Rope Bag Question

[MasterBlaster]

I don't use them, I roll and hank. But I'm growing weary of having to fight with my rope as I descend from the ball. My method is to place the sling, then (from Beranek's "mind your ropes") coil my line and throw it along the path I plan to rappel down.

I think it would be sweet for my rope to deploy effortlessly from a bag hanging from my saddle. So my question is I guess I'll have to stuff this rope back in the bag after every descent? I mean, I'm gonna assume the answer is yes but I don't know it that is as much of a PITA as just sticking with the way I do it now. Some trees are many rides.

Any ball riders have any thoughts on this matter?

[inztrees]

Rope bags

[Skwerl]

I have no problem flaking my rope back into the bag. I can put the rope in a bag about as fast as I can coil it up. Unfortunately most guys I work around aren't as coordinated and seem to have a very difficult time trying to figure out how to flake or stuff a rope in a bag. They invariably overcomplicate it by trying to overthink it.

[top hopper]

Like anything the more you do it the better and faster you'll get. I can bag 120ft of rope into a bag in the same amount of time it'd take to coil it. The beauty is- no hang ups (fewer) when you toss it down your intended route. Then when you pull it out of your TIP just start flaking it right into the bag.

You could, as you mentioned, carry the bag on your saddle and let the rope deploy as you descend if you want to carry the weight of the rope with you.

[MasterBlaster]

You could, as you mentioned, carry the bag on your saddle and let the rope deploy as you descend if you want to carry the weight of the rope with you.

And that's the point of this thread. I don't plan to start using bags for anything other than riding the ball. I'm a hanker, not a flaker. ;)

[top hopper]

Then you already know the answer.

Stuff the bag on the ground before you ride, or coil it and toss it out after the ride.


One of my climbing lines is stored into a backpack for the times I want to carry it with me, whether it be riding the ball or whatever. It takes a lil more patience to flake into a backpack vs. an open top rope bag.

[Skwerl]

I'll up the ante here and make you an offer. We all know that HC's rope bags are the best available, and that the Bag Lady's craftsmanship is better than any store bought bag on the market. Sure, Wesspur is going to be selling HC bags soon but I suspect they might not be exactly the same.

Therefore I'll offer you one of my two original HC bags. I may climb once per month and I haven't used the rope in my second HC bag in almost a year. I'd be happy to see it put to use. I'll be buying a couple HC bags from Wesspur when they come out anyway. And you may never have another opportunity to get an original HC bag in like-new condition.
8)

[MasterBlaster]

Free stuff! Bring it on!!! :beer:

[inztrees]

is it the one w/ skulls?

[Hobby Climber]

is it the one w/ skulls?
---------------------------


Na!

That one's a birthday gift to me from "The Bag Lady"!

HC

[Hobby Climber]

The trick with flaking is to pull the rope from over your shoulder and flak it hand-over-hand into the bag. ;)

The original bags just had handles but the new ones will have a loop for a biner to attach to just for this purpose! ...soon as Wes-Spur gets up & running.

HC

[TheTreeSpyder]

If'n ya can flake a trow line into a mug sized bag; flakin' a rope into a full size bag is a breeze.

In any case; if i hank or flake; i all ways roll the line between my fingers with every grab. This gives a really flat hank; rolling always in the same direction between my fingers as i place each turn on the coil. Or, in flaking, the right hand fingers roll the line counterclockwise as the left hand rolls it clockwise to counter the each other for a more balanced lay; probably best for braids/ not 3 strand though. The motion is pretty imperceptible; especially in hanking if you are also letting the weight of the line pendulum back and forth; back to pull the line, for ward to place that turn on the coil. But, i thin it is the best way to pro-ceed, and have never seen it de-scribed that i can remember.

[top hopper]

How bout backpack type straps too? or at least an option for them?

[MasterBlaster]

If'n ya can flake a trow line into a mug sized bag; flakin' a rope into a full size bag is a breeze.

