dealing with rising diesel cost

[Skwerl]

First, I'm hoping this doesn't turn into a political discussion of oil markets. Just keeping it on a personal, local level on how I'm dealing with fuel costs. Today I bought a $35 Sam's Club membership for the sole purpose of being able to save 6-10 cents per gallon on diesel. There's a Sam's Club less than a mile from me and they recently put in fuel pumps. They are 6 cents cheaper than my usual place, which is one of the cheapest in town and they are 10 cents cheaper than the Mobil a block down the street.

Now I average about 50 gallons of diesel per week (or at least I did in my old truck) and I fill up my pickup about 2x-3x per month. My savings of .06 on diesel works out to $144 per year. My savings on gas is about $36. So my fuel savings will more than pay for the card, not counting the ability to shop at the store for other stuff. At first I dismissed the idea of paying for a membership in order to 'save money' on stuff. I've been burned on these type of programs before so I generally tend to avoid them. But I ran the numbers and the savings is substantial enough to justify the expense.

I've also been told that I can fill up with no preset limit on the pump (usually $75 at most places). I'll find out if that is true next week when I fuel up the big truck. With 100 gallon capacity, it's a PITA only getting 18-20 gallons at a time when you pay at the pump and I'm not keen on walking inside (twice) and leaving my credit card with the zit faced kid behind the register at the 7-11. If you try to use your card twice at the pump to get more than $75, it tells you to 'see the clerk inside'.

If diesel stays at or above $4 per gallon, I may implement a fuel surcharge. Or else just raise my rates by $5 per hour. Fuel is my single biggest monthly expense except for my truck payment.

[rbtree]

I use a Chase CC that gives 3% back....and my Discover card offers 5% off, limit is $120 a year in rebates, I think.

A Citicard used to give 5% back with a high cutoff, now that card is down to 2%.

Every little bit helps.

[okietreedude]

I dont have a sams here but the walmart is 1/4 mile from where i park. I have a walmart discover that saves me 3 cents and if I use it at a sams (i do have a sams card), I can get 6. I noticed the other day theyre preset limit increased. it was 100, I got 110 and it never shut itself off due to $.

The other convienence stores most times will turn on the pump for me. 1)im in there all the time, 2) my name is on the side of my truck...you really think im gonna drive off? I asked once if they would up the limit and they told me it was up to the card company. okay, whatever. i know better.

Here, the diesel is 3.68. Im considering a fuel charge too. Im also really watching how much time the chipper is spend in high throttle.

[Mr. Sir]

My Sams Club doesn't sell diesel. :-( But I do buy gas there most times.

I'm considering the fuel surcharge also. Maybe $1.00 per mile? With Mapquest, it's easy enough to calculate the distance from the shop to the job. I'm also considering a separate line item on the estimate for dump fees. In the past, it's always just been part of the hourly rate, but with rising dump fees...?

[No_Bivy]

4.05 here......surcharge here I come:P

[TC3]

The Costco here is brutal. No diesel that I know of, but everybody acts like it's the last day on earth to get fuel, & they're a**holes about it. Not worth it to me for the $.08 savings.
Maybe look into off-road fuel tax rebates & try to see some savings there ?
Diesel was supposed to be cheaper, but I don't witness that in Michigan.
Pimped again.

[Newfie]

Maybe look into off-road fuel tax rebates & try to see some savings there ?

Not if you are using on-road equipment.


Diesel is $4.08 here. My neighbor is thinking about brewing bio-diesel. I told him I'd go in on it with him. We'll se what happens.

[Greenhorn]

I'm wondering at what point a gas 366 chip truck is going to be cheaper than my 7.3 diesel, guess I gotta go do math - less maintenance factors in a bit too. Anybody good with spreadsheets - would be neat to make one with mileage vs. cost of gas and diesel.

[sotc]

i get 3 cent discount at safeway all the time and every time my total in the grocery comes to 250 bucks i get a 10 cent discount. pumps shut off at 75 bucks though:( or id fill all my trucks on 1 pump :)

[Paul B]

my truck ( gas sucking pickup with dual 70 liter tanks) gets crappy mileage, I have an Esso (aka Exxon) fleet card that saves me 2.9 cents on the liter, our fuel is about 1.21 a liter currently. My pumps cut out at $100, I am too lazy and too grumpy to go inside and ask the clerk to let me pretty please have another chance to spend even more money at their establishment.

[vharrison]

I like the idea of a fuel charge and have been thinking about it. I don't think we could get away with 1$ a mile down here, just because of the logistics of the county we serve. I guess our pumps don't shut off, I see 200$ gas tickets just about every day from one crew or another. :whine:

[vl2007]

I'm concidering a surcharge when regular gas goes above $3.70. I'm thinking charging a flat fee per invoice, not by the mile.

[sotc]

I am too lazy and too grumpy to go inside and ask the clerk to let me pretty please have another chance to spend even more money at their establishment.

im with you paul, i figure if their pump shuts off at 75 bucks, someoneelse will get the rest of that purchase next time. idiots

[stehansen]

I don't have a Sam's Club anywhere close, and the Safeway is about 10 miles away. Wal-Mart is putting in a superstore about a mile away from me. Will they have fuel at one of those? I just figure a little extra in each bid and I do hourly work so very seldom. For most jobs that I do fuel is a actually one of my smaller expenses. The other day I did a 1K job and had $200 for labor and probably $40 in fuel, plus about $10 in fuel to bid the job. If I have a job out of the area then I would probably put an extra hundred or two on the bid for fuel. My local fuel place shuts the pump off at $50. Talk about ridiculous. There is an AM-PM close to me and they have great gas prices but they don't have diesel. So to answer Skwerl's question I'm not doing anything other than upping the bid a few dollars when I'm bidding.

[Frans]

I see 200$ gas tickets just about every day from one crew or another. :whine:

:\: sure they are not filling up their own trucks at the same time?

[wiley_p]

I average 1300 miles a week. Fuel is now hitting over 4.00, you bet your ass I'm charging for the cost of fuel and the travel time.

[brendonv]

:\: sure they are not filling up their own trucks at the same time?


I dought it Frans. To fill my piddly 1 Ton and small chipper I am looking at over $150 easy.

I am pretty sure V has some serious trucks.

[stehansen]

My neighbor the fuel guy was telling me about hauling some fuel to the service station in Yosemite Park. He has 4 big rigs hauling fuel but didn't have time to make a delivelry to the service station in Yosemite Park so he hired a competitor to deliver it for him. The competitor charged him by the mile and then tacked on a 15% fuel surcharge.

