is that a higher back cut makes it easy to accidentally overcut and turn a felling cut into a step cut, whereas if the cuts are level its a lot easier to see when you are running out of hinge.
 
I use a level cut almost every time; it looks better and so I don't leave a "tripping hazard," lol.
 

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The combination of a level backcut and a kneeling faller is not good.

The lack of stumpshot combined with lessened mobility of the operator will eventually bite you in the butt.

In an urban setting like Butch is working in, where the tree usually is falling clear of obstacles, no big deal.

In the woods DON'T DO IT!


As for the whole stump shot discussion, just buy Jerry Beraneks last video " Working climber, series three". There are two boxsets, " Felling the tree and limbing and bucking the tree" Almost 10 hrs of video!!!!!

He covers the whole thing so throroughly, that there is nothing left to discuss.

In fact, if you are falling trees, get that video. It is not a " how to do it" type video, but a frigging encyclopedia of tree falling.

I am spending my evenings with it right now, since Jerry was kind enough to send me a copy, and while a lot of it is bears testimony to the region that Jerry worked in, the biggest part of what I have seen so far is general knowledge, which will work all over the world.

I have been a professional tree faller since 1976 and still find stuff in that video that I didn't know.
Not to mention all the stuff that I just automatically do, but never have put into words or intellectualized.

Buy the video, folks, you won't regret it.
 
Erik mentioned a very interesting point, and impressive to read it. Something that Jerry discusses and shows in his series 3 vid, that the front and back of the hinge respond differently to the stresses as the tree goes over.

A lower back cut increase falling velocity, an advantage in driving through other trees. That seems often desirable in the pnw where the vid was shot. I was interested to see the fallers in the vid really getting out of there as the tree is going over, more so than one might anticipate. Including with the smaller trees.

Same way my evenings are currently occupied, Stig.
 
Exactly.
I really enjoyed the way Jerry demonstrates how it affects the fibers differently.


The only bad thing I can say about the videos, is that they make a lot of the discussions we have here moot.

The last word has been said on a lot of things with those videos!
 
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