The Screw-Gate 'Biner

[TC3]

...Revisited.
Are they of any use at all in our industry ?
Anybody want a free one ? PM me & pay the postage, I'll gladly have it out of my world. Brand spanking new & a twenty dollar bill flushed.

[Paul B]

I have three or four old ones from my rock climbing and camping days. I sometimes use them to put junk on my saddle, but not much else, they arent beefy enough for rigging (like I do that anyways) and you arent sposed to use them for your personal tie in system, right?

[Frans]

If they are 'key lock' then they are alot easier to use to connect rigging straps...

[Hobby Climber]

T,

Why not keep them for attaching stuff to a speed line? Always nice to have a few extra biners on hand! Just a thought is all.

But if your still looking at getting rid of them, I'd be happy to take them off your hands. I'll give you my father-in-laws address in Sterling Heights MI if they haven't been spoken for yet.

PM sent, ...but I still think you should keep them!


HC

[Ax-Man]

I use a 50 and 70 kn screw gate biners for our porta wrap, 5to 1,ect. Just about anywhere a connecting attachment link is needed that does not be need to be continually connected or disconnected.

I like those screw gates much better than the locking gates. Just spin them to open or spin them to close them.

I'd keep it myself, never throw out or sell a biner unless it just won't function at all. That is just my thoughts.

[pantheraba]

I use one on the saw end of my saw lanyard...and one on my saddle where my chest "bandoleer" attaches. I have a daisy chain of loops that I wear bandoleer style to attach biners, first aid, etc.

[TC3]

...never throw out or sell a biner unless it just won't function at all. That is just my thoughts.

I'd have to agree, Ax.
'Cept for the fact that I've never felt comfortable with the screw gate. Even for odd uses, there have been so many times when I thought the gate was screwed tight when it was actually the exact opposite.
I just don't trust it... More to the point, I don't trust myself.

[OTGBOSTON]

speedline, thats it for me. Kind of strange how people will just buy 'biners not paying attention to their design/specific use. For me it's petzl OK and Hms, and I have a few of those CMI mighty mouses. Man I love buying gear:D

[Bodean]

always a place for expendable carrabeaners on a tree crew.

[stehansen]

Attaching a safety chain on a trailer?

[Paul B]

I used one as a keychain for a few years. was kinda heavy tho.

[Bounce]

If it isn't gone yet, WileyP and myself are having a disagreement about how strong a screw lock biner is when using it to choke a lanyard onto a tree (as in the article picture). I say not strong enough to attach my life to (because of force applied to side of gate); he says it's good enough. Feel like choking a webbing lanyard to a tree and shock loading it? It's not exactly scientific, but it would give us something to base our disagreement on.

[Skwerl]

Sean, IMO you need to have it wrapped around a fairly small limb in order to side load the carabiner. It's something to be aware of when positioning your gear but it's never been an issue for me.

[wiley_p]

I am way undergunned getting into any kind of physics discussion with Sean, Hell, I can't even spell the kind of math he understands.:D

[Burnham]

I'm with Skwerly on this one...bigger than about 16 inches, I can't see enough side load to make a significant difference, though under 6 inches I'd be thinking hard about it.

I'm sure I'm also outdone in the mathmatics department by Sean, or almost anyone else, so my opinion is less than scientifically based.

I've had a small fortune in screwlock biners sitting in a box ever since the FS decided to follow ANSI into autolock hell...can you tell what my opinion is? :)

[wiley_p]

I'm with you on that Burnham. Funny, NFPA guidelines, ALL high angle rope rescue allows the use of screw gates, yet somehow they are not deemed safe for life support in tree work.

[Burnham]

Well, we DO have that "running rope" thing going on moreso than any other vert. discipline...nonetheless, in more than 30 years of institutionalized FS climbing program, where records are kept on every incident/accident, we have never had a fall caused by a screwlock opening or being left open accidentally.

'Course, we train and certify/re-certify to a high degree, which has to be a factor in our successful safety record.

[wiley_p]

Training is the key Burnham. That is something that is sorely lacking in the private sector.

[TC3]

Training is the key Burnham. That is something that is sorely lacking in the private sector.