[Che]

Maybe look into off-road fuel tax rebates & try to see some savings there ?

We claim the off-road fuel tax for all our diesel as it's for tractors only. EASY to do.....just keep the receipts and total the # of gallons you've used that year. It's a one page form that even I could understand.

We claim 50% on the truck gas as they're driven off road most the time also.

[Skwerl]

$200 is 50 gallons. Most big diesel trucks have dual 50 gallon tanks and the Bandit 250xp has a 40 gallon tank. If the chipper is low and you put 30 gallons in it, and throw another 20 gallons in the chip truck you're at $200.

[fallguy1960]

The thing that gets me is it was a 3 cent a gallon discount 10 years ago when gas was 1.00-1.30. Now its still 3 cents and we are past 3.00. It isn't even 1%. My wife uses coupons at the grocery store and she can get .25 off a dollar item many times.

[Koa Man]

My AMEX business credit card gives me 5% cash rebate on single fuel purchases up to 75 gals. 3% on dining out and 1% on everything else. Rebate check is sent out every February. This year I got back $873. They also show you the break down on how the rebate was computed. Diesel here just went up to $4.01/gal yesterday. It was $3.89 the day before that.

[sawinredneck]

I dont envy you guys right now!! It's going to come down where you will either have to start charging to do bids, or try and line up bids in the same area/time to be able to afford it!!!!
I would run offroad in EVERYTHING I could!!! Chipper, skidsteer whatever you can think of!!
Bio-deiesel is a neat option. But not without its faults! It is VERY costly to get into, $2k-5k is pretty easy to drop. The fod service has caught on to it around here and are now charging people for used cooking oil! Then you have to buy the other needed chemicals, and have a place large enough to set up the tanks and store fuel.
I think the last time my buddy looked at it, it was around .65 a gallon to make it. Thats just materials, no time in finding the oil, or time spent mixing it.
If you can get you're ducks lined out, it can be a viable way, just a lot of little details to work out!

[squisher]

Diesel here on Friday when I filled was 1.279/litre and propane that I run my pick-up on is .789/litre. Propane rules!

My bucket and chipper can easily take $200 worth of diesel without being that low at all. I deal with a cardlock so no pumps kicking out before I'm done filling.

[Frans]

I dont envy you guys right now!! It's going to come down where you will either have to start charging to do bids, or try and line up bids in the same area/time to be able to afford it!!!!
I would run offroad in EVERYTHING I could!!! Chipper, skidsteer whatever you can think of!!
Bio-deiesel is a neat option. But not without its faults! It is VERY costly to get into, $2k-5k is pretty easy to drop. The fod service has caught on to it around here and are now charging people for used cooking oil! Then you have to buy the other needed chemicals, and have a place large enough to set up the tanks and store fuel.
I think the last time my buddy looked at it, it was around .65 a gallon to make it. Thats just materials, no time in finding the oil, or time spent mixing it.
If you can get you're ducks lined out, it can be a viable way, just a lot of little details to work out!

14 exclamation points! A new total! :roll:

[sawinredneck]

But see if I dont use puncuation I get in trouble I use what I think I should I get in trouble Talk about anal Man what to do

[Frans]

!!! HANG IN THERE BUDDY!!! ITS ALL GOOD!!!! ;)

[MasterBlaster]

What? Anal Man is here???

[Old Monkey]

Are you saying he takes things the wrong way?

[okietreedude]

sawin,

the prob w. off road deisel, its not easy to find. its bad enough finding deisel, in my town, there are 2 places that have the off road type. both are out of my way by 8 miles.

[High Scale]

Looks like you guys are catching up with us on fuel prices.

[Big A]

Its getting beyond a joke now, unleaded petrol at my local station is £1.09/litre, diesel at £1.13/litre, and the owner said it has to go up by a penny a litre at the next delivery!! :what:

[blue]

mind you engine size's are alot smaller over here so our vehicles get a better MPG.

well some do just not mine

[High Scale]

mind you engine size's are alot smaller over here so our vehicles get a better MPG.

well some do just not mine

Haha, that scooby must drink the stuff.:)

[blue]

Haha, that scooby must drink the stuff.:)

20mpg as an average but start pushing the loud pedal to much and that drops to around 10-12mpg:O

[Skwerl]

20mpg as an average but start pushing the loud pedal to much and that drops to around 10-12mpg:O

How do you know about miles per gallon over there? I didn't think you used miles or gallons.

[High Scale]

Yeah we do, we have a odd system, metric and imperial.

[Canuck]

Our pumps shut off at 100 litres here. I have a fleet card at a station that caters to commercial clients though and using it I can fill to the credit limit on the card. $1000 limit on the card so I just have to watch the balance and make sure it doesn't get too close to the max. I pay it off the 1st of every month and usually have to pay it down once or twice a month. They've offered to raise it but I just tell them that I'm quite happy with a grand and just keep it the way it is.

[Newfie]

sawin,

the prob w. off road deisel, its not easy to find. its bad enough finding deisel, in my town, there are 2 places that have the off road type. both are out of my way by 8 miles.

Off road is an option for me, but the REAL problem with off road is the fines they hit you with when the DOT officer dip tests your tanks and comes up red on a registered vehicle.

Diesel when up 8 cents last night, sitting at $4.16.

[Jonseredbred]

$4.29 per gallon for diesel here. A bucket truck, chip truck w/chipper and a loader truck cost's me about $400.00 per day to keep fueled.

I see a dismal year ahead in the tree business here.

[stehansen]

Off road is an option for me, but the REAL problem with off road is the fines they hit you with when the DOT officer dip tests your tanks and comes up red on a registered vehicle.

Diesel when up 8 cents last night, sitting at $4.16.

I could probably do that also but they have truck safety check points around here and they check for red diesel in the tanks.

[sawinredneck]

I am not encouraging red fuel in the trucks, but I would certainly run it in the chiper and skidsteer. They can't check them.

[stehansen]

I am not encouraging red fuel in the trucks, but I would certainly run it in the chiper and skidsteer. They can't check them.

I thought they could check the chipper.

[Skwerl]

The chipper isn't burning the fuel to propel itself down a Federal highway.

[sawinredneck]

The chipper isn't burning the fuel to propel itself down a Federal highway.

Correct! Yes it's tagged, but is technically an off road use because of what Brian said.

