knives

[pantheraba]

I habitually have a knife with me...this Benchmade, slim design for pocket carry and general utility use.

Today I received two orange Gerber Hinderer Rescue Knives. My son, Alex, is a rookie fireman...he always carries a knife, too. I asked him if there was any official issue fireman knife and the answer was "no". I have always felt having a knife handy is not only useful but can be life-saving. This one is designed with Firefighter/Paramedics in mind as a self-rescue tool as well as an aid to rescuing others.

The times I have needed my knife in a tree it was always hard to get out of my pocket...the New Tribe leg straps/pads are holding it tight. I'll see if I can find a way to make this one more accessible.

The first knife goes to Alex...we had researched them a few weeks ago and then he went to the firefighter training school. He came home on a break and asked if the knives had arrived yet!! I think that was my hint to go ahead and order them. At $63 each it looks like a good deal.

I'll let you know how it does. There is a write-up here if you are interested in details:

http://www.equipped.org/hinderer_rescue.htm

What utility/rescue knives do you guys carry? How do you carry them?

Especially, how do you carry them aloft?

[Paul B]

that looks like a cool piece of kit Gary. I have a gerber multiplier with the tool kit scabbard (the screwdriver bits), I carry that when I go on a long roadsie or camping. day to day I dont find much need for a knife in my pocket.

[Burnham]

Always have carried a knife, since I was a lad of 9 or 10. My father did, guess that's where I came by it. Can't imagine not having a knife on my person.

Day in, day out, I keep a SOG Paratool in a belt scabbard on my right hip. For dress up occasions I carry a little Swiss Army knife in my pocket. Climbing, I carry a Gerber folding blade with a flick open feature. It's in a skeletonized handle with a clip. I either carry it clipped on my chest harness, or in my radio bra, if I'm wearing that.

[Burnham]

http://sogknives.com/store/S31.html

http://www.gerbergear.com/product.php?model=1432

http://www.swissarmy.com/MultiTools/Pages/Product.aspx?category=everyday&product=54091&

[Al Smith]

I have a knife with me always and have since a small boy. I prefer a "stockman" style ,three blade.

[brendonv]

Where's Carl? He carries a whole toolbox in his pockets.

[Old Monkey]

I never do. I just borrow other people's knives when I need them. So let me say thank you to all you guys who can always be counted on to have a knife on your person. You guys sure are handy.

[Burnham]

I never do. I just borrow other people's knives when I need them. So let me say thank you to all you guys who can always be counted on to have a knife on your person. You guys sure are handy.

Hahaha, lol. :lol:
Maybe you ought to think about being useful yourself, once in a while. :D

[Old Monkey]

Nah.

[Tom_Scheller]

I have a little Kershaw Leek (http://www.thekershawstore.com/Kershaw_Leek_Plain_p/k1660.htm) that I really like. I carry it everyday and use it all the time. If I ever manage to wear it out I will replace it with a partially serrated blade.

TS

[Hobby Climber]

I have a good folding blade knife in my bag thats attached to my saddle when climbing.

Other than that, I just have an assortment of hunting, skinning and butchering knives for when I go hunting.

For the money, you can't beat the quality of a "MORA" high carbon steel knife.

(e-bay sells tons of them)!;)


HC

[OTGBOSTON]

http://www.kershaw-knives.net/Kershaw-Ken-Onion-Chive-Serrated-1600ST.htm

This is the one I carry everyday. fits right in the leg pocket of my arborwear climbers....

[Chisel Tooth]

Like most of you I have carried a knife from a young age, farm life ya know. I carry a folding blade nothing fancy for daily use, and I also carry a folding box knife. This is the one I use everyday multible times a day.

[No_Bivy]

here's mine

[MasterBlaster]

No knives here. I rely on my razor-sharp wit.

[KGmyrek]

I use this one

[Koa Man]

My EDC [Every Day Carry] is a 6 inch blade Cold Steel Voyager for work. While climbing I slip it into a pouch on my saddle.

