USFS NTCP TAG pictures...climbing in the desert

[Burnham]

OK, OK...acronyms suck :). U.S. Forest Service National Tree Climbing Program Technical Advisory Group. What an effing mouthful :lol:.

I am a member, representing the Pacific Northwest region. This is a small group of regional program coordinators and technical advisors who set policy for FS climbers.

This year we held our annual meeting in Scottsdale, Arizona. One day of debating program policy and one day of demo/research climbing, looking at some available options in technique and equipment that we may wish to incorporate into our training program.

We climbed in one of the very few actual trees on the Tonto National Forest, on the shore of Saguaro Lake, a reservoir on the Salt River.

I thought y'all might enjoy some pictures from the desert. Sorry about the smudge...apparently my photographer got some lip balm or something on the camera lens :(.

[Burnham]

One last one, of me using that cinch closure tarp/rope bag that Frans gave away last year...it works well for 150' of Poison Ivy. Thanks again, Frans!

[stehansen]

Is that a Modesto Ash Burnham?

[Burnham]

Sadly, a cottonwood Steve. Not a bad one, but nonetheless, a cottonwood.
:)

[vharrison]

Thanks for sharing!

[OTGBOSTON]

Just curious, in the pic of the kong ascender is that the 'wrong way' example?

[MasterBlaster]

Cool pics, Burnham! It looked like nice weather!

[Burnham]

Just curious, in the pic of the kong ascender is that the 'wrong way' example?

No sir, not to my knowlege. Please educate me.

Only thing I see is that the Klemheist is not dressed properly yet...but I'm new to the double line ascenders, so speak up, I'd appreciate any input.

[OTGBOSTON]

I seem to remember an article by Mahk Adams posted on the Buzz which had a pic of that as a no-no. Not sure of exactly why, I'll see if I can find the article.......Proper way is to back up both lines independently OR use two seperate lines.

[Burnham]

I recall a bunch of discussion and back-up knot invention on this subject, too. Truth of the matter, I'm afraid I dismissed the whole discussion as over-the-top back-up mania, but perhaps that's unfair and incorrect.

Was Nick involved with describing some sort of double prusik?

[OTGBOSTON]

http://www.treebuzz.com/pdf/CC_Jun07.pdf here's the article. And I too dismissed most of that discussion as over the top mania. Seems to me the easiest back up is the mini biner-through-the-small-hole-trick.

[Burnham]

Thanks, I'll do some reading.

[Burnham]

Well, I just read that article...and Mark (whom I have a lot of respect for) does not address the setup I pictured at all. I don't know why. He suggests a system similar to the one I pictured, but without the tether from the Kong ascender to the climber. So his objections may be valid for his assumption, but do not address the arrangement I used. Perhaps his concerns remain valid for my setup, too...I don't know.

Love to hear from others on this, please chime in.

[Frans]

Love to hear from others on this, please chime in.

Go to the desert to climb a tree, hummmm.

Thats about all I got right now, Burnham :P

[Burnham]

Chasing good climbing weather, brother. Last year we met in Boise, and it was cold and snowy. Year before that was in Portland, OR; rained like to choke a frog...we decided never again.

We have to meet in the early spring so the members of our group who are Smokejumpers are available, before training for fire season gets in swing.

[pete mctree]

I have seen the double ascender backed up with a blakes on each leg of the rope. 8mm cord was used, each leg tied to the ascender itself.
I have never seen the set up you show. How well does the klemheist stay dressed after a long ascent? That is does it remain tight enough to grip the lines?

[PCTREE]

Your dual rope ascenders open a small gap between the 2 lines so having a hitch around both lines will always have slack in it, if one cam fails you will fall. You have to have a hitch on each individual rope. I use a masdam system and have always wondered if the foot ascenders count as a backup.......

[Burnham]

I have seen the double ascender backed up with a blakes on each leg of the rope. 8mm cord was used, each leg tied to the ascender itself.
I have never seen the set up you show. How well does the klemheist stay dressed after a long ascent? That is does it remain tight enough to grip the lines?

The line I set was not long, Pete, only about 35 feet to a convenient limb to dismount onto. Over that distance, the klemheist seemed keep dressed and to grip fine if you settled down onto it, but that's not the same as losing grip on one cam of the ascender, so I can't say for certain. I obviously need to do some more R&D.

That tether is 10mm Beeline, a sewn eye and eye prototype that Tobe Sherrill sent me to test. It works great for conventional FL, and I just went with it over the top of Kong without much thought. Most of you recognize the climbing line, I expect...Poison Ivy.

[PCTREE]

just reread Petes post about 2 8mm tied to the ascender. What if the attatchement to the ascender fails just take the 8mm straight to your saddle. This comes from someone who used to free climb/ hook 100 oaks daily:( but if you go to the trouble of having a backup it may as well be safe:P:

[Burnham]

Your dual rope ascenders open a small gap between the 2 lines so having a hitch around both lines will always have slack in it, if one cam fails you will fall. You have to have a hitch on each individual rope. I use a masdam system and have always wondered if the foot ascenders count as a backup.......

If one cam fails, I will fall away from the klemheist hitch, taking the ascender with me, assuming the backup tether has some slack in it. The gap/spread between the lines would disappear within a few inches of movement downward, wouldn't it?

[Frans]

Yes, but would the prussik 'set' itself and cinch up on the rope?

[PCTREE]

one rope will be going up as other goes down, I dont know for sure if the hitch would tighten as it is in esensce undressed but as I say Im new to all of this fangle gizmo climbing. Put your line over something install ascenders with 1 cam disengaged , tie backup as usual and sit down . Worst that could happen is a sore arse............. Let us know...