In any case; if i hank or flake; i all ways roll the line between my fingers with every grab. This gives a really flat hank; rolling always in the same direction between my fingers as i place each turn on the coil. Or, in flaking, the right hand fingers roll the line counterclockwise as the left hand rolls it clockwise to counter the each other for a more balanced lay; probably best for braids/ not 3 strand though. The motion is pretty imperceptible; especially in hanking if you are also letting the weight of the line pendulum back and forth; back to pull the line, for ward to place that turn on the coil. But, i thin it is the best way to pro-ceed, and have never seen it de-scribed that i can remember.


I do the same thing, I just never knew how to 'asplain it...:|:

[Skwerl]

I recommend not doing that when flaking rope into a bag. If you twist it going in, then it has to untwist coming out. Why introduce twist into the rope if you don't have to? Just like others who don't know better, you're overcomplicating it.

[MasterBlaster]

It's not really twisting...

[top hopper]

I recommend not doing that when flaking rope into a bag. If you twist it going in, then it has to untwist coming out. Why introduce twist into the rope if you don't have to? Just like others who don't know better, you're overcomplicating it.

Agreed!

Just stuff it in hand over hand, and it'll flake out tangle free. No need to twist or lay it on the bag.

[top hopper]

I will say-

Proper hanking is an art (sorta), Ive always prided myself in nicely hanked lines. A pet peeve of mine is when someone thinks they're doing me a favor by hanking a line of mine, then one wrong move and you got a rats nest.

I'll flake / hank my own lines thank you very much.

[TheTreeSpyder]

In the flaking; it kinda is just holding your hand stiff; and it just naturally rolls as you draw it into you i think. Anyway, the one way then next gives a more solid, self canceling effect; ya might even do somewhat naturally without knowing it. Kinda slightly akin to fig8'ing a hank for the same reasons. In hanking; i think of it as the rope wants to twist, and you are combing that out and making it lay flatter and deploy cleaner.

[MasterBlaster]

I'll flake / hank my own lines thank you very much.

I like when they do that, and then I re-do it, lol! They always wanna make it three or four feet long.

Frig that!

[Hobby Climber]

I think my idea of flaking is different that the way The Tree Spider explains it.

Again, you simply pull it from over your shoulder and fill the bag via hand-over-hand. It will look like a bag full of spagetti but it will deploy similar to through line from "The Cube"!

K.I.S.S. eh!:)

HC

[Blinky]

The trick with flaking is to pull the rope from over your shoulder and flak it hand-over-hand into the bag. ;)

[...]

HC

This is the ticket. 150' of rope in less than a minute. It's waaay faster than coiling.

[rumination]

Another rope bag flaking tip: if you still have your saddle on just slip the rope into a carabiner on the front, bend over slightly and hand over hand the rope into the bag. I find this way is faster and easier than the over the shoulder technique.

I do a similar thing with my throwline but a bit different. I always keep a small keychain biner clipped to my F-cube. If I have a lot of throwline to flake back in I'll clip the keychain biner to the collar of my shirt and run the throwline through that. Stand over the F-cube and hand over hand the throwline straight in, EZ PZ.

[gf beranek]

I use bags to store my climbling lines, but through the course of the day I coil it between going from tree to tree.

A 120 ft. line I will start with about 30 inch coils and end with 20 to 24 inch. Then I lay it on the ground next to the trunk with the smaller coils on top and it always pulls off clean without tangles.

My groundies like to help by picking up and coiling my climbline for me, but they always make a mess of it that tangles no matter what they do. I always say, "Thank you." But really don't mean it. They mean well, but through all the years they have never gotten it right.

At the end of the day I will let them stuff the bag. That's kind of hard to screw up.

[MasterBlaster]

This is the ticket. 150' of rope in less than a minute. It's waaay faster than coiling.


I'll take that bet! :evil:

[Blinky]

I'll take that bet! :evil:

What, you don't think it can be done? :? Piece-o-cake, you just shove the rope in the bag as fast as you can, hand over hand. The trick is feeding it over your shoulder... or through a biner I guess, haven't tried that one yet. Seriously, 150' - less than a minute



My groundies like to help by picking up and coiling my climbline for me, but they always make a mess of it that tangles no matter what they do. I always say, "Thank you." But really don't mean it. They mean well, but through all the years they have never gotten it right.