[Newfie]

I've had my chipper tank dip tested.

[sotc]

chipper is legal to burn off road.

[squisher]

Yah here too, chipper is legal for marked.

[Koa Man]

Any vehicle or equipment that is not driven on a street or highway can use red fuel. A pickup used only on a ranch or farm can legally use red fuel. A chipper and skidsteer can use red fuel with no problem. I can't see why a DOT officer would dip the chipper's tank, maybe he or she was just stupid.

[Newfie]

Stupid or over-zealous.

[rumination]

How are gasoline prices comparing to diesel these days? Does anyone have any info on how bio diesel prices (B20-B100) have been doing?

I'll be coming back to the US in May and will be buying a vehicle and driving some long distances. I'm trying to decide on what I should buy. I do really want/need 4x4 for some of the places I will be going, and I also want something that will make a good work vehicle. Anyways, fuel prices and mileage are starting to play a larger role in my thinking.

[Newfie]

Diesel seems to be running about a dollar/gallon ahead of regular(87) gas around the northeast. $3.11 this morning

[brendonv]

$3.33 gas, $4.22+ Diesel.

Thank god for my Toyota.

[stehansen]

Diesel is about 50 cents more per gallon here. I think the red diesel is about 60 cents less than clear diesel. I have a 100 gal. tank with a hand pump on it and I will fill it up with red diesel for the chipper and the tractor. I can also put it in the tractor that I work my orchard with but that only uses 20 gal./yr. I have been using about 5 gallons/day in my chipper lately but usually I don't use that much.

[vharrison]

I'm concidering a surcharge when regular gas goes above $3.70. I'm thinking charging a flat fee per invoice, not by the mile.

What are you thinking per invoice? I was thinking along those same lines.

[Koa Man]

I told my son-in-law that we should start charging for bids, except for established customers. Even a token amount like $5, which would be credited back if we got the job. That would help pay for some of the fuel costs and weed out the shoppers who like to call everybody in the YP to try and save $10 on a small job.

[squisher]

That sounds like it might not be a bad idea Wesley, a small enough amount that anyone who is serious at all won't be put off by it but an actual amount so the window shoppers will pass. I'm gonna think about that one, our area here is widespreading I mean I could be driving anywhere up to 40minutes in any direction to give a free quote. Now I know it's just part of doing business but I've been leaning more to questioning the people on the phone more to find out if they're just price shopping or what. I've been offering up hourly rates to thos furthest out that seems to help seperate the lookeyloo's as well. When I tell them my hourly(and heh I'm reasonable) for two guys truck and chipper and I hear them pucker on the other end of the phone I pretty much know it's gonna be a waste of time.

[treetx]

This morning at the local station, 3.99 diesel, 3.23 gas.

What I can get my head around is why diesel is more expensive. It costs way more to crack oil into gasoline than it does to make diesel.

Diesel prices are moving up but at a drastically higher rate than fuel stock prices are increasing (oil). So rising cost of oil isn't the problem.

In other countries, diesel is cheaper than gas.

[sotc]

supposedly its the low sulfer refining:dur:

[Thor's Hammer]

Nonsense. sulfer refining indeed :roll: Low sulfer diesel should be cheaper...
Diesel was once a dirty byproduct of the petroleum industry, that they struggled to find a market for. it was only when lightweight versions of Rudolph Diesel's engine became available that they found a market, although its common knowledge that Dr Diesel designed his engine to run on peanut oil....

[sawinredneck]

...........And Henry Ford designed the Model A to run on Hemp oil.

Put that in you're pipe and smoke it:P

[treetx]

That is what I had always thought too. They are hard on sulfur as it has to be below 15ppb.

I thought that was also the case in Cali for gasoline too.

Ok, so we have cleaner diesel and dirtier gas?

[Mr. Sir]

There are more taxes added to the price of diesel fuel.

[sotc]

taxes are about 48 cents a gallon here, which happens to be waaay more than the oil company makes

[Frans]

o.k. you have all been more than fair in presenting why diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline.

The fact is, Americans are at the mercy of people who don't care about America or it's people.

[Big A]

I think its something like 68pence per litre tax over here in good ol UK See the price went up again today, 109.9per litre now!! :(

[vl2007]

What are you thinking per invoice? I was thinking along those same lines.

I'm going to calculate the increase, then average out my invoices from last year, and come up with a fare amount. I'm not out to make a profit, I just need to cover this gas gone wild increase. The market will except only so much of an increase, after that they will go to the cheaper outfits.

What's your take on this, sound fare?

[treetx]

I heard the red diesel is different and that it will fould up a turbo diesel. True?

[Skwerl]

No, Nate. Red diesel is the same as road diesel but it has red coloring added to indicate that road taxes are not paid on it.

In 2008 new laws were put into effect requiring low sulphur diesel for road vehicles. If there is any high sulphur diesel left in the system then perhaps it may be destined to get red dye and sold for off road fuel. But it's still the same diesel that was sold at every pump until the end of last year. Most of the new 2008 model diesel trucks have catalytic converters that will be damaged by high sulphur, so they require the low sulphur diesel.

Oh, and my buddy Tim with that sharp looking 2006 F350 Harley Davidson edition truck has been running red diesel for the last year.

[squisher]

Umm nope every piece of logging equipment I've ever been around has run dyed and they're all turboed.

[sawinredneck]

I heard the red diesel is different and that it will fould up a turbo diesel. True?

I'll say false!! I've seen it run it numorous turbo skisteers, wheelloaders and road graders without issues. I've even known a few guys, NOT RECOMENDING THIS, leave clear fuel in the tank, then tap into the fuel line with the "farm tank" they haul in the bed full of red, on Dodges and Fords.
Sounds like someone wants you to pay the premium.

[sotc]

i dont think that would accomplish anything andy. the return line would still dye the tank

[sawinredneck]

i dont think that would accomplish anything andy. the return line would still dye the tank

Who says it has to return to that tank;)

[No_Bivy]

fine is steep:Onot worth the worry...Do you have to pay road tax if you brew your own Bio diesel???

[sawinredneck]

fine is steep:Onot worth the worry...Do you have to pay road tax if you brew your own Bio diesel???

I did say I didn't recomend it!!!! But I didn't say it wasn't doable.

Right now that is a gray area. There is talk of that on a Fedral level, but they don't really know how to do it.

[Newfie]

Do you have to pay road tax if you brew your own Bio diesel???

