ANSI, OSHA, CE, EN???

[OTGBOSTON]

I just finished reading all the threads on the buzz about the different ratings of saddles. Not only did I lose an hour of my life, I've got a headache and not alot of answers.

WTF is going on. Why would a harness be marketed to arborists but not fit our local safety standards? Why do all three of the local arb shops carry them?

Petzl makes plenty of harnesses that meet ANSI standards, why doesn't the sequoia?

looking for some insight without all the round and round double talk...thanks, G

[BostonBull]

Well I will say that the Euros have much stricter safety standards than the US when it comes to tree work. So I would think there endorsement would be held higher than ANSI?

All the double talk is because NOONE knows he answer and everyone has their own opinion on the subject.

Smoke an Onyx it will cure the pain!

[OTGBOSTON]

Smoke an Onyx it will cure the pain!

I do have a PUNCH on hand:/:

[No_Bivy]

IMO,...it's hog wash. 22kn is not good enough but 22.5 is? WTF!! I have climbed for 20 years. What's 50lbs? Petzl makes a great product....way stronger then the human body. A harness does not usually fail...only one that I've heard off( Todd skinner). To me ANSI has thier head in the sand......

[squisher]

Lol sounds complicated down there.:D

[OTGBOSTON]

IMO,...it's hog wash. 22kn is not good enough but 22.5 is? WTF!! I have climbed for 20 years. What's 50lbs? Petzl makes a great product....way stronger then the human body. A harness does not usually fail...only one that I've heard off( Todd skinner). To me ANSI has thier head in the sand......

Thanks John, I was aware of your position from posts at the buzz. How do you really feel about it;):lol:

[No_Bivy]

It's a tech weenie thing. Breaking strengths are not a good guideline. 5K is a lot, we eliminate a lot of usefull gear with that rule....it's a shame. 50 fricken lbs!!!

[OTGBOSTON]

I get that. Also understand that even at 15kn there is nothing to worry about. But why have rules if they aren't applicable to real life work situations?

[NickfromWI]

I have this funny feeling that there is a bigger difference between 22kN and 5000 pounds than most of us think. Why ELSE would it be a big deal. I'm wondering if life support things that are rated to 22kN aren't held to as high of quality assurance standards as the 5K pound stuff. It just doesn't make sense.

If it was apples to apples, ANSI should have no prob saying 22kN is way acceptable.

The other option is that it is just bureaucratic bologna. That could very well be the case, but I think there is more under the surface if we knew where to look.

I'm cool climbing on either. If I was a judge at a comp, I'd be happy to let 22kN pass....unless it was a piece of gear being used by a canadian!!! :/:

love
nick

[OTGBOSTON]

The harness in question is 15kn fwiw

[No_Bivy]

22kn held this fall. ANSI is a bit behind on technology:D

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[No_Bivy]

chalk bag tracer........:O

ok dude was insane...but still
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[TreeRhino]

I think the difference has to do with the measurement itself. Pounds or kilograms is a unit of weight measure while a newton and therefore a kilonewton is a unit of force required to move an object of a certain mass. Put simply, think of weight as a static load and kN as shockloading. That being said, it is true that the Europeans do have far higher safety standards than the U.S. and I think it isn't a safety issue. However, when an organization is holding an event, like a climbing competition, They are bound by their insurers to abide by the laws of their jurisdiction. In this case, ANSI and OSHA standards and therefore the higher Kn rating.

Also, in Europe their standards are more targeted to a particular industry while here, the standards are blanket standards that apply to not only arboriculture but all other "work at height" occupations. So, a widow washer requires the same strength of fall arrest gear as a tree worker despite the fact that the forces encountered by each and the equipment we use are dramatically different.

Anywho, thats my understanding and opinion on the matter. I could be wrong. Hope i didn't just further muddy the waters.

All that being said, I just ordered a Sequoia to try out. Should be here later this week.

[No_Bivy]

I wish I had a dyno-meter to measure forces myself......could be fun. KN or lbs,.....mute point, when most times it's operator error, not gear failure.:O

[OTGBOSTON]

I, when most times it's operator error, not gear failure.:O


what was the one example you know of (in a previous post)?

[No_Bivy]

Todd Skinner, belay loop failure. Harness was VERY worn. 5yrs plus, with lots of use.

[Frans]

Its simple really, I dont know why you guys dont know. Y'all need to take some geography lessons maybe...

