Cedar Transplantability? Bare Root Transplant?

[lumberjack]

Tomorrow afternoon I have to look at a cedar tree a Dr want's to move to his yard. He said the tree is 30' tall... we'll see.

Anywho, anyone have any experiance with cedars? If a tree spade isn't available, how about bare root transplanting using an air spade to excavate?

[NickfromWI]

YES! Bare root it!!! FK the tree spade (me no likey)

The big consideration is moving the tree. I have picked up trees that are 30' tall by myself. (dead, dry things) But there are some 30' tall trees that weigh thousands of pounds. If you can move it, go for it.

The other consideration is site compatibility. You're dealing with a teenager of a tree, so it may or may not like the new soil, sun availability, etc. The goal here would be to recreate as much as you can in the new home what you had in the old.

Get as big of a root ball as he can afford!

love
nick

[Mr. Sir]

I transplanted one about that size many years ago with a spade. It died within a few weeks, but that may have been due to neglect on the part of the homeowner. I'm not fond of tree spades either, and I try to avoid transplants.

[Skwerl]

I may have a chance to help with the boom winch on my bucket truck late Wednesday afternoon if I can get there before dark. I'm thinking that might not be possible unless I leave Tuesday night though.

Here's a smaller tree I moved with my truck last year. This one had about a 4' root ball.
He was in the middle of prep for new sod, that's why the yard is dead.

[No_Bivy]

don't bare root it....get as much of a root ball as possible...good luck:D

[TC3]

"Hey, Doc...You called me because I'm reputable. I'm an honest Joe & I wouldn't steer you wrong. I can do this job with no guarantee, because I will do my level best to do it right and with the best workmanship that I can offer, but life has no true guarantees."
Sound familiar, Carl ?

[treesandsurf]

TC3,

http://secure.isa-arbor.com/store/ANSI-A300---Best-Management-Practices-Planting-Combo-P300C4.aspx

and...

http://www.hortphys.uga.edu/pubs/JASHS,%20auxins,%20vinca%20and%20GasX.pdf

Good luck!

jp:D

[lumberjack]

The good thing is where it'll be planted is on the other side of the river where cedars are common (soil is better suited for them on that side, more pines on this side).

I'm confused though, Nick says bare root it, but get as big of a root ball as possible (I'm guessing you mean get as many roots as possible, sans dirt?). John says get as much dirt as possible.... How do I get dirt without using a spade? Excavator and drive beams under it?

We'll see how big the tree is, but I seriously doubt I'd get started on it before next week unless the doctor is in one helluva hurry ($$$$). Hopefully the tree is open grown because where he wants to put it would look funny with a 30' tree that was only 6" in diameter.

It'll be interesting, and of course, no guarantees.

What about time of the year? We're fully into spring flush now...

Time to do some reading :)

[Paul B]

I hate to be a stickler but what is a Cedar down your way? Are we all talking about the same tree?

I have done bare root but nothing very large, root ball with big spade I have done as well, I would say it depends on soil type, in sandy soil I think the spade might work fine, in clay it glazes up the soil and can cause soil interface issues from what I have heard.

You could hand dig it, drum tie it (burlap and twine) and use a crane to lift the rootball depending on access.

[lumberjack]

I seriously doubt we're talking about the same thing Paul as it's actually in the Juniper family and it aint called an Eastern Red Cedar (Juniperus Virginiana) for nothin. Common names suck eh? :)

I was thinking of digging and burlaping or boxing the ball. How do I cut/shape the bottom of the ball? When burlapimg it?

Spades aint what you could call common down here. Only time I ever seen one in person was... never.

I don't think bare rooting a tree of the size I'm thinking it's going to be, will be very forgiving to getting plucked from the ground.

[Skwerl]

I dug more than a few trees in years past. Start by taking your tree spade (looks like a round shovel but it's heavier and flatter, with no lip on the top) and sharpen the cutting edge. Then go to your tree and mark the diameter of your root ball. Use the spade to cut the first 6"-8" deep . DO NOT PRY ON THE ROOT BALL WITH THE SHOVEL! You cut TO the root ball, not into it. Once you've circled the tree and have the first 6"-8" cut, then dig outside of that mark exposing the top of the root ball. Continue cutting TO the root ball and digging down outside of it until you have a cone shape that is almost as deep as it is wide. The roots you hit will help you determine how wide and how deep to go. When the bottom isless than 18" wide or so, you can use your spade to cut it off underneath. Then you can wrap it and pick it up out of the hole.

