Clean up Techniques

[brendonv]

This might sound like a stupid question, but I was watching some of Ekka's old vids and it got me thinking.

Considering a 2 man crew...climber/groundmans.

From your experience, is it easier for the climber to bomb everything down onto the ground (everything but the spar), and come down and help cleanup. Or have you found it easier to chip as ya go.

I hate having the chipper run all day. My current method is to have groundy chip in spurts, but he gets pissy having to stage the brush and work around it (he's family :roll: ). It seems I spend a lot of time sitting in the tree waiting...burns a lot of time, and seems hard on the body.

I'm thinking of trying the bombing out everything method. 2 people moving brush and with the mini the tangles would be easy to clean up.

What have you found the best.?

[sotc]

id rather chip as you go, ive worked for companies that did it each way and have personally found the chipper doesnt use that much fuel under no load or idle. then again not to brushy of a tree might be better to swamp him and come help out. depends on the job

[Jonseredbred]

Cleaning as you go. It may be faster and easier on the bucket/climber but you will wear ground help out making a rats nest on them.

Staging brush is handling it 2x and no $$ can be made overhandling anything.

You should get practiced well enough as a crew that the ground crew can rope something down and get it cleaned up just in time for you to be ready for the next cut.

[Skwerl]

IMO most brush pilots don't know how to stack brush and will go so far as to ignore instructions on how to do so in order to make their job easier. They typically like to keep each and every piece of brush separated so that all the brush gets spread out all over the entire yard. So therefore when working in tight areas they 'run out of room' after about 4 limbs. :roll:

I used to gnash my teeth and fight with every single groundman I ever worked with because none of them could 'get the picture' of stacking the brush so that the last piece on top will be the first piece off. I'd cut everything to size and try to make it so easy but nobody cared. Now I just bomb everything and ignore the cleanup crew and everybody is much happier. (In other words most brush draggers are too stupid to realize that you're creating more work for them and will happily fight brush as long as you let them)

So therefore I suggest you just get it on the ground instead of killing time waiting for them to fight with trying to do it your way. It's just brush and untangling a pile isn't that big of a deal.

[MasterBlaster]

It's just like anything, you clean up as you go.

[Jonseredbred]

Brian, I dont understand why you would stack brush next to a chipper instead of just chipping it and getting it out of the way???

[Canuck]

Untangling brush aint that hard. I say bomb and go, keep your climber happy, let the ground crew work a little harder. I find it next to impossible to find groundsmen that will do it the way you teach them for more than a day or two and guys like that are a dime a dozen. Let em get worn out, quit on you, hire another. Climbers on the other hand are much harder to find so keep them healthy and happy.

[Skwerl]

Andrew, on removals you chip as you go but sometimes on trims the brush comes slow. and if there's a long drag then it doesn't make sense to leave the chipper running to chip one limb every 2 minutes. On some detail trims a person can climb for 3 hours and have 10 minutes of chipping on the ground.

[NickfromWI]

Either they wait for you, or you wait for them.

I think this would seriously be worth doing some scientific experimenting on. I'm sure a lot of people would like to KNOW which is faster.

love
nick

[No_Bivy]

Chip when you can......but, since you are mini equipped, sometimes staging is faster. Small piles on which mini can dominate.....Every removal is different, and you have to think outside the box sometimes. Two minis'.....now that would be plush............:D

[squisher]

Now different opinion here. My climbing experience comes from the bush, forget the ground whatever works for the climber is best. Anyone can drag brush on the ground, Oh yah say what ya want but really 'anyone can drag brush around on the ground'. Keep the climber happy keep him busy, clean-up later.

You think anyone can climb trees???? Think again. Anyone CAN drag brush, keep the climber happy.

[MasterBlaster]

I can dig it.

[squisher]

Heh just saying it the way it is. If you work the ground only, you are replaceable unless you're a crazy faller or something. If you can climb and dismantle trees you are pretty much irreplaceable around here.

I'm really hoping to become a much better climber over the next few years.

[Greenhorn]

I feel ya man, just finished hopefully my last year of me and just one groundie. Removals SUCK with two. I hate having the chipper running when I am in the tree - with a two man crew. 90 percent of the time my latest guy can have the last piece cut and to the chipper just about the time the next is rigged up. And I come down for a drink and we chip and then back to work. The chuck and duck eats fast.