I was wondering the same thing.

[rumination]

Anyone have any biodiesel producers in your area? If so, how do biodiesel (B100) prices compare to standard diesel?

[No_Bivy]

bio = mo money here..B20/b85..

[rumination]

Bummer. I remember before I left Hawaii the l was told that the local biodiesel producer was actually cheaper...

[squisher]

We're all getting the shaft diesel is more than gas here too. Fuel companies are sticking it to everyone and the government isn't going to protect us because they're getting a giant windfall it's just like another way to tax us. Hmm let's see should we stop the guys who are lining our pockets with campaign contributions and what not from making billions when as they raise prices it makes us more in taxes. That's a win win for all the scumbag politicians and big business. We're all screwed!

[Reddog]

The fine for off road in a commercial truck is like 15 or 25K at the Fed level.

No gray area Andy, if you are commercial you need to pay all state and Fed road tax on bio. Even Red has energy tax on it.

Rumination, the only Bio I can find here is 2% and it is 5 to 10 cents more.

[sotc]

Anyone have any biodiesel producers in your area? If so, how do biodiesel (B100) prices compare to standard diesel?

way higher here, and the government subsidizes it. ill try and check tommorow, theres one place in the valley that i know of.

as far as the dye and even home brew in highway vehicles, its all tax evasion, they just havent figured out how to enforce the home brew stuff

[Koa Man]

The fine for running red diesel is $10K plus $100 per gal. of tank capacity. So a pickup with a 35 gal. tank would pay $13500. A commercial vehicle with a 100 gal. tank would pay $20K. When you consider that the difference between off road and road diesel is 65 cents per gal in Hawaii, $13500 is the cost difference for buying 20,769.23 gals of fuel. That's enough fuel for me to drive about 17 years.

For those that want to run off road fuel, you do the math with your own driving and cost differential to see if it is worth the risk of getting caught.

[vharrison]

I'm going to calculate the increase, then average out my invoices from last year, and come up with a fare amount. I'm not out to make a profit, I just need to cover this gas gone wild increase. The market will except only so much of an increase, after that they will go to the cheaper outfits.

What's your take on this, sound fare?

I am with you on the not trying to make a profit, just want to cover the increase. I have not come up with a formula yet, but a flat rate per area might work, like so much to go to Key West, so much to go to Islamorada and nothing to stay in Marathon. Key Largo, forgetaboutit, big bucks. :lol:

[Frans]

Be carefull driving your newer diesel down to mexico or baja. Fuel sold there is the older sulphur fuel

[Koa Man]

All the ready mix concrete companies here have charged for deliveries for years. Luckily for me, the biggest one is based in Kailua [where I live], so all the other companies match there delivery rate $45. To go out to the North Shore of the island, $280. This was the middle of last year. I don't know what the current rate is. Matson just raised their fuel surcharge 33.75%.

[sawinredneck]

Yes, we ae all SCREWED for sure!!!!

Sorry, the "Gray area" I was reffering to was the homebrew stuff, like Steve was thinking of making. I should have been more specific.

[vl2007]

I am with you on the not trying to make a profit, just want to cover the increase. I have not come up with a formula yet, but a flat rate per area might work, like so much to go to Key West, so much to go to Islamorada and nothing to stay in Marathon. Key Largo, forgetaboutit, big bucks. :lol:

Good idea. I've recieved no neg. comments from clients i've spook to about an increase so far. Most respond with, "everyone else has raised prices, you should too".

[Al Smith]

For the record Henry Ford's first engines were designed to run on alkie but gasoline was cheaper. Actually a Model A will run on kerosine if you first get it started on gas . Rudolph Diesel used powdered coal in his early endeavers until he blew one apart nearly killing some people.

I don't know if this applies but often "Flying J " has discount prices available for fleet sales. Fact is I got the discount when I ferried the motor home back from central Fla two years ago .It might be worth checking into .What the heck,a couple of hundred a year is a lot better in your pocket than in the coffers of some oil company .;)

[sawinredneck]

Al, it was my understanding when the model A came out Henry had designed it to run on Hemp oil, as he was big proponent of Hemp products as a great cash crop?
Gasoline was, at the time, nothing more than a waste by-product from the refienment of oils that they didn't really have a use for at the time?
Does this sound right or am I missing something?

[Stumper]

Small towns do have advantages. I burn perhaps 30 gallons of fuel per week average-10 in the chip truck, 10 in the chipper and 10 in the pick ups. Of course several removal jobs in one week can double the usage in the chipper and an out of town trip wreaks havoc with the P-up usage. I'm just adding $25 per estimated hour to every job 'cause I underbid everything and that will put me close to actually earning something over expenses.:|:

[treetx]

Ahh, I love diesel.

15 gallon tank.

Filled up in Ft. Worth, drove to Oklahoma City, then back down to Austin without filling up.

Gallons: 15
Miles: 605
:)

[Al Smith]

Al, it was my understanding when the model A came out Henry had designed it to run on Hemp oil, as he was big proponent of Hemp products as a great cash crop?
Gasoline was, at the time, nothing more than a waste by-product from the refienment of oils that they didn't really have a use for at the time?
Does this sound right or am I missing something? Well there were two model "A" 's. The first was early on prior to the model T ,maybe 1905 or so then came the model B then T and finally the more we known A.

Henry,being Henry most likely tried every thing from Alkie to tupintine. He was just a tad bit eccentric as were a lot of the early pioneers in this then new invention .

Mr. Diesel tried about everything too. After the experiment gone wrong with the coal dust he used a bunch of alternate fuels, peanut oil being one of them. Because of the nature of a compression ignition engine they will burn just about any thing you can get through the injectors that will ignite. If you could figure out how to use sawdust you would have something.Of course the price of charcoal briqutes would go up because sawdust is what they are made of.

Now the hemp is another story. During the years of WW1 they planted acres of it to grow fiber for moring lines for naval warships and I guess the stuff just then grew wild in nature.
I don't know why the big deal it is a weed ya know.;)

[Banned by Squirrels]

Can we talk politics yet?

[sotc]

wrong forum:)

[Chisel Tooth]

wrong forum:)

Are you sure about that?

[lumberjack]

Ahh, I love diesel.

15 gallon tank.

Filled up in Ft. Worth, drove to Oklahoma City, then back down to Austin without filling up.

Gallons: 15
Miles: 605
:)

That's 40.3mpg, not shabby in the slightest.