You're right.
But I can tell you that I did receive some training by a very reputable climber (who shall remain anonymous) and during the demonstration of fall protection caught his own mistake of a screw gate carabiner being all the way loose instead of tightened.
If a seasoned climber can screw it up (no pun intended >>> no, really!), then I surely won't trust that piece of gear. Ever.
No record of an accident caused by this = it's never happened ???

[Bounce]

I used to use a screw lock biner to hold by macrograb flipline adjuster onto my saddle. I switched it out for a twist locking biner the day it fell off. :O I don't know how it happened, but then again I don't really care either. It's like going down the freeway one day and hitting the brakes only to realize you got nuthin. Even if those brakes worked fine every other day before that, how can you ever trust them again? That's assuming you live through the experience of course.

Sure the twist lock style carabiners are more difficult to open than the screw lockers, but that's the whole point isn't it? If they were easy to open they wouldn't be very safe would they? It took a little practice, but now I can open one with one hand while upside down and on fire during a tornado in a dynamite factory (ok - slight exageration, but close enough to reality). As long as it doesn't interfere with my productivity, I don't think there is such a thing as "too safe."

This is just my perspective though. You all gotta use what you believe in.

[Burnham]

You're right.
But I can tell you that I did receive some training by a very reputable climber (who shall remain anonymous) and during the demonstration of fall protection caught his own mistake of a screw gate carabiner being all the way loose instead of tightened.
If a seasoned climber can screw it up (no pun intended >>> no, really!), then I surely won't trust that piece of gear. Ever.
No record of an accident caused by this = it's never happened ???

I'm not sure I see your point, Teresa. If the expereienced climber caught the mistake, then his system of checking his fall protection before use worked as it should. He didn't screw anything up, he checked and corrected it, or am I misunderstanding?

And if you or anyone else thinks that by using an autolock biner you have either prevented the possibility that it will fail to lock, or that you have made it such that you no longer need to check the biner each time you use it, you are sadly mistaken.

In an agency climbing program as heavily controlled as the USFS one, I am pretty comfortable saying that if it was not reported, no climber was injured or killed due to a biner failure. Sure, it might happen, but so many required things would have to NOT happen for it to slip by that it gets to be a tiny possibility.

[TC3]

A cop that reports that there were never any cases of perp abuse will have a well documented history of that.
Burn, I do not mean to ram horns with you, but you've got to be f***ing joking me if you want me to believe that since there are no gov't. documented cases of screw gate failure, then it's a "given" that they don't exist ?
I refuse to argue about that.
All I know is from my own experience, I cannot rely on the screw-gate 'biner 100%.
I suspect that's my fault, since I have zero experience in the field. I do not mean that sarcasticallly... I truly have no experience.
I just know that my screw-gate 'biner can't be far enough away from me.
That speaks for my inexperience, in the truest fashion.

[No_Bivy]

biner failure is rare...operator error is more common.....CHECK, CHECK, DOUBLE CHECK!
biners....got to love em'
gravity check here.....non locker too:O
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[Stumper]

Confession. Being a radical rebellious sort I sometimes use screwgates for my second tie in when double or triple crotching. I know-I can(some would say should) carry more triple locks for those applications...but those little Positrons are so darn delightfully tiny, slick and efficient!

[Skwerl]

Positrons ROCK! :headbang:

[Burnham]

A cop that reports that there were never any cases of perp abuse will have a well documented history of that.
Burn, I do not mean to ram horns with you, but you've got to be f***ing joking me if you want me to believe that since there are no gov't. documented cases of screw gate failure, then it's a "given" that they don't exist ?
I refuse to argue about that.
All I know is from my own experience, I cannot rely on the screw-gate 'biner 100%.
I suspect that's my fault, since I have zero experience in the field. I do not mean that sarcasticallly... I truly have no experience.
I just know that my screw-gate 'biner can't be far enough away from me.
That speaks for my inexperience, in the truest fashion.

T, we are not even close to ramming horns :). I can make my point, you can make yours, we can rebutt each other, no problem on my end, girl.

I think perhaps you are misinterpreting my post. I have not said that "the gov't" has no documented cases of injury or death caused by use of screwlock biners for life support in tree climbing. That is clearly untrue...there are enough cases of exactly that happening to have caused concern. These cases are, to the best of my knowlege, within the private sector. It's part of my job to follow this stuff, and I take it pretty seriously.