[squisher]

Ha you love the chuck n' duck? I hate mine. I got negotiations ongoing on a new autofeed bandit. I feel your pain though. Nothing sucks more than dismantling the tree and then having to help feed it throught the chipper.

[sotc]

i dont mind helping, i just dont want to do it all!

[top hopper]

Good topic!

Of course it depends on the job for the most part. But if there is room for it I choose to hammer the tree then hit the ground and help processing. If its a 2 man crew, Im not gonna sit and wait in the tree while my groundie is chipping unless I have to. Sometimes though you run out of staging room and you have to stop and clean house. Either way chip in spurts, no need to run the chipper every minute of the day.
And definatly use the mini to forward, have groundie leave limbs as long as possible and stage things for the mini to pull it apart. (if you are rigging alot, it may be all a 2 man crew can do at once).
The way I see it- the least amount of time I spend climbing, the better.

[lumberjack]

I bomb it then clean it up. Having a mini makes the tangles easy to mangage.

If there aint enough room to do that the of course we'd have to chip as we go, but normally that's not the case.

[stehansen]

We almost always clean up as we go. I'm usually the climber and I just wait or usually take the time to move my TIP or the pulley.

[Old Monkey]

I try to get people to stack brush like Brian mentioned but everyone seems resistant. It really is the easiest to stack it back to front with everything peeling off the top. Occasionally, I bury the ground crew but not as a rule.

[rumination]

I think it really depends on the job, but I agree with John (tophopper) that there is no reason that the chipper should run all day. Either chip in spurts or chip it all at the end, whatever is more appropriate. Leaving the chipper running non stop will wear you and your crew down from noise fatigue and from the difficulty of communication.

Interestingly there are almost no chippers in Hong Kong because any type of tow behind trailer is prohibited with the exception of container trucks.

[treesandsurf]

Leon, what do the guys do with all the materials?
\
jp:D

[rumination]

Slash it down in trucks. I'm not sure where they dump it though. I should ask.

[Jonseredbred]

Brian, I am posting with the assumption Brendon was asking about removals. I agree that staging would be ok for small trimming jobs.

That being said it seems that there are some climbers here who have not done enough groundwork, your opinions would be different because facing bombed tree's day in and day out would lead to a short career.

A good ground crew is priceless. if you have the attitude that any $10.00 guy will do you are heading in the wrong direction. A good ground crew will make you more $$ in the long run than a good climber that won't work with a ground crew because its easier for him to bomb shit.

[brendonv]

Hey guys.

Yes, I am talking removals. It's good to get other opinions. Some of these trees you guys post and say "1 hr climbing" I say to myself holy moly. I spend way to much time sitting around in the tree getting fatigued.

I am a two man show, all the time. I climb and my brother chips. Whatever gets us home quicker the happier we are.

[wiley_p]

Wow its threads like this that piss me off. What kind of man thinks so highly of himself and so little of the folks he works with that the attitude is bomb it down, fuck em, they are not equal to me anyway. Nice attitude.
Since I train treemen, not climbers and not groundguys, we don't have the issues that exist still on a lot of tree crews. Its called teamwork folks. If you want to shitpile the crew then get down and help untangle the jackpot that was made fine. But to ratbastard the guys just so you can get out of the tree, negative, thats not how brothers work together. Is it saddle time thats hurts? What do you do if its a rigging removal in a tight dz? Break shit? Climber/Ground bullshit, can't have one going smooth without the other goddammit!:X :evil:

[pete mctree]

Climber/Ground bullshit, can't have one going smooth without the other goddammit!:X :evil:

The truth!!

[brendonv]

Wow its threads like this that piss me off. Climber/Ground bullshit, can't have one going smooth without the other goddammit!:X :evil:

Damn! Tell us how you feel!

[gf beranek]

Yeah, it's teamwork, alright. As long as it's all in sync. A crew that has worked together for some time can acommplish that on most jobs. But when it gets out of sync and the chipper is just running to burn fuel I can get a little turbed. Tell the guys, "shut that thing down, please!"