My gas guzzler would only get 37-38mpg @ 75-80mph on fuel that (locally) costs 18% less than diesel.

Comperatively that'd be 43.66mpg from the diesel to break even in fuel costs per mile. My cheaper vehicle burning cheaper fuel while requiring less maintenance and greater fuel availability doesn't leave me wanting for much for a 2 person road tripping vehicle or for the 25 mile drive to school I take 4 times a week.

That's in a Honda Civic, what vehicle were you in Nate? If I could get a Chevy 4wd to get that milage I'd be all over it like a big girl at the buffet.

[okietreedude]

yesterday, the price of unleaded went from 3.09 to 2.99 and diesel went from 3.79 to 3.89.

So I ask...........What the Fock??!!??

[sawinredneck]

Because they can?

[pete mctree]

Paid £1.13 per litre here today. That's $2.29. That's an increase of £0.14 since mid december. It's making our lives difficult but thankfully, we don't have to do the miles many of you in the US do.

[sotc]

Are you sure about that?

pretty sure

[Chisel Tooth]

I don't know man, seems like a political thing to me. :D

[RaisedByWolves]

OK, since I got the fuel oil thing started, are they going to hit me with the whoopin stick for using fuel oil in my tractors?



The wifes uncle first told me you could do this as he did it with a diesel welding truck he had, claims he never had a problem and even used it in big trucks for a while, maybe the fines have changed significantly?



I really dont want to have go buy diesel to run my lil putputs around.:(



.

[sotc]

red fuel is "off road" any thing thats not regularly "driven" on the road can run red fuel

[treetx]

That's 40.3mpg, not shabby in the slightest.

My gas guzzler would only get 37-38mpg @ 75-80mph on fuel that (locally) costs 18% less than diesel.

Comperatively that'd be 43.66mpg from the diesel to break even in fuel costs per mile. My cheaper vehicle burning cheaper fuel while requiring less maintenance and greater fuel availability doesn't leave me wanting for much for a 2 person road tripping vehicle or for the 25 mile drive to school I take 4 times a week.

That's in a Honda Civic, what vehicle were you in Nate? If I could get a Chevy 4wd to get that milage I'd be all over it like a big girl at the buffet.

Gotta compare apples to apples. The TDI version on my car (VW) gets 25-50% better milage than the gas version. 18% higher fuel costs easily get justified.

I hear you about how great the civic is on milage......I have one of those too 8) But the civic doesn't have near the poke in it that the TDI has. Plus it isn't as comfy cruising 70-100mph as the VW.

Big girl at the buffet....when the Nissan Patrol or Hilux come out.....

A buddy of mine is dropping a little diesel from a UPS van into a 1978 Ford half ton......pretty cool too

[treetx]

I think we can take a cue from the rest of the world. Soon will be the day that cars are smaller for running around and work trucks are work trucks.

The days of using a one ton or even a half ton for a grocery truck or going antiquing on the weekend are limited.

[Al Smith]

The days of using a one ton or even a half ton for a grocery truck or going antiquing on the weekend are limited.
Ha,every day I walk out to the parking lot of that auto factory I work at and see all the "cowboy limosines" ,3/4 and one tons with duallys and a bed cover.

I have to laugh because most likely the bigget load they will ever carry is set of golf clubs :lol:

A bright side to this worry of high fuel prices could be full sized cars.As I type setting in my garage with 81 miles on it is a 2008 Mercury Marques ,4.6 liter engine all the bells and whistles of a Lincoln towncar.The price was cheaper than a baby Honda.It won't get 40 MPG but it will do 25 ,good enough for me.

Actually the old '90 Caddy got about 22-23 on a trip. Considering the size difference by that standard a Honda Civic should get about 60 .

[Frans]

the TDI version of the V.W. DOES NOT do well with veggi conversions...

Just thought I would throw that out there.

[lumberjack]

Gotta compare apples to apples. The TDI version on my car (VW) gets 25-50% better milage than the gas version. 18% higher fuel costs easily get justified.

I hear you about how great the civic is on milage......I have one of those too 8) But the civic doesn't have near the poke in it that the TDI has. Plus it isn't as comfy cruising 70-100mph as the VW.

Big girl at the buffet....when the Nissan Patrol or Hilux come out.....

A buddy of mine is dropping a little diesel from a UPS van into a 1978 Ford half ton......pretty cool too

What's the price difference though? I paid $7400 for my daily driving Civic.

You're right on the poke part. As is, it'll do 0-60 in 9 seconds and 0-100 in 27. If I had performance tires on it that'd shave a bit off the times. You're also right on the comfy factor, the tires make a decent amount of noise, the Accords have better sound insulation.

[Thor's Hammer]

Frans, TDI vw's are excellent on straight veggie oil - provided you have a twin tank conversion. PD (pumduesse) versions are slightly more sensitive, but all are factory warrentied to run on biodiesel

[treetx]

What's the price difference though? I paid $7400 for my daily driving Civic.


It was paid for by my employer....come to think of it, so is the diesel :)

I do get your point. It is a few $k more for the diesel which means it will take several years to pay for itself. Still, like with my F350, I would rather pay up front and move on than feel the pain weekly.

[Thor's Hammer]

Your problem Nate, you've been to Europe and seen the light. :)

My wife has a little Renault MPV. Stylish, very practical, 4x4, and has a startlingly quick little turbo diesel engine that gives her about 47mpg...

[MasterBlaster]

I LOVE to drive my friend's mini Cooper, it hauls ass! I wish they made a truck...

[Thor's Hammer]

Not quite a truck Butch, but I'm sure it wiould take your saw, saddle, and spurs. Comes with a diesel engine too...
http://www.motoringlife.ie/images/news_mini3007.jpg

[MasterBlaster]

My main reason for a truck is the keep the gas fumes out of the cab.

[Frans]

Frans, TDI vw's are excellent on straight veggie oil - provided you have a twin tank conversion. PD (pumduesse) versions are slightly more sensitive, but all are factory warrentied to run on biodiesel

Nice to hear from you ED.

but....I disagree.

Here is why:

The V.W. uses the same type of fuel injection pump that Ford uses in their 6.9 liter engine and chevy used in their 6.2 liter.

That pump is called a rotary injection pump. That pump uses such close tolerances that it gets gummed up no matter how hot the oil is.

We have replaced literally dozens of those pumps in V.W. that have been modified with all sorts of different kits for running veggi oil.

