What would you do?

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TreeDimensional

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Here is a job that we got called on. It is at a school, and they want the trees cleared away from the wall and the new roof and gutters. The facilities manager would like the crowns raised 3-4' so they can be mowed (grass) up to.

I know what I would be willing to do, just puttin' it out there to see what y'all would do!

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm265/TreeDimensional/Pending Jobs/lucky_lake_014.jpg

lucky_lake_014.jpg
 
Trim the big ones as the asked, then call and see how much it would cost to get the smaller ones moved out away from the building to prevent them getting butchered in the future?
Nah, where's the fun in that?
 
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  • #5
Interesting Andy. I would bet they were all planted at the same time. Any thoughts on why there is such a size difference? They are planted 8' from the wall.

Can someone tell me the ratio for tree caliper you would use when lookin' for a tree spade?
 
I think they were replaced as they died Brent, I really don't think they were all planted at the same time, using the closest one as a point, that is a fairly new plant, or a dwarf species?

As for the tree spades, the two limiting factors are root ball size and height clearance. Those wouldn't have to be roaded so height isn't an issue, but you'd have to determine the needed root ball for them, and I'm no help at all there!
 
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  • #8
Yeah B, that was my first though too.

My plan is to clear the wall and eave by cutting to a appropriate sized lateral. I explained the issues with crown raising. We agreed to meet in the middle. I will raise them enough to get a push lawn mower to the drip line, hew has promised to place mulch to just beyond the dripline. Keeping mulch put (for the first little while) is the friggin' wind we have here!

The ratio of trunk calpier to tree spade we use here is 12:1. Soil is the major factor for the roots. The soil here is a Dark brown heavy clay loam.

SO who would deal with the larger tree to the right of the pic, and it's co-dominant top?
 
Sun scald could be an issue if you raise the crowns hard... how severly could depend on the aspect, so if they are on the south side of the building it is likely, if on the north side it's unlikely...east or west, you will know better than I as you live there.

I can't tell the species, so my input may be less that directly applicable, but the FS has found that we can prune up to the lower 50 percent of the crown with Douglas fir without impacting growth rates (both height and radial increment) at all. Very low reduction in growth rates result from pruning up to 65 percent.

This seems logical, as these trees are genetically programed to grow in uniform aged stands after stand replacement events, competing for light with their peers. Natural pruning of lower branches occurs with all shade intolerant species, and natural crown/height ratios are similar to the numbers proven out in the pruning studies.
 
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  • #10
To the issue of size, I have seen a lot of variance in trees planted at the same time here. I have a shelterbelt of Picea pungens (Colorado Spruce). They were planted in 1995 from PFRA (Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Administration). They were tiny, less than 10" in height. The average size now is 10-12', but I have a couple that are barely 2 feet!

There is a soil anomaly where one lil one is, and as they are planted from the base of a hill to the top, water is a contributing factor to their size. The trees at this particular school are more than likely to be the same age.

Burnham, yes sunscald (or sunburn) is a consideration. So is wind evaporation on the bare soil that is usually found under evergreens here. Evergreens drop needles which in turn alter the pH of the soil turning is slightly acidic. This is believed to be their allopathic remedy to competition of other plants and weeds. Evaporation of moisture from wind seems to be huge. I have seen trees competing with grass and hedges, but that type of competition is small compared to the loss of moisture through wind evaporation. That is why I insisted that the CRZ be mulched if I raised the crown at all.

Like I said previously, the crown raise will only be high enough to get a push mower close. I leave my spruce trees touching the ground, kinda like letting the plant (tree) determine how it wants to grow. The School official did agree with me that his staff was lazy!
 
I didn't mean to suggest that you should raise them as high as 50 percent of total height, only that anything up to that will be unlikely to be detrimental to the tree's ability to thrive.

If one were to mulch the root zone, wouldn't that prohibit mowing under them anyway?
 
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  • #12
True B. The mulch is to keep moisture in and weeds out! Stinkweed will grow in acidic soils here. I would like to leave 'em be as far as the crown raise. The other issue for mowing is the fact that there are fairly permanent downspout extensions near a few trees!

With some clients compromise is a definate option.

I got ya about the crown raise, when I was on the road it seems it was always dark when I ran I-5, but yup the trees in your neck of the woods is a different crown ratio than here!
 
Plan to replace the trees. Wrong for the location. Plant now, phase out the trees after their replacements are well established.