O.k. Here it is:

ANSI, OSHA, CE, EN

ANSI= is a small town in Alabama, and OSHA is their sister city in OshKosh. CE & EN are some kind of places over in Euro land so who the hell even knows what they use as standards? I mean come on Metric system? What the hell is that anyway? No wonder ANSI & OSHA don't trust them!
:|:

[No_Bivy]

:O:lol: good one Frans!

[Wagnaw]

The metric system? What the hell is that anyway? No wonder ANSI & OSHA don't trust them!
:|:

That's what I think it is. Someone was doing shock load testing with "human sized" weights, they rounded up to 5000 lbs causes 5000 is a nice round American number, and they went online to convert lbs to kN, which told them 22.24 kN. Then they went on lunch break. :D

[No_Bivy]

That's what I think it is. Someone was doing shock load testing with "human sized" weights, they rounded up to 5000 lbs causes 5000 is a nice round American number, and they went online to convert lbs to kN, which told them 22.24 kN. Then they went on lunch break. :D

hey, I need a test dummy for my research....you in?:lol: friday......maybe a go...well see. Need some service hrs?

[TC3]

A city arborist will always have his (her ?) hands full with political crap.
Choose wisely.

[Stumper]

It shan't be long 'ere ANSI Z 133 is modified to acknowledge EU standards and 22kn rated gear. There IS a difference in ratings in pounds and Kn ratings when they are "equal" when converted. The diff is that kn ratings take dynamic forces into account while lbs of force is a technically a static measure. 5000 lbs was a nice, round, safe, but arbitrary number. ALL 22kn rated gear will almost certainly pass the 5000 lb tensile test (because gear is tested and rounded DOWN to the round number of kns below which no tested item failed.) The 15kn component level of some European saddles sets some heart to pitter pattering but it is NOT an obstacle to passing ANSI testing- The small side Ds on the original Ness Work Saddle (New Tribe) were rated at 2500lbs each-since they were designed to each support half the total load on the lanyard the Ness was ANSI tagged.

[Wagnaw]

you in?:lol: friday

Yeah I'm in. I have a test at 11:00 am, so we could meet you out there at lunch time. Maybe you could get in that crane job before we get there.

(Derail warning) Also, Camille just opened the saw she won... It's a rear handle Husky tree saw!!!! Like those 200T mods. Camille said you two should race em' :|:

[top hopper]

The small side Ds on the original Ness Work Saddle (New Tribe) were rated at 2500lbs each-since they were designed to each support half the total load on the lanyard the Ness was ANSI tagged.

My Ness isnt ANSI tagged.

[Frans]

My Ness isnt ANSI tagged.

They are now. I remember when Sophia was going through that process. A big hassle.

[Bounce]

I have come to hate the friggin safety standards. I understand why we have them, but when they're impossible to figure out, what use are they? ANSI stds are voluntary - you can't be fined for breaking them. However, the mandatory OSHA stds are a secret. Just try and find them. I dare you. The ever-so-helpful ISA and TCIA only sell the ANSI stds, which you get a gold star for complying with, but what about the ones you can be fined thousands of dollars for breaking?!? Why don't they make those available?

CE and EN are European stds, which simply don't apply to climbers in the U.S.

[Burnham]

I have come to hate the friggin safety standards. I understand why we have them, but when they're impossible to figure out, what use are they? ANSI stds are voluntary - you can't be fined for breaking them. However, the mandatory OSHA stds are a secret. Just try and find them. I dare you. The ever-so-helpful ISA and TCIA only sell the ANSI stds, which you get a gold star for complying with, but what about the ones you can be fined thousands of dollars for breaking?!? Why don't they make those available?

CE and EN are European stds, which simply don't apply to climbers in the U.S.

But they do apply to some of the equipment we wish to use here, Sean..therein lies the rub.

FWIW, the US Forest Service standards for climbing equipment accept both ANSI and CE tagged goods.

[OTGBOSTON]

.

FWIW, the US Forest Service standards for climbing equipment accept both ANSI and CE tagged goods.


that is good to know, thanks!

[Burnham]

that is good to know, thanks!

That's a change the Technical Advisory Group made in 2006. Used to be we referenced ANSI only.

[OTGBOSTON]

That's a change the Technical Advisory Group made in 2006. Used to be we referenced ANSI only.


I'll need all the ammo I can get if I run into an overzealous judge!