A sharp spade will easily cut roots over 1" diameter. A dull spade will beat you up and waste your time. Keep a large flat file handy and resharpen the spade every hour or so. ;)

[lumberjack]

Ha that sounds like it'll work, but I'm assuming the tree will be 6" or better at the base. I'd assume at some point the depth to width ratio would flatten out some?

The tree is on a 300 acre "farm." If I find a better suited tree I'll try and sway him in that direction although I'll figure out whatever size tree he wants to move within his budget, whatever that may be.

[Skwerl]

I may be wrong but I seem to remember a 'rule of thumb' is about 1' out from the trunk for every inch of trunk diameter. A 3" tree would optimally have about a 6' diameter root ball, although it usually ends up being a bit smaller than that. Anything over a 4" tree is going to need some decent size equipment.

Also, I've seen 3" oaks and 6" oaks transplanted in the same general area at the same time. 5 years later the 3" trees were as big or bigger than the 6" trees. The larger trees take a bigger hit from the transplant shock and take longer to recover, so moving a smaller tree can result in a bigger tree in the future.

[lumberjack]

That's the same rule of thumb I've heard, 10"-12" per inch of caliper.

I'd also agree that smaller trees can surpass bigger trees.

Over about 10' of rootball and things will get interesting transportation wise.

[rumination]

Brian gives good advice. It also advisable to lift the tree by the root ball, not by the trunk, especially with larger root balls.

[lumberjack]

Make a diaper sling to fit under and around the ball?

[Paul B]

for larger rootballs I have dug a ditch around the tree then used the spade to undercut the rootball until it is basically sitting on a pedestal (pretty much what RJS said), then drum tie it with burlap and twine, fashion a sling of some sort to enable the crane to lift it up without causing more damage. I agree that the rule of thumb is about a foot of rootball diameter to inch of caliper.

here are a couple pics of one I did a few years ago with a HIAB, the crane guy didnt hear my request for him to not pull up on the chain, hence the chain was biting deep into the rootball. It did survive fine after transplanting though so in the end, all worked out. Japanese maple FWIW.

http://www3.telus.net/public/bali1/cut%20roots.JPG
http://www3.telus.net/public/bali1/on%20the%20deck.JPG

[Skwerl]

Slinging the root ball is good. I worked in a higher production nursury where they drilled a hole through the trunk and shoved a tire iron through the hole, then picked it up that way. After planting they stuck a wooden dowel in the hole and cut it off flush.

Smaller trees can be picked up by the trunk by wrapping tightly with burlap (or a towel) and then choking with a sling. Bark slippage is the enemy here, it will kill the tree if the bark slips badly.

Slinging the root ball will prevent the ball from falling apart though. They don't always hold together.

[lumberjack]

But how do you sling it? I think I remember Nothern selling a sling made just for lifting smaller root balls. Cargo net could work, but getting it out from under the tree would be an immense pain I'd think.

[Paul B]

agreed RJS, they dont hold together depending on the soil and root density. Another way I have seen used :shifty: is if there is a low, sturdy crotch on the tree is to wrap it with a number of burlap sheets as a cushion and rig a strap from the crotch to lift.

for a sling consider fashioning a couple of Kinedyne type straps or 4x4 tug straps around the rootball that leaves the 'eye's' at the top level enough to lift with. Around here I know of one landscaper that has a leather strap rig that is made just for that purpose, really cool rig but not for sale :(
his site:
http://mypage.uniserve.com/~aaaallen/specimen_1.htm
http://mypage.uniserve.com/~aaaallen/specimen_2.htm
http://mypage.uniserve.com/~aaaallen/specimen_5.htm

[Skwerl]

You're overthinking it, Carl. Think of a production nursury where they have lots of trees getting dug, one after another. Low cost and fast is the trick. Wrap with burlap, use a few cheap nails to secure the burlap in place and use twine to wrap and tie it secure. Then cut a couple lengths of strap material off the roll, loop a strap under the ball and tie it in a loop. Turn 90 degrees and repeat.