The 617 mercedes engine, Dodge cummings use an inline fuel injection pump which is much more robust.

Any of these fuel injection pumps run just fine on Bio-diesel.

[mryb]

yesterday, the price of unleaded went from 3.09 to 2.99 and diesel went from 3.79 to 3.89.

So I ask...........What the Fock??!!??

Thats where the politics come in...Rick

[Thor's Hammer]

Nice to hear from you ED.

but....I disagree.

Here is why:

The V.W. uses the same type of fuel injection pump that Ford uses in their 6.9 liter engine and chevy used in their 6.2 liter.

That pump is called a rotary injection pump. That pump uses such close tolerances that it gets gummed up no matter how hot the oil is.

We have replaced literally dozens of those pumps in V.W. that have been modified with all sorts of different kits for running veggi oil.

The 617 mercedes engine, Dodge cummings use an inline fuel injection pump which is much more robust.

Any of these fuel injection pumps run just fine on Bio-diesel.

Your talking about the Bosch VP44 rotary pump. Very few european VW's have that pump.... WOnder why the difference?

My buddy runs http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php and http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/index.html, he has had no problems with twin tanked pre heated VW tdi engines..:?

[Frans]

HA!!!

That really chaps my ass!

So the Euro VWs dont have that pump?!

I know you cant answer this but why oh why is it that the american cars are made so crappy?

[sawinredneck]

E P A

Thats all you need to know!

[Jonseredbred]

The fine for running red diesel is $10K plus $100 per gal. of tank capacity. So a pickup with a 35 gal. tank would pay $13500. A commercial vehicle with a 100 gal. tank would pay $20K. When you consider that the difference between off road and road diesel is 65 cents per gal in Hawaii, $13500 is the cost difference for buying 20,769.23 gals of fuel. That's enough fuel for me to drive about 17 years.

For those that want to run off road fuel, you do the math with your own driving and cost differential to see if it is worth the risk of getting caught.

and if you have bulk tanks at your shop, they can levy fines against that capacity also.

[Al Smith]

Your talking about the Bosch VP44 rotary pump. Very few european VW's have that pump.... WOnder why the difference?

The Bosch style pump has been around for years and years. I didn't know there was a problem with them.:?

Speaking of diesel,I wonder what that guy in NYC that was on TV a couple of years ago uses in his VW diesel he ran on cooking oil.The guy used old french frier oil from McDonalds an other places.He said he left a vapor trail that smelled like fish and chips .:lol:

[Frans]

The Bosch style pump has been around for years and years. I didn't know there was a problem with them.:?


Bosch in-line and Bosch rotary are two different animals

[sotc]

vp44 is very sensitive, needs lots of fuel or it burns up as the diesel cools and lubes the pump on the way through
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/search.php?searchid=2191655

[Thor's Hammer]

VP44's are fine with veggie if they are pre heated with dino diesel, and purged of veggie before shutdown.
Its all a matter of tolerances. The Cummins C9 in my log truck will start from cold in freezing weather with semi solid veggie in the lines..:)

[Frans]

VP44's are fine with veggie if they are pre heated with dino diesel, and purged of veggie before shutdown.
Its all a matter of tolerances. The Cummins C9 in my log truck will start from cold in freezing weather with semi solid veggie in the lines..:)

Ed, are you mixing rotary pumps with in-line pumps?

They are two completely different units.

On the rotary pump, the tolerances ARE very 'tight', which is what gums up using veggi oil. Too hot, and the veggi oil turns into shellac type substance. Also low temps coke up the exhaust.

On an in-line fuel injection pump, delivery of fuel is much simpler so it works better.


I have cut apart a rotary injection pump off of a Ford F350 w/a 6.9 liter diesel engine and seen the damage myself to the pump from running straight veggi oil. The oil passage holes are tiny.

Because veggi oil is such a hot new trend, lots of folks have been bringing in the V.W. TDI for conversions..... and then put in a new pump after anywhere from 20 to 40 thousand miles...

I am not convinced that it works very well with the v.w.

Dodge Cummings turbo diesel is a completely different story or the mercedes 5 cylinder.

[Thor's Hammer]

I hear you Frans - The pump on my Cummins is a huge inline bosch unit - no problems. And yes, the tolerances on the VP44 rotary are what causes problems. However, Elsbett actually do a single tank conversion for these - and twin tanks do fine.

[Frans]

:thumbup:

[Al Smith]

I only assume the inline Bosc is similar to a Cat inline.I've never seen the Bosc apart.My parents motor home with a 300 Hp Cummins uses a Bosc inline.

Now the old Cat deal had a heater by virtue of the fact that the fuel filter chamber was tied to the cooling water.Thus as the engine temp elevated the fuel got warmer,thus thinner.

[Stumper]

Someone posted a link somewhere a while backthat I followed showing reduced wear benefits on diesels with various additives. 2 cycle oils at 200/1 actually showed benefits. Anyone else doing it? Obviously a red dye 2 cycle would be a terrible choice. I can't see spending big bucks for additives since diesels already wear very slowly but with diesel at 4 bucks a gallon and cheapo 2 cycle oils showing up on special all the time I decided to do the 200/1 thing. The oil costs little more than the fuel itself and if improved lubricity saves even tiny percentages of fuel and wear it is probably worthwhile.

[brendonv]

Here's that chart stumper speaks of.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c351/Brendonv/HFRRtesting.jpg

[brendonv]

It's got to be TCW-3, ASHLESS!

[Al Smith]

I don't know how truth there is to this but they claimed before winter blend diesel fuel that kersosine would harm the engine.

The standard practice was to dump a can or two of auto tranny fluid in the tank during cold weather operations .

Geeze before blended fuels,direct injected diesels,glow plugs . etc those things were a beech to get started in the winter.Too much ether would blow the heads .Some times they would hold a torch over the intake to get them going and never shut them off until it warmed back up .Then too the price of fuel wasn't nearly 4 bucks a gallon .

[treetx]

Lubricity...viscosity?

Not sure about rheometry, etc but I do not that S in diesel make it more slippery.

[Frans]

Lubricity...viscosity?

Not sure about rheometry, etc but I do not that S in diesel make it more slippery.

huh? :?
Could you re-type that? I don't understand.

[treetx]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheometry

My point was that with ULSD we are also losing viscocity

[Frans]

oh, here I was thinking about KY jelly :|: ;)

[treetx]

Oh snap! Is that getting more 'spensive too!!