When going out shopping, dinner, or any place other than work, I carry 3 knives. A 7.25 inch blade Cuda Maxx and two 3 inch fixed blades along with a small blackjack. Hawaii does not allow ccw [guns] and has a 5 yr. prison term for it. It is very knife friendly, no limit on blade length. I have a friend who carries around a 18 inch blade Cold Steel Kopis machete in his daypack all over the place along with a 6 inch Voyager.

The 7.25 Cuda is the long knife in the bottom right of the 1st picture. The 2 Cudas next to it are 5.5 inch versions. No longer being made [Camillus went out of business] and being a limited production run to begin with, the Cuda sell for more than 3 times what I paid for them 3 years ago. I bought the 5.5 versions for $110 and paid $207 for the 7.25 incher. I have been looking on the Internet for a 7.25 for over 6 months and have not seen even 1 for sale. EBay had someone selling the 5.5 version for $599 a couple of weeks ago.
I have many other knives not shown in these pictures. Needless to say, I love knives!

[TheTreeWiseMen]

Always have a Kershaw, Ken Onion thingy somewhere close by. And a Leatherman too.

[MasterBlaster]

Why pack three knives around? Is crime that bad there?

[pantheraba]

Why pack three knives around? Is crime that bad there?

Some places it is...we visited there four times, family trips, lotsa fun. On one trip, my brother-in-law (who we stayed with) was living in a reasonable and respectable section of Honolulu...but, apparently, not too far from a bad section. All of us except my wife went bowling. While we were gone, a young dude came thru the side door (granted, it wasn't locked, should have been) and accosted her at gunpoint. Somehow, he got distracted, she was able to run past him and run screaming down the street for the neighbors to call the police.

She said he did not seem real good at being a robber...thankfully for all of us. She did say she was glad that I wasn't there...he was such a bad robber she was afraid I would have just killed him...who knows?

Cops never did catch him for that crime...but, the bad guys are certainly "out there".

[pantheraba]

I have a little Kershaw Leek (http://www.thekershawstore.com/Kershaw_Leek_Plain_p/k1660.htm) that I really like. I carry it everyday and use it all the time. If I ever manage to wear it out I will replace it with a partially serrated blade.

TS

Tom,

That looks a WHOLE lot like the Benchmade I carry...if you replace it, you will like the serrations...but, I agree, only half serrated...I still like the smooth belly cutting area.

[lumberjack]

I am a Benchmade fan.

I'll carry a pair of these (5000 SBK) when my old one gets back (sent back Tuesday) from getting the blade replaced and the new one gets off back order.

http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=5000

The second SBK is replacing this 556S because the 5000 takes a better edge although they are made from the same steel. Another benifit is they are both autos.

http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=556

Occasionally I carry this on the belt, but it's fairly rare these days:

http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=175


When climbing I take my right knife off and leave the other in the left pocket typically speaking. In the lift I don't worry about it.

[lumberjack]

Oh, Gary, that 556 I'm replacing is the one I bought with you at REI.

In CT Brendon was apparently in love with how smooth the axis setup is. He would sit there and watch the blade swing back and forth (basically gravity knife smooth).

[Monkeypuzzle]

Spyderco here.

[lumberjack]

Here's my only knife related picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Gun/DSC04052.jpg

[sotc]

ive got several pocket knives, it takes several as im always losing them:) and always finding another

[Koa Man]

Why pack three knives around? Is crime that bad there?

If I need it to save my ass, the 7.25 inch blade might need more room than I have to deploy. The small fixed blades, one on each side, can be deployed even if someone came from behind and grabbed me in a bear hug. I just want to be ready and that's why I study and practice knife fighting as well. A knife in even the hands of an untrained person is worth several years of martial arts training against an unarmed attacker.

Physical assaults here are probably far less than a big mainland city. The vast majority of crimes here are property crimes like car theft and burglary.

[MasterBlaster]

I think you're overly paranoid.

[squisher]

Frig that half the reason I carry a knife is self defense, the other half is for peeling the skins off apples.:D

[No_Bivy]

Frig that half the reason I carry a knife is self defense, the other half is for peeling the skins off apples.:D

the one I hide...........
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[GASoline71]

I've been carrying some form of a knife, be it pocket, folding, or fixed blade on me since I was about 10 years old.