When planting, most just leave the crap on the root ball although I don't agree. The straps can be removed by simply cutting them and pulling them out. The burlap can be cut as low as possible after setting the ball in the hole before backfilling.

[Paul B]

I cut off or roll the burlap under the soil and cut all the twine most times.

[lumberjack]

The Dr finally found some nice cedars to transplant on the property adjacent to his. In the first picture you can see his house in the background.

The bigger of the two trees is roughly 7" in caliper, the smaller being around 5". Hand shaping the ball doesn't seem like it'd be that big of a deal, cut with a shovel, clear away behind the the cut with the mini to get room to work.

Figuring on a root ball 7' in diameter and 3' thick beneath the tree, any figures on how much it'll weigh? The tree is roughly 17' tall, so I can't lift from above without a crane or making a frame to lift it. One thought we had was to use the tractor's front end loader, put as much of the ball in/on the bucket, tie the top off, then pick/roll it back onto the loader. The other idea was use a mini ex (3.5 ton) to excavate away from the shovel's cut, pick and move the tree, and dig the bigger portion of the new hole.

Any theories on a fair price or a way to go about pricing? Sorry for being such a newb, as far as I know, nothing like this has taken place in my area.

Open to any and all ideas related to moving the trees :)

Big tree on right:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/Stanback%20Transplant/DSC00354.jpg

Big tree on left:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/Stanback%20Transplant/DSC00351.jpg

[Paul B]

LJ. if you can, tie the tree in, as in the green bits, start at the bottom and use half hitches like tieing a roast to get the branches under control and gussied up. Hand dig a decent rootball, burlap it as best as you can and figure some sort of a sling that you can lift out with the tractor bucket, if you have a hook or two welded to the tractor bucket it can make life easier. :)

FWIW, for rootball diameter I would consider going as wide as the canopy at the base, not necessarily the 1' to 1" rule of thumb.

[lumberjack]

The 1"=1' rule is roughly to the tips of the branches.

Tie the limbs in, folding them up, gotcha, good idea.

I can weld some hooks or a frame to the bucket, just gotta know what to do first. I thought about welding some forks on it, not sure yet though.


Any theories on a $ figure, even in your dollars will help me guestimate.

[Paul B]

hmm. I think a tree spade around here goes about $150 / hour.
to dig and move a tree like that across a property I would say about 1.5 man hours digging, 1 machine hour plus materials (burlap and twine etc).

[lumberjack]

Wow, I must be seriously overthinking things, I was planning on those two trees taking every bit of a day.

1.5 man hours=$100 + machine + materials= under $500

Does that include hauling the wad of excess dirt from the new site back to the hole where the tree was?

I'm feelin the newbness.

[Paul B]

considering I can buy a dug and burlapped 12-13' cedar here at a nursery for $150 or less...

We just planted 24 of them, delivered by crane. partially pre dug trench to plant them in, 3 guys 6 hours plus crane costs (sorry for the run on sentence).

[treelooker]

Paul is that a Thuja plicata?

4' apart???

[squisher]

Under $500 seems cheap to me, but I don't move trees.......in one piece.:D

[Paul B]

it is Looker. I advised them 3 times that this is NOT the right tree for this location. They had us remove a hedge of 7 to 8' smaragd (thuja occ. 'smaragd')cedars (the right tree for this place) and replace with the pictured trees (thuja plicata excelsa). Their intention as new homeowners is privacy for their pool area and they will likely be moving within 5 years. I let them know that 10 years or less from now that this will be a maintenance nightmare (trying to keep them pruned or having to remove every second tree) but they insisted, so we planted. Apparently I will be the lucky one to get to prune them while the clients live there, oh joy. :roll:

[lumberjack]

considering I can buy a dug and burlapped 12-13' cedar here at a nursery for $150 or less...

We can't buy trees this size locally. My first job was at a tree nursery, biggest containers we had were 45 gallons, caliper wise you're looking at 4-5" tops and their condition typically isn't that great. If a decent tree could be found in a nursery, that'd be great.