I clearly limited my comments to tree climbers within the USFS tree climbing program...this is a discrete population of workers that operate under a heavily organized structure of training, certification, and tri-annually required re-certification. The negative consequenses for an employee and their supervision chain are quite unpleasant if a climber operates off the reservation, so to speak.

The FS system for keeping track of accidents, and the required protocols for reporting them are equally well regimented. Of course, an incident where no injury requireing medical care or lost time from work could easily run under the radar, but to receive compensation for medical care, and qualify for workman's comp., the paperwork HAS to be filed. The consequenses of dodging these requirements are even more stringent than those I mentioned above.

So I remain confident that within the sphere in which I operate, use of screwlock biners has not been the cause of injury or death. This is an admittedly limited sphere, but one I know pretty intimately.

No Bivy makes the point succinctly...screwlock biners don't fail very often, it's the operator error that results in problems.

And I say again, using autolocks relieves a climber not one iota of the need to check the security of her biner every single time it is put in play.

[TheTreeSpyder]

in rigging single use, non-violent, pretightend and aligned loads i've used non-locking a lot. Sometimes will use spin as 3rd life attatchmeant. Here i too favour less joggled, continuously loaded and aligned setup, for short, checked periods; with the lil'red notice light flashing in the back of my head. Another thing i'll due is load with gate pointing down, theorizing less chance of spinning to open positing uphill; but that is probably jest a mind set.

Most of my screw gates are steel i have left. So generally always have one as alternative to the non-locking foins and dynemma sets i have for standard rigging, and as the only steel, doubling as a throw weight, and 3rd tie options.

[xtremetrees]

I like a screw gate! I use a steel one(aluminum ain't heavy enough, on the flinging end of my rope safety. In cold weather I wear gloves and the auto lock slows me down. Normally I dont carry two safeties and I dont throwball all my removals so when I detach my rope lanyard, fling it over limb or whatever, I want attached back to the tree as quickly as possible. Then I set back relax and screw it down. I will probably continue using screwgates on my safety because I dont have two hands to work a auto lock. One hand is busy hanging on! I use a auto lock at my gibbs attachment point. Fire it and forget it, Edit (almost)
I never use screw gate biners to crab into a rope to rapell on (ie munter hitch.) The twisting of the rope as it runs could very easily unscrew the lock and thus escape the biner! Ive never seen the rope escape a screw gate but I theorize like kenny.

[Burnham]

Why not use a snaphook on your lanyard, R? Autolock and easy on/off, both in one device. That's my preference.

I use the autolock biners for all life support functions...no ifs, ands, or buts. I have a position as a mentor and role model for a goodly number of FS climbers nation-wide, so it's just not an option for me to skate the standards. I am used to them, and can open the styles I like one-handed in the dark, behind my back, either hand. But I don't think changeing to them from screwlocks has improved my personal safety...just my opinion, could be wrong, have been before :).

[xtremetrees]

Why not use a snaphook on your lanyard, R? Autolock and easy on/off, both in one device. That's my preference.

:).

Nice suggestion :)

[Bounce]

if you or anyone else thinks that by using an autolock biner you have either prevented the possibility that it will fail to lock, or that you have made it such that you no longer need to check the biner each time you use it, you are sadly mistaken.

Well said Burnham. A lot of the risks of using a screw locking biner can be avoided simply by inspecting it regularly as you climb. Just because somebody uses a positive locking biner doesn't mean they no longer have to do this.

[Bounce]

What is a "positron"? I googled it and found that it is the antimatter couterpart to the electron. It sure sounds expensive!

[Blinky]

Justin, that's funny to read that... I do almost the same thing. My 2nd crotch biner is a steel screwlock.

My eyesplice biner is a steel triple lock and my hitch biner is an HMS ball lock. I use a snap on my lanyard though.

[Burnham]

New item for Wesspur! Black hole for disposal of slash!

[Burnham]

Here ya go, Sean.

http://www.bdel.com/gear/positron_screw.php

[Skwerl]

Sean, here's a couple pictures of the Positron in screwgate and non locking versions. There is also a bent gate version.

http://www.gearexpress.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=G&Product_Code=2222SG

http://www.gearexpress.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=G&Product_Code=2222

[Burnham]

We are on this like you know what, eh Brian? :)

[Skwerl]

Not much gets past us, B! :D

[Frans]

I see alot of guys struggling with the auto lock biners.