I hate it when people coil my ropes. I do the same thing, thank them and not really mean it.

I always coiled when climbing rock but for trees? Bags are da shit. Easy in, easy out.

[Bounce]

I have to admit, I'm a bit skeptical MB - I don't think ANYBODY can coil a rope as fast as it could be flaked into a bag. I've raced 5 or 6 other guys who didn't believe me, and it wasn't even close. The problem is that with coiling, once you're done making the coils you have to bind them together with a series of wrap and then some kind of hitch. None of that happens when flaking into a bag.

I frequently climb with my rope in a bag dangling just below my feet. It's nice when I'm working alone because no branches can land on my rope and trap me. I also climb with bagged rope when I'm setting a pull line on a tree that's coming down. Rather than climb with just one end and then have to pull up and coil the entire thing before throwing it down, I just climb with the bag, tie one end to the tree, and then toss the bag to the ground. Even a butterfly coil will sometimes get tangled when thrown, but never with a bag.

[gf beranek]

I generally preset a rope in every tree. And if it's a wreck job, fir, pine, redwood, I'll coil the rope up and tuck it away as I ascend and cut limbs. No tangles on the ground and it never gets caught in the mix when the groundies step in to pull brush to the chipper.

I use a snap-on sling to hold the coils and carry on the side of the belt. I never really feel the weight of the coils since it's all hanging in the line from the get go. Just before topping the tree I will toss the coils out in the clear just to be ready for a speedy exit out of the tree.

[inztrees]

[QUOTE=gf beranek;212888]I generally preset a rope in every tree. And if it's a wreck job, fir, pine, redwood, I'll coil the rope up and tuck it away as I ascend and cut limbs. No tangles on the ground and it never gets caught in the mix when the groundies step in to pull brush to the chipper.

me 2 but I keep like 10 or 12 feet of the end out so I can move or chunk wood. I have 3 rope bags some times I coil but I like the bags better. But we do not have a lot of rroom in the boxs for a bunch of bags.

[MasterBlaster]

HDYFUAQ?

[Blinky]

Your search - HDYFUAQ - did not match any documents.

WTF? :?

[pantheraba]

I assumed:

how do you fook up a question

am I close?

[brendonv]

HDYFUAQ?

How Do You F00ck Up A Quote? :P Just a guess.

[pantheraba]

I agree on others coiling my ropes...it makes me nuts...they'll often make these twisted, figure 8'd coils and then lay it down for me to finish off. I just backfeed it and recoil. Unless it's my father...then I take it home where he doesn't see me undo his handiwork.

I only coil rigging ropes...I bag all my climbing ropes...and have my 9'16 Stable braid in a milk crate. The other rigging ropes get coiled.

[pantheraba]

Brendon, yours makes sense...it had to be "quote".

[MasterBlaster]

How Do You F00ck Up A Quote? :P Just a guess.


:rockon:

[Burnham]

Another rope bag flaking tip: if you still have your saddle on just slip the rope into a carabiner on the front, bend over slightly and hand over hand the rope into the bag. I find this way is faster and easier than the over the shoulder technique.

I do a similar thing with my throwline but a bit different. I always keep a small keychain biner clipped to my F-cube. If I have a lot of throwline to flake back in I'll clip the keychain biner to the collar of my shirt and run the throwline through that. Stand over the F-cube and hand over hand the throwline straight in, EZ PZ.

I do almost exactly the same thing Leon, with one difference. FS protocol includes always wearing a chest harness, to facilitate upper body support should aerial rescue be required. I run the rope or throwline through the biner in the middle of my chest and lean over the bag and feed it in hand over hand. It's very fast...with the mount point up a little higher like that you can feed full arm-length strokes into the bag or cube.

I've been showing both students and experienced climbers this technique for years, and most adopt it immediately as their SOP.

Coiling IS slower, Butch...I've done the race thing like Bounce describes too, it wasn't even close. My lines are almost all 200 feet or more...coiling gets really awkward and slow when there is too much rope to hold easily in one hand.