On one big job working with the entire Eegger Beaver crew , I had a good groundie under me, roping and lowering into the hole, Grunts waiting eagerly to drag brush to a running chipper, stump grinder running at the same time, two saws running and a splitter (wood guys) I couldn't communicate with my groundie. There was just too much racket going on down below. That was one of the most frustrating moments in my entire career.

If it were just the groundie, brush crew and me it would have been a lot easier.

[top hopper]

To clarify- I was a groundie for years before becoming a climber, and I aint no Prima Donna, Im not afraid to hump brush or feed the chipper, in fact do it more than I should being the owner.
I simply do what is most efficient....determined by the site and surrounding conditions. And normally, that means= tree down faster= more money.
If you had a flopper, would you flop it or climb it? Of course you would flop it and help clean up and move to the next job. Again, tree down faster= more money. Now is hammering it down going to hinder or slow ground operations?

[lumberjack]

When I started, the way I saw it was the more time I spent aloft, them more time I was at the highest risk and they were at a higher risk (couldn't run a saw for chit).

Then I got to where me and Daniel could really get to flying, he'd stack stuff out of the way and I'd get back to terra firma.

Now that I have a chip truck/chipper/mini and lift, I work alone alot. I still bomb everything to the ground and assault it at once. If it's one tree that I can get on one load I load the trunk first, then spray the chips in, which I find much easier.

[Greenhorn]

friend of mine has a crew where all three guys can do it all. Seems to work good and be very flexible. Have heard of other successful operations that do that and do well.

[treetx]

What kind of man thinks so highly of himself and so little of the folks he works with that the attitude is bomb it down, fuck em, they are not equal to me anyway. Nice attitude.
.......... Its called teamwork folks........ Climber/Ground bullshit, can't have one going smooth without the other goddammit!:X :evil:

Sorry but they are not equal. They pick up sticks for beer money. That and my time is simply worth more than theirs. This is evidenced by what the market will pay for my time.

I won't bury the lads but I will make it easier on me. I either prefer big pieces when possible, letting them clean/process while I reposition for another big piece. That of small and flake a lot of small stuff fast, pausing to left them clear the area somewhat.

Yes, it is team work, but there is a leader. Yes, a good ground crew is golden.

Maybe my head is that way from my last gig. I was a climber. My job, climb and put is on the ground...then drive away.......not a climber/raker/brush dragger.....

[sotc]

friend of mine has a crew where all three guys can do it all. Seems to work good and be very flexible. Have heard of other successful operations that do that and do well.

to me this is the best setup

[Big A]

working in a confined space, rigging out a tree, gotta keep the site clean and safe. Cant be working with ropes tangled and trapped under brush. Open space, let the climber bang it out , then clear a load up, bang out some more. Groundies not worth as much as a climber???? WTF planet are some of you on??? No wonder they aint any good with this sort of attitude! Seems to me that some climbers are too far up their own asses. Its about teamwork, pure and simple, a good team earns good money, a poor one bad money. Get over it!!:)

[Frans]

The answer to the question of is it faster or slower to create a pile or to clean as you go depends on the job.

There is no one way to do it and if you are doing it only one way, then you are not working smart.

In my town this guy has a big beautiful truck and chipper. He keeps it so clean you can eat off it.
He likes to park it far away from the job so it doesn't get dirty and make the groundies drag brush to it. Sometimes from very far away

[squisher]

I've never worked with a good/experienced groundsmen so I guess that makes my view certainly a little biased/uneducated. I do quite a few jobs alone and even if I am lucky enough to have a unexperienced grounds person with me obviously it's my job so I'm working until the last twig is raked. That's kind of my point as ignorant as it sounds for me without the groundsperson I can still get the job done granted nothing very technical but without the climber?

I'd agree what I'm striving to work towards is a small crew were everyone climbs or cleans. Spread it out, no primadonnas but everyone will be equal because everyone will climb.

[MasterBlaster]

Whutta idiotski. (Fran's guy)

[Frans]

Whutta idiotski. (Fran's guy)

:lol: I always call him a cro-magnum man! And no, I wont work with him shiny truck or no.

[Jonseredbred]

Squish, everyone on my crew can climb. Everyone works together and there is no prima donna bullshit.