[Burnham]

Yes, but would the prussik 'set' itself and cinch up on the rope?

It did when tested by just setting down on it Frans. I grabbed a footlock, eased up with the ascender, released off both cams and sat down on the hitch. But as I said, that's different than the situation of losing one cam. And it's only one test on one rope/hitch combination...we all know the variables involved there.


one rope will be going up as other goes down, I dont know for sure if the hitch would tighten as it is in esensce undressed but as I say Im new to all of this fangle gizmo climbing. Put your line over something install ascenders with 1 cam disengaged , tie backup as usual and sit down . Worst that could happen is a sore arse............. Let us know...

Right you are, and I will do so soon. Thanks.

[pete mctree]

I'd look at some of the comp climbers setups, they are at the front of these developments. I just remeber what I see.

[Burnham]

Now how would I go about that, my friend?

[MasterBlaster]

It's on TV. :P

[squisher]

Yah right! Anyways TV sucks.:D

[Burnham]

It's on TV. :P

:lol:8)

[MasterBlaster]

:)

[No_Bivy]

The desert is cool.................nice Burnham. I aint no tech weenie, but I'd ride that Kong backed up with a prussick. Mine has a rock exotica double above it...:D BIG ass cactus out there....:\:

[Blinky]

So No Bivy was right, you were out there felling cacti!

As for the ascender thing (and at the risk of inadvertently starting another bragging match), I picked this up from Mike Skillin, the current Southern Chapter AR wiz.

http://www.arborcarolina.com/_Images/Ascenders_BU.jpg

http://www.arborcarolina.com/_Images/Ascenders_TI.jpg

This is the application for the infamous one handed tautline feat. You, or I, or anybody can tie both of the backups over your ascenders at the same time... cuz the tautline is a true one-handed knot. Prussiks or Blakes are a bitch to tie one handed but the TL is sweet and simple.

Mike's backups are attached directly to the top of the ascenders, mine bypass the ascender body so my tether is backed up too. (didja notice that nice new blue ascender? Just got my REI dividend and a 20% off coupon; I've been stalking that ascender for almost year now.)

Seems like the Klem would hold but I'd test it pretty thoroughly... sliding 40' or 50' and grounding out would be... just, like... rude. :O

[No_Bivy]

do I spy a 22KN sling!!!!holy shat:O

[No_Bivy]

:lol:

[Blinky]

do I spy a 22KN sling!!!!holy shat:O
That's right, I ain't skeered. :evil:

[Burnham]

Thanks for the pic, Blinky. What's the cord you used?

[OTGBOSTON]

Here's the way I saw it done by the NE champ. Honestly haven't taken it for a test run myself, cuz I'm hooked on the rock exotica thingy without any back up:O

[Blinky]

Burnam, that's just plain 6mm cord from the rock climbing shop. I changed to 7mm because I found some that was softer and made a better knot... I'm not even sure what it's rated, it's strong though. Nice soft 7mm is perfect.

[Frans]

cuz I'm hooked on the rock exotica thingy without any back up:O

What rock exotica thingy?

[OTGBOSTON]

What rock exotica thingy?


dual ascender

[top hopper]

What about instead of independent back ups, securing the host line in a manner to which it wont run in both directions.

Like pulling up an alpine butterfly and choking the limb.

Burn, do you get to show them srt ascent methods? or just doubled line?

[OTGBOSTON]

What about instead of independent back ups, securing the host line in a manner to which it wont run in both directions.

Like pulling up an alpine butterfly and choking the limb.



I've seen it done with two seperate lines, one tied off at the base of the tree the other tied off at the high tip. Sounds complicated but the kid set it up super fast (Doug aka climb 020, who I haven't seen on the boards in a while)

the latest info on the alpine butterfly is that it can break with a relatively low shock load.

[top hopper]

the latest info on the alpine butterfly is that it can break with a relatively low shock load.

and where is that supporting data?

[OTGBOSTON]

and where is that supporting data?

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/FCRR-JD-0402.pdf/$FILE/FCRR-JD-0402.pdf

somewhere in here. WARNING it is a HUGE pdf :)

[Burnham]

What about instead of independent back ups, securing the host line in a manner to which it wont run in both directions.

Like pulling up an alpine butterfly and choking the limb.

Burn, do you get to show them srt ascent methods? or just doubled line?

Top, I did show my upgraded version of Tobe Sherrill's so called Tree Frog SRT system. I have replaced the footstrap with an adjustable one, and replaced the single left hand CMI Expedition ascender with the new CMI Expedition two handed ascender.

It's a pretty good system, though I think my old reliable modified Texas sit-stand system is easier to teach and learn. If you are going to climb a way long ways, ropewalking is attractive. The TF is a ropewalker of sorts, quite compact in way of components and the cost isn't as high as a Mitchell system.

No pics of the Tree Frog made it to my camera. If anyone wants, I could get some taken, at least of the components.

As to the choked limb method...even so, if the cam attached to the free side of the butterfly holds and the other leg fails, you would still fall, would you not? This is getting awfully fiddly...

[Frans]

No pics of the Tree Frog made it to my camera. If anyone wants, I could get some taken, at least of the components.



Yes please

[TreeRhino]

No pics of the Tree Frog made it to my camera. If anyone wants, I could get some taken, at least of the components.

...

Ditto on the pics please. I've been cobbling together the pieces and think i have everything but would love to see one set up. Thanks for all the info.