Now, about that tautline hitch...
:D

[stig]

You know those indian fakirs, that play a melody on a flute to get a rope to rise out of a bag, then they climb up the rope and disappear.
Now the trick for us would be to get hold of one of those flutes and learn to play the tune backwards!

[Hobby Climber]

You know those indian fakirs, that play a melody on a flute to get a rope to rise out of a bag, then they climb up the rope and disappear.
Now the trick for us would be to get hold of one of those flutes and learn to play the tune backwards!
------------------


Here ya go Stig,

[pigwot]

When I first got my bags from Hobby Climber I flaked like a coiler: carefully made sure to add that 1/4 to 1/2 twist so the rope would lay in nice tight little round coils in the bag. Problem was if I used a bagged rope off the ball or out of the tree and wore the bag on my belt and let it run out as I descended it would hockle* due to that twist not being able to work itself out.

* hockle: is that a valid term? We always used it to mean where the rope would twist into tight small knot-like coils that would jam at your friction knot; especially a pain in the days of three strand hemp ropes.

A good coil job needs that 1/4 to 1/2 turn each coil to counteract the twist inherent in coiling a line, thus ensuring it lays flat. (It's that same twist you see in an electrical extension cord that someone wraps around their forearm instead of coiling like a tree rope).

Once I started flaking pell-mell into the bags without a care as to what it looked like, the ropes play out nicely no matter what I am doing. It helps tossing the line over a low branch or over your shoulder to keep good tension on the line when you flake the rope back into a bag. I just need another four bags... c'mon WesSpur...


And now the ground crew knows that my ropes are as flakey as I am...

[TC3]

* hockle: is that a valid term? We always used it to mean where the rope would twist into tight small knot-like coils that would jam at your friction knot; especially a pain in the days of three strand hemp ropes.

* hockle ... aka : 'assholes'

Great post, pigwot.

[NickfromWI]

I'll take that bet! :evil:

I feel a youtube video coming!!! :P

love
nick

[pantheraba]

FS protocol includes always wearing a chest harness, to facilitate upper body support should aerial rescue be required. I run the rope or throwline through the biner in the middle of my chest and lean over the bag and feed it in hand over hand. It's very fast...with the mount point up a little higher like that you can feed full arm-length strokes into the bag or cube.

Now, about that tautline hitch...
:D

You posted this info sometime last year, too, Burnham. I've used it ever since. I wear a rockclimbing daisy chain bandoleer style...use it to hold biners, phone, med pack, etc. I clip a biner at chest level like you say and flake away, works great.

I used to attach the bag to my belt and flake over the shoulder or kneel down on one knee...but your way is better...thanks for the good tip.

Now, about that tautline hitch....:lol:

[MasterBlaster]

Now, about that tautline hitch...:D


Now, about that tautline hitch....:lol:

OK, I can take a hint. Heres a pic for you two! :)

[Hobby Climber]

OK, I can take a hint. Heres a pic for you two! :)
-----------------




MB,


Perhaps its just a bad picture angle but doesn't the tautline hitch have 2 wraps bellow & 2 wraps above giving a 4 wrap total?

In your pic it appears to have 2 below & 1 above with a total of 3 wraps.

Am I seeing things or is this a modified version for lighter climbers?

Just wondering is all,


HC

[MasterBlaster]

That's the bayou version. ;)

[Stumper]

1 and 2 is classic rolling or Magnus hitch formation. Perfectly legit. Butch you know that if you reverse the top coil and have the tail exit back along the bridge entry that it will never creep or try to roll out? In the days of hemp either configuration was considered correct ...but hemp didn't try to roll out as much as synthetics. Somewhere along the morphing from rolling hitch (on a spar) to camel hitch ( on rope at sea) to the tautline (tent guys and treeclimbers) everyone standardized on the config that sucks the worst.

[pantheraba]

I learned 2 under, one over on manila...circa 1971 or so...we never used a stopper knot on the tail, never heard of one...never had the knot roll out either...guess the manila not being so slick prevented that. Sometimes I did use 2 under, 2 over with synthetic rope when I quit using manila.