Here's an example of a Weeping Willow the Dr bought. It's almost 1" in caliper and about 85-90" in height above grade. A tree that size should be 3" in caliper, give or take. He paid $20 for it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/DSC00348.jpg

[MasterBlaster]

Caliper? (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/caliper)

[lumberjack]

The diameter of the tree 4" above the stump.

[MasterBlaster]

That's a definition somewhere?

[lumberjack]

Yep.

[MasterBlaster]

Ahh, I see now. (http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/extension/newsletters/hortupdate/nov01/art11nov.html) But it's 6 to 12 inches, not 4. :P

[Paul B]

around here the norm is to measure about a foot above grade for caliper. :)

[sotc]

diameter shin height :D

[MasterBlaster]

I've never heard it in that context in my life. You wacky landscrapers!

[THillMaine]

Learn how to drum lace...Its exactly as it sounds like lacing a drum. Our rule of thumb is 1 foot 10 inches with great sucess rates. Success rates will also depend on after care...Aqua neccisito mucho. Look iot up online I am sure you will find out how to drum lace...

[lumberjack]

Estimate is in, should hear from him in the AM.

Pauly learned me how to drum lace last night :).

[Paul B]

drum tie, drum lace, methinks the same idea. :)

Welcome thillmaine!

[lumberjack]

Estimate accepted, all engines at full, stand by for launch!

[rumination]

Cool, be sure to take pictures!

[Paul B]

yup/ pics and cost/profit analysis after, see if we helped you make money or made you lose some! :) hope it all goes well LJ.

[squisher]

Are you under 5 bills?

[sotc]

i was thinking twice that plus material

[lumberjack]

Price is $1400 +/- $200.

I'm predicting expenses will be around $700 I figure, counting Daniels time, but not mine, and not counting the mulch (we already have from 3yo chips) we're installing around the plants.

Gonna use an excavator to help expose the root ball.

Expenses in theory:
$260 excavator
$150 Daniel
$60 Typar/Topar and Bailing twine
$100 fuel (generous)


But I'm also not counting making a cradle to lift the root ball with my tractor. I already have the metal to build it though so it's mainly time. It'll take me 2-4 hours to fab it up I'm figuring, not working full tilt boogy.

Also not counting tractor time, but will be quite minimal (under 2 hours), but I figure that'll be offset when I use the excavator around here for some projects assuming we have some running time left on it.

Granted, this is all assuming all goes peachy and it doesn't count the hours I've already spent with the Dr helping him decide on trees and their new locations, nor the time I'll spend doing the work. I figure the time I spent learning from ya'll and others isn't billable as I'm getting way more out of it, thanks!

[Skwerl]

Good luck with it. The support roots should pretty much hold the root ball together, you mainly need to worry about chunks of dirt falling off and ripping feeder roots. A quick wrap with burlap and then something quick and simple to hold the burlap tight so you can pick it up will give you 90% of your root ball prep.

[lumberjack]

The topar is the black weed paper. It'll be removed before the root ball is burried, but it should offer support to the root ball and it's available locally.

[NickfromWI]

I can't wait to see the pictures, Carl.

I have a feeling it would have been safe to bid quite a bit higher. There is a chance that these trees are much more valuable to him than nursery trees ever would be. These are HIS trees.

Cool either way! I hope it works out well for you, him, and the trees.

love
nick

ps- I was recently taught by someone in the LA Urban Forestry Division that caliper is measured 6" above the trunk. I wish this was more consistent!

[lumberjack]

I talked to a local landscraping friend of mine. He was talking about having trees this size shipped in from some place north of Nashville (6 hours away).

I figured they would come from drastically different soil conditions and the price would be comparable or higher after shipping was figured in. These technically aren't "his", their on a neighboring vaccant lot, and yes, he got permission to move them :)

[lumberjack]

Today's the day. Ended up getting a mini ex for cheaper than I thought, RSC was sold out.


Got the tractor and mulch loaded, heading to the site to drop then off and pick the ex up. Daniel is coming by here to get the welder and other stuff I'll need from here in his pickup.