You have to cradle the spine of the biner in your hand with the hinge of the gate closest to your index finger and thumb.
work the gate open by pushing downwards with your thumb and fingers.
Make sense?

[Bounce]

Looking at the Positron, I'm wondering what makes it so special. I see that it's got a keylock gate to prevent snagging and a standard d shape, but a lot of biners have those features. Is it particularly strong or lightweight? Is it made from that special alloy that attracts women (the proverbial chick magnet)? How come you guys like this one so much?

[Burnham]

It's the size, Sean. They are smaller than average, more like a ISC mighty mouse.

[TC3]

The whole idea is to bring up discussion.

[Stumper]

Sean, As Burnham said-the Positrons are quite small and lightweight.-Notably smaller than the Mighty Mouse in fact, AND they are very smooth operating little jewels.

[sotc]

i dont use screw locks at all. i had an auto locker come open on my flip line once in a very brushy tree, the nice thing is as long as it was loaded it wouldnt come off and would re lock. a screw gate would simply remain non locking. i hope that was the only time thats happened and i just noticed it but i wont allow my crew to climb on them

[Bounce]

If it isn't too much trouble, can somebody tell me what the gate opening is on the Positron? I've noticed that the gate opening usually tends to limit how small a biner can be; just wondering if this one has a particularly small opening as a result of its size.

[Skwerl]

Actually Sean, the Positron has a very good opening for it's size. Matter of fact, PM me with your addy and I'll send you one. I have about 2 dozen of them and rarely use them any more. You want a screwlock or non locking?
:D

[TC3]

Actually Sean, the Positron has a very good opening for it's size. Matter of fact, PM me with your addy and I'll send you one. I have about 2 dozen of them and rarely use them any more. You want a screwlock or non locking?
:D
You hardly use them any more because ???

[treetx]

Funny, other disciplines where you hang your life on a 'biner wouldn't dream of using aluminum 'biners yet use screw gates as SOP....go figure?

[Burnham]

If it isn't too much trouble, can somebody tell me what the gate opening is on the Positron? I've noticed that the gate opening usually tends to limit how small a biner can be; just wondering if this one has a particularly small opening as a result of its size.

The Black Diamond website says the gate opening for the screwlock Positron is 21mm, or 0.73 inches. It's rated at 25 kN, and weighs 56g., or 2 oz.

The stock is definitely smaller than the ISC MM.

[Blinky]

I can't count how many times I've trusted and fallen on lowly little aluminum flip gate biners. I own about 30 that are at least 20 years old. I read stories about rope looping and opening the gate but it never happened to anyone I know. I owned one Bonatti screw lock for rappelling on a figure eight.

Now I have half a dozen ball locks and another half dozen assorted triple action types, mostly steel. Work is different, trees are different... I like a nice Petzl ball lock biner. But I keep a steel screw lock on my gear loop all the time.

[Skwerl]

I found an old picture of the Positron in comparison to a Petzl Attache`. They look about the same size but the Positron is about half the bulk.

[MasterBlaster]

It wouldn't work with a HDP roller.

[Stumper]

Butch. No..but the Black Diamond Mini Pearabiner might....of course that is not a very good aplication for a screwgate 'biner.

BTW, Teresa asked what uses for screwgates are. Besides the obvious acceptable uses as rigging attachements and my scandalous use for secondary tie ins I also use a screwgate habitually for one "special" application. When I ascend SRT I often secure my ascent line in a way that would permit remote rescue if I were still on that line and leave the line in the tree during my work where it could serve as an access line for other personell. To do so I sling the base of the tree and clip in a figure 8 with the ascentl ine locked off on the eight. My choice of biner is a screwgate. Whether or not such use would be considered "kosher" by anyone's reading of ANSI Z133 is totally irrelevant to me. If I ever need rescued(God forbid) odds are that it will be by the local fire dept. or a rock climber. The SAR folks are familiar with eights and screwgates and any arrangement that might add confusion for them for even a few seconds would be silly IMO.