[Hobby Climber]

Interesting Tautline!
----------



Back to topic,

In the early '80s, I took a rappel instructors course with the military. We didn't have any fancy harnesses or any high tech gear for that mater. They taught us to make/tie a "Swiss Seat" harness with a length of rope. Thats right, a rope harness with no padding, buckles, D's, etc. You learned to do it right or risk looking body parts!!!:\:

We didn't have rope bags, just sandbags to stow the rappel rope.

One guy would hold the sandbag open as another guy would fill it with rope hand over hand. No pattern or fig-8 pattern or anything line that. Just filled the bag and the rope went where it wanted to. ;)

Up on the cliff, we'd secure one end and toss the sandbag w/rope over the edge. It deployed flawlessly each & every time with no knots kinks or twists.

Talk about your K.I.S.S., it don't get any more bare-bones basic than that!
----------------


I was at the "M.T.C.C." in Midland Michigan last summer and could not believe number of guys who coiled their climb lines ...and then stuffed them in the rope bags! What a waist of time & energy to say the least!

If they had a bag that stood upright & open (hint hint ;)), all they would have to do is simply load the bag "HAND-OVER-HAND" and save themselves from getting knots, kinks & twists the next time they deploy their rope!

I'm starting to wonder if this is the reason why some guys use milk crates & 5 gallon plastic pails to load rope into!

HC

[OTGBOSTON]

Interesting Tautline!
----------


We didn't have any fancy harnesses or any high tech gear for that mater. They taught us to make/tie a "Swiss Seat" harness with a length of rope. Thats right, a rope harness with no padding, buckles, D's, etc. You learned to do it right or risk looking body parts!!!:\:



I too was learnt this method by an old school tree guy, 'cept it was called a bowlin-on-a-bite. Ditto for the two under one ova tautline hitch, it was SOP for me untill I attended my first Arbormaster training class:evil:

oh yeah, rope bags=a must. provided one knows how to properly coil and store a rope first!

[Blinky]

[...] everyone standardized on the config that sucks the worst.

Kinda like how we chooses presidents, eh? :X

[Frans]

two down and one up! Learned on this knot. Whatever climbing hitch you do use, I am a firm believer that you should be able to tie it quickly in any position, upside down, right side up, backwards and forwards or even behind your back.

Seen alot of climbers working hard to tie their hitch, and I think it is unsafe if you dont have it memorized. It should be embedded in your genetic memory to be safe IMO.

[Blinky]

Here, here. Knots are something a climber has to do naturally. I still practice bowlines and stuff when I need something to do with my hands. Cool thing about the tautline, you can tie it upside down and backwards with one hand behind your back.

I use'em on my ascender backups because I can tie both sides nice and quick one with each hand.

[Frans]

Cool thing about the tautline, you can tie it upside down and backwards with one hand behind your back.



oh yea! well I can tie it with my teeth with both eyes closed! Top that buddy!
8):D

[Stumper]

oh yea! well I can tie it with my teeth with both eyes closed! Top that buddy!
8):D

I kin tie it wit my tooth wit my mouth closed!:P

[Burnham]

I can tie it just by thinking about it...can you do better than THAT!!!???!!!

:D

[TC3]

oooye cmph tie it wmph bff hands td bhindmph mbck nd eetn lunchmph nd blnd fldd nd gaggd n whilf mph grndy isf rlreddy tied inpf ndph doin jobf furmee !!!

[Frans]

oooye cmph tie it wmph bff hands td bhindmph mbck nd eetn lunchmph nd blnd fldd nd gaggd n whilf mph grndy isf rlreddy tied inpf ndph doin jobf furmee !!!

:big-not-worthy:

[Blinky]

... I SAID I was tying TWO at the same time. Tying ONE is easy... I don't even need rope for that!

A course that 'whilf mph grndy isf rlreddy tied inpf ndph doin jobf furmee !!!' ...well, I just need some more practice.

[stehansen]

I think TC3 won that one.

[Blinky]

I think TC3 won that one.

I concede.

[Burnham]

Yeah, she beat my mind control method hands down. :D

[Stumper]

I too acquiesce to Teresa's superior skills.

[stehansen]

Y'all did "represent" pretty well though.:)

[treelooker]

The woman has a way with words; no doubt.