I have only carried Buck Knives (http://www.buckknives.com/). :)

The first knife I got was a Buck. It was given to me by my Grandpa... and I still have it. Been a fan of their knives ever since.

Gary

[MasterBlaster]

the one I hide...........



Why did he let that guy cut him? No block or parry at all! Wack!

[Blinky]

I've carried one since I was little. I prefer 3 blade Case Trappers, carbon steel so I can keep them sharp. I lost three from falling out of my pocket while climbing though so now I carry a $6.00 barlow.

[sotc]

Why did he let that guy cut him? No block or parry at all! Wack!

it was choryagraphed, they wernt following through with their swings and were being real carefull

[Paul B]

I have a couple swiss army knives, gerber multiplier, a schrade, a buck, a spyderco, a cheapo boot knife... and some other non significant knives. I pack something when camping or hiking. otherwise nada.

[MasterBlaster]

it was choryagraphed, they wernt following through with their swings and were being real carefull


Thanks for clearing that up, I thought it was for real... :|:

[Stumper]

I always have a little Victorinox SignatureII on my key minibiner, A Wenger Highlander in my right front pocket and a Leatherman Juice in the left front pocket. I have habitually carried a pocketknife since I was 8 years old. I still have the first knife I lost. (I lost my BoyScout knife in my grandfathers garden-he found it when he dug potatoes).
Be prepared! I like being prepared but it is pretty pathetic when I find myself the only man in a room full of adults with the means to open a package.
At times I have carried a cheap Spyderco knockoff on my saddle but admit that I quit bothering-my current saddles allow me to get into the pockets on my Arborwear britches.

[wiley_p]

I always have a blade, always have. Seems odd that a man would not have some sort of knife.

[stehansen]

I always lose mine.

[Paul B]

innocuously I have been mistaken. On my toolbelt I have my felco #6, a 15x 20x magnifier and a victorinox pruning / grafting knife. about 4 inch folding knife. when not in work garb I do not have a blade on me.

[Koa Man]

I think you're overly paranoid.

Maybe I am. When walking in a parking lot, etc., I always have my hand resting on one of the knives. If I am going to be mugged or attacked, the other party is going to pay somehow. I already made up my mind and instilled in my daughters and wife, to never allow anyone to force you into a vehicle to so they can take you somewhere and torture you and kill you at their leisure. Just last week a guy in the next town from where I live was forced into a van and taken to someplace where another guy was waiting and beaten. If someone wants to kill me, they are going to have to do it where I am....I am NOT about to be taken to a remote area and let some punks have their fun with me and then kill me. Even if they have a gun, they will have to shoot me. If they grabbed me, they will be cut and I am not going quietly.

I think I am paranoid. :lol:

[lumberjack]

I think you're overly paranoid.

I still haven't figured out why people feel the need to inject their trivial opinions into every conversation pertaining to self preservation. It would seem that since they add no tangible value to the discussion they would best be left out of the conversation.

I can't see where what I or anyone else does in the name of preparing for self preservation effects anyone but ourselves , perhaps our immediate family, and the threat to that person(s). Since it only effects those not in the conversation, why say things such as that?

Maybe I'll take that class where I figure that out next semester.:roll:

[lumberjack]

To answer the poll I didn't see earlier.

Since I never always do anything, I vote that I have one nearly all the time I'm dressed, but sometimes I forget.

[rumination]

Carl, I think you're being overly paranoid. :D

[lumberjack]

:lol:

[stehansen]

Koa Man you are right not to get into the car. Make your stand in the parking lot where at least there will be witnesses, and the bad guys don't want anyone watching.

[MasterBlaster]

I still haven't figured out why people feel the need to inject their trivial opinions into every conversation pertaining to self preservation. It would seem that since they add no tangible value to the discussion they would best be left out of the conversation.

I can't see where what I or anyone else does in the name of preparing for self preservation effects anyone but ourselves , perhaps our immediate family, and the threat to that person(s). Since it only effects those not in the conversation, why say things such as that?

Maybe I'll take that class where I figure that out next semester.:roll:


Yeah, Carl, whatever. I'm thinking maybe YOU outta carry four knives. You're striking me as the kind of person who puts themselves IN that type of position.