[JonnyHart]

I have come to hate the friggin safety standards. I understand why we have them, but when they're impossible to figure out, what use are they? ANSI stds are voluntary - you can't be fined for breaking them. However, the mandatory OSHA stds are a secret. Just try and find them. I dare you.
I thought ANSI write the standards, and OSHA is the enforcers of those standards?
I don't quite get it either. The magic numbers in my head are always 5400 lbs for rope and webbing, 5000 lb for biners and hardware. :|:

[Stumper]

ANSI standards are formulated by a committee of Industry representatives. OSHA makes its own regs but where specific regulations have not been established by OSHA that agency will fall back on ANSI standards. Neither are law. ANSI's are just what they claim to be STANDARDS- a set of benchmarks which have been deemed reasonable. OSHA "enforces" their regulations as if they were laws but as administrative regulations they are NOT laws and can only be given force of law with repsect to persons subject to OSHA administration. Most OSHA reps honestly think that that includes almost everyone but as a matter of law OSHA regs really only are PROPERLY applied to OSHA employees, persons bound by CONTRACT to observe OSHA regs and other persons who VOLUNTARILY grant OSHA enforcing authority.

[JonnyHart]

So how did my old bosses get socked with fines during storm damage work while the city was in a state of disaster for safety infractions? Can an insurance company, or having worker's comp. make a tree company bound by contract to observe OSHA regs?

[Stumper]

Jonny, Ther may have been a contract somewhere but have you ever heard the phrase "If you don't know and assert your rights you haven't got any"?
OSHA and just about every government agency proceeds upon the assumption that YOU are subject to their jurisdiction. Most of them really beleive it. They may even have been instructed in the "Cestui Que" Public trust. "The contract that is" People have to fight tooth and nail every step objecting that they are NOT volunteering to any contractual or voluntary jurisdiction. At this point part of OSHA jurisdictional claim on your old boss would be the fact that he paid their previous fines! It is a screwey and corrupted system.
I am a global warming skeptic-especially after the earth's mean temps dropped almost a full degree in 2007, but if there is global warming it probably isn't due to carbon emissions but might be generated by the friction of Thomas Jefferson spinning in his grave.

[sotc]

so justin, if osha shows up on my job today and takes photos of my one handing a chaiinsaw with one tie in and no steel toe boots. what would be my first move. hypothetically of course

[Stumper]

Stare at them blankly.

[sotc]

i can do that :D

[Blinky]

Wow... even I can do that! Cool.

[Bounce]

FWIW, the US Forest Service standards for climbing equipment accept both ANSI and CE tagged goods.

That may be Burnham, but the CE standards were developed by the European Union. By accepting CE and ANSI tagged goods, the USFS is simply saying they accept as valid both European and American safety standards. This makes good sense since both are well thought out standards of safety, but there is no requirement in this country to live by the CE standards. The CE mark is required on any product sold within the European union, and has no bearing on Americans. This is why most of the European mfgrs like Petzl put the CE mark on their products while American mfgrs like Weaver and Buckingham don't. Instead they put the ANSI label on their products because they are American companies who products are used primarily by Americans. Samson rope for example makes a version of Arbormaster specifically for sale in Europe that has the CE mark on it that you can't buy in the US. It's the same as the stuff we buy, but ours doesn't have the CE mark.

To hell with it all I say.

[Canuck]

ANSI doesn't mean shit up here. CE is the rule of thumb. Is equipment judged b ANSI standards for the international comp or do they allow non US climbers to climb on CE tagged gear?

[Burnham]

That may be Burnham, but the CE standards were developed by the European Union. By accepting CE and ANSI tagged goods, the USFS is simply saying they accept as valid both European and American safety standards. This makes good sense since both are well thought out standards of safety, but there is no requirement in this country to live by the CE standards. The CE mark is required on any product sold within the European union, and has no bearing on Americans. This is why most of the European mfgrs like Petzl put the CE mark on their products while American mfgrs like Weaver and Buckingham don't. Instead they put the ANSI label on their products because they are American companies who products are used primarily by Americans. Samson rope for example makes a version of Arbormaster specifically for sale in Europe that has the CE mark on it that you can't buy in the US. It's the same as the stuff we buy, but ours doesn't have the CE mark.

To hell with it all I say.

What I was trying to say is that by accepting both certification systems, we don't needlessly limit FS climber's choices of climbing equipment.

I agree, there is no requirement that US climbers live by CE standards...what I want is not to be limited to only ANSI standard gear. That was the way it used to be, and why we have added the CE to our accepted standards.