Prune for building clearance until removal. Don't worry much about the co-dominant top, since the tree is in the wrong place.


Colorado Blue Spruce have huge surface roots around here. Mower/ root conflict out of the mulched area over time--both lose.
 
When I see great variance in sizes of trees planted at the same time my first suspicion is collaring roots or other root defects. If possible I try to push over or pull out the smaller trees, which often times I can as the roots have never spread beyond the original hole dug for them. What about taking out the smaller trees and replanting with something that makes more sense. Something columnar perhaps. What zone are you?
 
I would avoid raising the crowns, but if you have to then recommend mulching to the dripline. Are they P. pungens or P. glauca? I disagree that they are the wrong trees for the site. With proper clearance pruning and the installation of root barriers to control the potential to heave the sidewalk these trees could be assets for far longer than most of us here may live. However, educate them about size potential and the problems with large structural roots. If a person were inclined, a low maintenance landscape plan could be found to accomodate the trees and the maintenance staff.

A little mulch, little clearance and some education for the maintenance staff. I might try selling a report with recommendations coupled with an informational/instructional course on proper pruning for the maintenance staff.

Got any more pics of the little trees microclimates?

There may be a case here for a little Romeril spruce shaping...but seriously, you should see what the guy charges to turn a spruce into a large Christmas tree. I would bet that 5% of my work in Calgary was shaping spruce trees. Pole pruner provides the best results Romeril did this with much success, nodal cuts and the avoidance of topping are the biggest advantage. Hedge trimmer, or crazy saw is the fastest, but commonly leaves one internodal cuts and topping cuts.

I'm guessing the only pyramidal trees other than conifers would be either lombardy poplars or columnar aspens...do silver maples grow there?
 
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  • #16
Zone 2, the issue at the moment is that these schools have an administrator (facilities manager) that has a real hate for spending any money on trees. I was somewhat surprised they all weren't on the remove list. Yes the soil here can cause root issues. Especially if they were planted in sub-soil from the excavation of the foundation. It is what farmers refer to as "sour". Virtually dead soil that is inconsistent in pH and no organic matter.

One species that does well here and would be great for around a school (at proper clearance from buildings) is Swiss Stone Pine (Pinus cembra).

But getting allocation of money for purchasing trees is like walking into the lottery ticket store and only wanting the winning ticket! I can only plant the seed of thought!
 
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  • #17
A little mulch, little clearance and some education for the maintenance staff. I might try selling a report with recommendations coupled with an informational/instructional course on proper pruning for the maintenance staff.

Got any more pics of the little trees microclimates?

The micro-climate here is called the vast Prairie! And haven't you heard, root barrier doesn't work!

I looked at a guys trees on Saturday, he had barrier around all his trees and sadly all it did was promote circling roots. I suggested removal and mulch, his response was "where will I plant my flowers?" Hey at least I tried!!!
 
If done properly and maintained it does. You were talking about allelopathy for root control...what about changing the soil structure or characteristics. Imma not talking about throwing a little plastic in there and hoping for the best, more along the lines of what we discussed the other day. Discouraging the conditions necessary for root growth entirely.

I'm wondering why that tree is so little. I should have been specific.
 
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  • #19
I haven't had a chance to be on-site yet. Ha, I am the closest qualified arborist, and its 105 miles (one way) for me. We are going down on Saturday, when the lil snot-noses are around! And I don't mean mine!:lol:
 
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  • #21
Thats good Willie, in SK we call 'em somethin' a lil different!
 
Haha, I know your climate is a concern, if they were here, I would have no problem raising the large ones to just above the roof.
 
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  • #23
Mmmm Hmmmm!:lol:

Darin did raise a good point (and it didn't involve politics health or religion) and that is What are good trees for around a school?

Fruiting trees are a no-no especially if it is a K-12 school, the little buggers stomp the fruit on the sidewalks an walk in the front door. As mentioned earlier, if they are too close to the building, they climb then and access the roof. And liability issues abound with any species that have any potential to fail.

What would be a good species! One that will thrive in a hardiness zone or one that is safe for people to be around? Ya I know, risk is up to the managers of the facility.
 
What? I hardly ever post on the politics forum.

I was a daydreamer in school, I looked out into a world shaded by large oaks and drifted out into space. Looking out and seeing dark walls of conifers wouldn't do it for me. Do pin oaks or honey locusts work in your area? Ginkos?
 
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