KY would help with the rising fuel problem

http://images.cafepress.com/image/12122684_125x125.jpg

[brendonv]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheometry

My point was that with ULSD we are also losing viscocity

Thats the whole point of the study shown above, to put the viscocity back in it. :D Some claimed a milage increase with the 2-stroke too.

[TC3]

I use Miracle Marvel & am confused by the chart ? I need a li'l help understanding how I managed to choose the worst product ?!?

[brendonv]

I use Miracle Marvel & am confused by the chart ? I need a li'l help understanding how I managed to choose the worst product ?!?

The chart is for the product added to ULSD TC. It was a independent study. Untreated fuel has a HFRR # of 636 (I believe HFRR is the amount of lubricity in the fuel). Engine manufacturer's suggest less than 460. In order to bring that number down, you want to add something to it. The lower the number the better lubricity. People are choosing to add 2-stroke because it's just to darn cheap, although not the best.

By adding the marvel mystery into your diesel fuel you are doing nothing, spending money and making it even worse for lubricity.

I thought you had a f150 though?

[Skwerl]

Marvel mystery oil is nothing more than overpriced turpentine with red coloring added. The only purpose it serves is to separate people from money. Any perceived benefits are purely imaginary.

[Frans]

Marvel Mystery Oil. If is sounds like snake oil, it must be....

[TC3]

I drive an F-150, yes. I use Miracle Marvel in the crank case & fuel tank.
I guess I'm an idijit. C'est La Vie.
I really thought it helped with cleaning out injectors, etc. My bad.
Edu-ma-cate me !!!

[squisher]

So anyone else using 2-stroke oil in their diesel? Anything to report on brands or mix ratios?

[squisher]

It's got to be TCW-3, ASHLESS!

What's this mean?


Obviously a red dye 2 cycle would be a terrible choice.

And this?

[lumberjack]

Justin, red coloured 2 cycle oil would give the appearance of untaxed (not road) diesel, which carries a heavy fine.

The TCW-3 thing.... it was an item on the test... the ashless bit I can't cypher.

[stehansen]

I was talking over the fence with my neighbor who is a partner in a fuel distributorship and he said that there was additives in the ULSD to make it lube better now and that putting anything in the diesel was a waste of money.

[squisher]

Cool, I figured that was what was meant with the dye thing. I'm thinking of trying out some additive and seeing how it goes.

[Skwerl]

Squishy, wanna buy some Marvel Mystery oil? Only $28.95 per quart, quaranteed to fix what ails ya!
:lol:

[squisher]

Heh I read the chart!:D

[TC3]

Squishy, wanna buy some Marvel Mystery oil? Only $28.95 per quart, quaranteed to fix what ails ya!
:lol:

Actually, it's $3.99 a quart, and I'd do anything to boost the life of my engine & MPG performance.
I shoulda been born a squirrel.
Then I'd inherently know the diff & could chatter at my lowers.
Gosh, to be a squirrel.
Then, we'd all know that women are evil bitches and the world would be better off without them.
Too bad I'm not lesbian. Then, Squirrel could hate me double.

[Stumper]

T, I don't think there was any hate in this-just some razzing. MMO in fuel IS supposed to clean injectors but in the oil it just thins it out.

[TC3]

You're too kind, Justin.
I'm so worn out on Skwerl's "He-Man-Woman-Haters" crap that I'm just about over it.
I have spent my time & energy here for over four years. Drunk, sorry, or sober, I have tried my level best to be civil. I just do not get it with people who proclaim to be "reconstructed" when all they are is reconstituted fucks.
Join the human race and be FORGIVING.
You will find your life fulfilled.

[brendonv]

Go to the thedieselgarage.com and search "2-stroke". It'll give you days of reading.

[Al Smith]

To tell the truth I really think Marvel mystery oil is nothing but auto tranny fluid. The stuff is a half-fast penetrating oil .

The stuff has been around every since I can remember.It works to desludge an engine,to a point but so will tranny fluid .It nor anything else is the magic cure all for an ailing engine .

All this stuff works but not how they claim it to ,STP, Wynns , Caseite,the list goes on and on.

Actually the best cure for a sludged engine is just change the oil more frequently.Over time most of that gunk gets washed out .

On an auto tranny,change the fluid and filter on a timely bassis because those little gems will not heal themselves once they go bad .

[Frans]

Teresa,
In my opinion most of the additives for gas engines are not worth the money.
I have years of working on cars and trucks and I have learned that to get the longest service life from your car,
Maintenance is key.
Do your oil changes on time. and always change your filters (fuel filter also)
Keep your car tuned properly
Avoid sudden acceleration & hard braking
Let your car warm up before driving
keep your air pressure correct in all 4 tires
Swap out/flush your coolant & use distilled water annually
Follow manufacturers service intervals.


I know these things seem simple but you would be surprised at how much doing these things will extend the life of your car.
99% of folks with problems dont do these things.

Much to the delight of car mechanics.

Buy your gas from a station which does alot of business. That way the tanks are being flushed out and you will avoid buying sediment.

The gasoline sold has what is needed in it to run your car. If not, the car manufacturers would have trouble with their warrenties.

'Bout the only time I use additives is when their is a problem that I dont want to fix. Like a leaky power steering pump, headgasket, radiator, etc. Only then will I dump in some additive

Wait, I do use an additives in very paticular situations like in the radiator water which is essentially a surfactant or I fill the fuel filter with an additive before installing it. But that is for diesels.

Teresa, I hope this helps you. I personally hate the feeling of trying to get some information from someone and have them blow me off. Especially when they are supposed to be a friend/forum buddy.

[Frans]

Actually the best cure for a sludged engine is just change the oil more frequently.Over time most of that gunk gets washed out .


I agree Al. Detergent oils can start leaks by cleaning out the gunk blocking worn gaskets. Best to just change stuff when required.

Also I avoid synthetic oil in older engines. They always seem to 'find' leaks. I just stick with a non-recycled non-detergent quality oil. Usually I just dump in 20/50 in older engines and just leave it at that.

[Al Smith]

Two types of engines,those that leak and those that will.

The only non leaker I have is a 1942 D4 Cat.It is put together with Garlock gaskets and number one Permatex,about like welding everything on .Of course the brand new Mercury doesn't leak----yet .It will in time ,bet on it .

[sawinredneck]

I used MMO for years in machine shops, it's a great air tool lubricant, and good for fitting parts together when you don't want the grease of Lubriplate on the parts. But not in my engines!

