Some advice, please

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Frans

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I felled this little Madrone. Used a doubled pulley to get some pull on it as I wanted to make it fall way to one side. The tree was leaning over pretty hard and I wanted to make it fall all the way to the side, and not land on any driveway.

Anyway, the tree did go the direction I wanted, but just not as far as I wanted.
In the pix, you can see the driveway it landed on, and the cut. On top of the cut you can see how the wood split.

My question is, how could I have done the cut better?
I tried to leave as much holding wood on the top of the cut as I could, I made the face shallow, but it still split, and didn't go over quite as far as i wanted it to.
Thanks,
 

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Dang Frans, I'd say getting a heavy head leaner to go 90 degrees to the natural lean is pretty tough to do no matter what tools you have at your disposal (unless you have a crane or can lift from above somehow). I don't ever even bother trying something like that. Perhaps some of the more experienced folks here have some better advice...
 
Madrone has an unpredictable hinge strength. I would have made my face cut level and and had the pull rope at an angle that would "support" the hinge and pull it over. Still maynot have worked as that was a severe side lean
 
I have been trying flat back faced cuts in that situation. What I have seen is that even perfect face cuts develop a dutchmen on the bottom as the wood compresses there. It ends up closing at the bottom and them gets ripped off the butt instead of hinging. With the flat backed face, and I mean a perfectly flat 4" or so back with not so much as a hint of kerf, the face doesn't close as early on the compression side and if it does the back strap seems to still hinge. I am still working on this technique though as it doesn't come up much for me.
 
It woulda helped tremendously if you woulda binded a chain around the upper part, and had more pulling power.
 
Looks like the back cut wasn't square with the face. When you cut through the bottom of the hinge, it sat down and then tore out the top.

And what Butch said about binding the trunk and using more pulling power.
 
Frans, your pics show some extreme tension and pressure forces at work. Typical of any heavy leaner.

The best bet it to use a line behind the tree and tensioned to support the weight of the lean. When done properly it can nullify the tension on the hinge and swing the tree to the lay.

Indeed it will, but there is a catch. Since the support line follows the direction the tree swings it needs the room to do it without being blocked by other trees.

Nice pics, thanks for sharing
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #8
So a load line set sos it supports the weight of the tree and acts as a pendulum?
I didn't think of that. Thanks all. I coulda done that.

As for a binder chain/rope, it is the bottom, stump which split, the trunk section only split a little.

Plenty of juice in the section I was cutting, but the top was dead
 
My thoughts....

You ate through the bottom of the hinge, in what looks like an attempt at tapering. Leaving some meat on the bottom and thinning out the top more might have been better.

I have no qualms about setting 2 lines in trees; one in the intended direction of fall, and one at 90 degrees to that to provide triangulation- opposite the lean- held tight by a come-along.
 
In the last picture it looks like you made your facecut right at a knot. That would be one thing to avoid, always find a place where the grain runs as straight as possible.
A vertical cut in the bottom of the face and then going 1½-2" up with your backcut can make the hinge more flexible. I always use the vertical cut on pull-trees, since it hardly takes time to do, and makes quite a difference.
Apart from that, like Jerry said: negate the sidelean with a rope.
 
Only if the tree was leaning in the indended direction of the fall. The Coos Bay is a method to prevent barber chair on heavy leaners, but you're not going to swing the tree to the side..
 
Stig, that's what I meant with a flat backed face cut. I'm not sure I explained that well.

What do you guys think of Willie suggestion to make the face cut level to the ground? I am not certain what I think about that.
 
I don't like it at all. The fibers run towards the roots at the bottom, so you'll likely have fibers running across the hinge, making it totally unpredictable, strength-wise.
 
Making a level face cut to fall a side leaner is going to give you a longer hinge across the stump. That is a given, but whether or not it provides any more strength has really never been proven. One thing for sure is the angle of pressure and tension on the grain of the wood is off kilt to that of a face cut made square to the grain. A lot of unknown there.
 
I've been in this situation a few times. Sometimes on the ground, sometimes while rigging limbs. I've come to terms that a hinge will only let you move the tree/limb SO far. I will often find myself wanting to fell something 90*, but know that gravity will overpower it, so rather than aim the notch 90* of the lean, I'll aim it 45*, thinking that I'd rather have a hinge that will be in use for all (or most) of the time while the tree is moving.

I like seeing options for letting me go a little further.

One question. Many times I have considered using the line perpendicular to the lean of the tree to "Counteract the lean." But as it falls, you have to let that line out. That seems like it would need to be a perfectly executed maneuver- maintaining enough tension to resist gravity in the direction of the lean, while LETTING out enough rope to let the tree go in the direction you want.

How the F do you manage that?

love
nick
 
Why would you have to? If you can get a line 180 degrees to the lean and 90 degrees to the intended fall line, it's fine to leave it; it's one side of the triangle.
 
I like and have used an overhead support rope like Jerry suggested.

do you have to eat the driveway? I remember you guys telling me that the madrone is quite heavy wood
 
Just to expand- I'm talking about another line set into a low anchor point; not up high.
 
I'm just rambling along in my mind here....
By putting your face cut 90 degrees to the trunk instead of the ground on a leaner like this and putting a rope in the tree, you really change the forces on the hinge. The force is now putting down pressure at the high point of the hinge. Also you are "swinging" down the length of the driveway as opposed to "tipping" the tree over. Good question Darin, you are making me think of the mechanics. I'll be curious to follow this thread later tonight
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21
tntree said:
do you have to eat the driveway? I remember you guys telling me that the madrone is quite heavy wood
Click to expand...

No, I was worried about the neighbor's driveway which I missed. The tree landed on my sister's driveway which I did not care about :O:|: seeing as I was working like a rented mule for free anyway :lol:
But no damage to either driveway.

Madrone is heavy wood, if it's wet. Otherwise it seems fairly standard in weight.


Hi Dave!
 
Some woods handle extreme tension and compression forces better than others. Split outs like you had with your madrone are common in many species. Darin's flat back face advice helps. Also, in brittle species trying to leave too much control wood on the upper/swingside corner of the hinge seems to cause more difficulty than it helps. A tapered hinge IS appropriate but try to avoid cutting through the lower/off-target side and leave the upper/swingside only marginally thicker. I have done what you did on that one many times-start the swing then it blows up.
 
Frans said:
No, I was worried about the neighbor's driveway which I missed. The tree landed on my sister's driveway which I did not care about :O:|: seeing as I was working like a rented mule for free anyway :lol:
But no damage to either driveway.

Madrone is heavy wood, if it's wet. Otherwise it seems fairly standard in weight.


Hi Dave!
Click to expand...

Hi Frans,

Now that I am semi retired, when can we film dropping a volvo (well maybe a yugo) on my BMG bollard?

Sorry Derail
 
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