[Frans]

Squish, everyone on my crew can climb. Everyone works together and there is no prima donna bullshit.

I don't know for sure but based on this quote, you have the same set-up as I do :thumbup:

[gf beranek]

Hey, you gotta protect the paint, Mang!

[Skwerl]

Maybe I may sound like the prima dona climber type, but I've spent as much or more time dragging brush than climbing and I never intentionally try to make the ground work any harder than absolutely necessary. But since I no longer work with any good ground crews, I've gotten even less willing to continually try to make life easier for guys who don't give a crap. And most of the time if I stop to allow them time to catch up, they just continue to stand there and watch me anyway. They are unwilling to do anything underneath me until I am completely finished. So the best thing I can do is get it finished so they can get to work.

This is probably one of the only aspects of treework that I miss since focusing on subcontracting only. I miss working with a good skilled groundman where we can read each other's minds and anticipate the other's moves. It ceases being work and becomes more like a graceful dance, with limbs flying and ropes singing and everybody in sync.
:)

So in conclusion I guess the groundman will dictate how I plan the job. I'll work with any groundman willing to work with me. But if you wanna stand there and watch then I'm gonna bury you and we can unscramble it once i'm down. :D

[Jonseredbred]

working with a good skilled groundman where we can read each other's minds and anticipate the other's moves. It ceases being work and becomes more like a graceful dance, with limbs flying and ropes singing and everybody in sync.
:)



Brendon, This is what you and your brother should be working towards. Once you establish this the sky is the limit.

[MasterBlaster]

I feel the same as Brian.

[Monkeypuzzle]

When I got settled here in Montana I started reaching out to the tree guys, just to let them know I was around if they needed a hand.

Rejected by all.

Finally I get a call from The Tree Man. I was to help remove a row of about 13 Russian olive(windbreak). Just he and I.

First thing he told me was not to touch his saws, he did all the sawing. Not a problem, they were homeowner Sthils anyway. I was to chip brush.

I really wanted to show this treeman what I was made of so I busted my butt...I wanted to impress the guy no dought.

I rock n rolled ...had the brush chipped and the firewood loaded before he had the stumps ground. He was pissed because I was watching him work I think.

He would take breaks to blow his bucket truck off...blew his saw off a few times along with the 15hp. dosko stumpgrinder. He was killing time, he bids his jobs as an hourly thing I guess and had plans for a two day gig.

He paid me 100 bucks for about a 9hr day of bustin ass and never called me back.


He knows.

[MasterBlaster]

:lol:

[sotc]

thats funny but 100 bucks? the jerk, maybe you can hire him in the future:D

[High Scale]

We did a little job the other day in a church yard, myself and my mate Dan each had a tree to work on, he had a roof under him, I had phone lines and some rather old, ornate grave stones under mine, I had Dans wife and Paul on the ground clearing as I cut, Dan bombed his out, my tree took two hours and had been pretty much cleared when I hit the deck, Dans tree took two hours to cut the two further hours to chip the next day.

[pigwot]

I always help with cleanup, no matter how many trees I'd been up. It says something to those you're working with... you show them that you value what they are doing when you get down and drag, too. I teach the new groundies how to stack three to four pieces so they can drag them easily. Once they have the area well-fanned out with these lift-able small piles, the chipper runs minimally to clear them. The hearing protectors with the 2-way radios built into them are a good investment. A 9v battery per day if all the equipment is running keeps you sane and in communication with your groundperson. Then if you are rigged and ready they can leave the chipper and manage the lowering line. The larger chipper with the winch can make it possible to keep the brush cleared efficiently and create less tangle underfoot. Respect builds self esteem and when you show respect you are typically rewarded by an increased likelihood that your ground team will work harder. A desire to do better grows commensurate with the attitude with which you approach your employees.
As to the fellow who keeps his 'clean' truck far away from the mess... he needs to reassess his priorities. When we are taking lunch or finished for the day (when working with someone new) usually we'll end up leaning on or sitting on my truck. It's at that point that I'll brusquely warn the new guy not to scuff my paint job. I always get a puzzled look as the old 1987 beast is quite faded and sporting some rust, too. :)
Be safe up there...