T: Everything Frans said to a T!! I do not use synthetics in older cars that have not been running it as they WILL start to leak. STP is CRAP!! It settles at the bottom and plugs stuff up!!
I do use Lucas and believe it helps (I cannot prove it though), and can verify Valvoline Max life oil will improve gas millage in older cars. I have gone from 12mpg to 13mpg in a Bronco by just changing the oil. And it doesn't cost any more than regular oil, unlike synthetics. The Lucas products are not cheap but can be had at O'Riellys, it may or may not help.
I have a buddy that swears by Slick50, and another that swears by Seafoam, in high mileage motors. I can't say either way, and they can't back that claim, so?
Not much help I know, but as Frans says, it's all about maintaining you're engine and drive train, even changing the tranny fluid can gain mileage, it carries less heat and works more efficiently. Change the oil in the rear end to synthetic, less friction, bu it's expensive, so is the gain going to be worth the initial cost? And will there even be a gain?
My truck, with under 30k on it, I am switching EVERYTHING over to synthetic slowly, I figure I am going to put at least 100k on it in the time I own it, so ANY gain will be seen over that time period, and the cost will be effective.
I can't say if thats a good idea for you or not, you will have to think about that you're self.

[Al Smith]

Just for information , heat build up is a destroyer of auto trannys .You get to pulling heavy loads or running hills with the pedal to the medal,bet on a short life.

Proper maintanence,maybe 150-200 thou if you are lucky .Flog hell out of it,maybe 75 .It's a lot cheaper to change oil than replace trannys in the long run .

[TC3]

I drive a 1996 with 186k on it. I bought it for $1,000.
I miss Chucky !!! He'd be in my corner on driving a vehicle into the ground (ever-so-gently !) !
I wouldn't own a new truck if you gave it to me. PLPD insurance is quite enough, thank you.

[sawinredneck]

Drive it in the ground T!!!! But if you want to get some improvments in mileage, maintain it.

[No_Bivy]

price dropped to 3.85 a gallon here...yee haw?

[brendonv]

price dropped to 3.85 a gallon here...yee haw?

Wow! That aignt bad, (did I just say that). Went from 4.25+ to down only .10 so far.

[Frans]

I drive a 1996 with 186k on it. I bought it for $1,000.
I miss Chucky !!! He'd be in my corner on driving a vehicle into the ground (ever-so-gently !) !
I wouldn't own a new truck if you gave it to me. PLPD insurance is quite enough, thank you.


Yer a gal after my own heart, TC!

I see so many guys buying these brand new trucks for incredible amounts of money, and then making payments for years on it.

For what?

My old rigs do just fine to get me around, at a fraction of the cost

[Frans]

I drive a 1996 with 186k on it. I bought it for $1,000.
I miss Chucky !!! He'd be in my corner on driving a vehicle into the ground (ever-so-gently !) !
I wouldn't own a new truck if you gave it to me. PLPD insurance is quite enough, thank you.


Yer a gal after my own heart, TC! :big-love:

I see so many guys buying these brand new trucks for incredible amounts of money, and then making payments for years on it.

For what?

My old rigs do just fine to get me around, at a fraction of the cost

[sotc]

write offs, less down time, grants, tax credits.

diesel dropped 4 cents here

[squisher]

You psyching yourself up for a new truck Willie?:D

[sotc]

got a brand old one:D maybe in a year or 2 ill get something nice

[stehansen]

I'm thinking of getting a chip truck. Is a 1-ton adequate? My chipper is a Vermeer 1250, weighs 7500 lbs.

[Stumper]

Steve, Yeah-I think a 1 ton is ADEQUATE. In fact I'm thinking of trying to swap my "3 Ton" for a 1 ton. My firewood guy runs an extended frame/12 foot dump bed on a 1 ton. He puts over 20,000 pounds on that thing( It does have a beefed up suspension). That is excessive but 5000-6000 lb loads don't stress a 1 tom much.

[sotc]

mine has been through the ringer and still ticking. 5-6000 pound loads all the time. ive grossed 14500 and towed my 7000 pound chipper. not ideal but it works

[Al Smith]

Stumper you firewooder is going to hit a bump in the road and that one ton will fold up like a house of cards. I've seen it happen. 10 ton is about twice what it should handle.

About 2.5 ton on a heavy 3/4 and 5 max on a beefed up one ton is more than enough .Even dually's can only handle so much safely .

Now I say all this but I have broken springs before myself .Makes em go down the road kind of funny like .They want to go in a circle for some reason or another .

[Frans]

Just dont live in an area with hills.

[stehansen]

Are they usually 12,500 lbs GVW? 5 to 6 thousand pounds is what I was thinking and it has to be able to lug the chipper around also. I do work in the hills/mountains once in a while and I have learned that you can't get away with overloading things up there like ya can down here on the flat ground.

[sotc]

yeah we have some steep country around here, when we have to do that ill take smaller loads to get off the hill and/or another truck to haul the chipper

[lumberjack]

Rear disc brakes seem like a good idea as well.

Put on 85 bucks in gas and $51 in diesel today. Didn't top the grinder off though, didn't wanna put that much in the tank right now.

$3.35 for gas and $3.90 for diesel.

[Paul B]

$1.22CDN (works out to about $4.63CDN to a US gallon) a liter here today for gas, havent noticed a diesel price lately.

[sotc]

fuel went from 3.99 early this week to 4.25 yesterday!! .489 higher than super:O i put 120 bucks in my dodge yesterday and another 120 in 1 tank on the bucket!

[rumination]

Maybe I'll give up on buying a truck and just get a Geo Metro instead.

[sotc]

with a tow package:D

[Burnham]

with a tow package:D

:lol:

[Koa Man]

Diesel in Hawaii is $4.18 a gal. I would still make my next pickup a diesel, but right now, I love my 2001 Dodge 2500 4X4 and plan to keep it till it can't be fixed anymore. I have 123000 miles on it, injection pump and starter changed 3 months ago. Should be good for another 100K miles with no problem.

[sotc]

i wont be getting rid of mine, i still smile when i get on it! just may want something for normal running around, good shape but not new

[stehansen]

:lol:

I was going down the freeway the other day and passed a Geo Metro with a huge beam of wood lashed to the top.

[Stumper]

Ha! I passed Suzuki Samurai with a Nifty Lift mounted on the roof!

(Not really but I do WANT to see that.)