"inject their trivial opinions?" I'll inject whatever in the hell I want to inject anytime I wanna inject it. You gotta problem with that? :X

[Al Smith]

Hmm,I thought the topic was more about knives being used as a tool,cutting line ,stripping wire etc. Well,that's what use mine for at least. Oh,I use it to clean my finger nails also. Too dangerous to use as a toothpick.

[Paul B]

Al, thats about where I figure my knife is handy, I dont consider it as a protection device although if pressed I guess it might cross my mind lacking any other weapons.

[Chisel Tooth]

Why would you want to pick a tooth? :? Arkansas toothpick, isn't that what they call Rambos knife.

[MasterBlaster]

Rambo's knife is a model all it's own, a different model for each flick.

[Chisel Tooth]

But the guy that makes them, doesn't he call his knives Arkansas toothpicks?

[Paul B]

Rambo knife...ha, I had one of those knives back in the mid 80's as a teenager. 10 dollar crappy knockoff.

[MasterBlaster]

I'm not sure, I don't think so. An Arkansas toothpick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkansas_toothpick) is a specific type of knife.

http://www.blacksquirrelonline.com/img/products/k828%20small.jpg

Here's (the first three) the Rambo knives.

http://www.northlandgifts.com/images/items/UCRAMBO.jpg

[Chisel Tooth]

Cool, Sweet looking blade there. Thanks Butch I wasn't sure.

[Al Smith]

As far as knifes for weapons,I have a Toledo steel switch blade.It isn't illeagal to own one but it is to carry one. I use mine for a letter opener.

At one time you could buy these things for 4 or 5 bucks in Spain.Actually any of the famous Toledo steel knives were cheap in that country.

[Paul B]

My Rambo knife was similiar to the first one in your pic MB, with a compass in the butt of the handle and a bunch of nonsense packed IN The handle. but it surely were a crappy knockoff. :)

[Ax-Man]

I always lose mine.

:lol: :lol: Me too, that is why I never have one. Besides I can't stand having anything in my pockets as it is. That includes coins and keys too.

I do have a variety of different knives and cutting gizmos in my toolbox compartment of my truck with the service body on it. They seem to get used for everything other than cutting rope and are always dull.

You guys have some serious hardware going on here.

I must be missing something with this climbing trees and needing a knive up there. I have never had a need to have a knife with me up in a tree while climbing. Why do you guys carry one up in a tree??

[MasterBlaster]

A knife may be needed for a rescuer in case a rope needs to be cut, but a climber doesn't necessarily need to be packing one.

I keep my military issue TL-29 in my toolbox.

http://kitup.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/16/k1103b.jpg

[Tom_Scheller]

I'm not sure, I don't think so. An Arkansas toothpick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkansas_toothpick) is a specific type of knife.

I think if I was in nogun Hawaii I'd probably carry one of those. ...with a can of Dog's bear spray.
Oooh better yet, how about Chingachgook's war club from The Last of the Mohicans.

TS

[Tom_Scheller]

I also carry ignition plyers (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00904513000P?vName=Tools&keyword=ignition). Boy are they handy.

TS

[MasterBlaster]

Here's my pig sticker.

[Chisel Tooth]

Sweet now that's a knife, you get rained out again Butch?

[Al Smith]

I keep my military issue TL-29 in my toolbox.

http://kitup.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/16/k1103b.jpg
You still have your original one,wow. I have a couple but I have no idea what became of the one I was issued.

[Ax-Man]

I see your point Butch. A simple folding pocket knife that would most likely be found on the job , if it is on the job at all, is going to take some effort to get through some of these ropes we have today. The handsaws we have today would be a more common tool on the job and accessable and would cut a rope quicker than a pocketknife. I might be wrong on this statement as I have never cut rope with a handsaw. It doesn't take much effort to take a chunk out of a rope with one of those handsaws. Another tool that would be handy if it was on the jobsite would be a pair of pruning shears.

Personally, if I had to rescue you those two tools would be more accessable and sharper than any knife I would have on the jobsite, if I had one at all.

[Koa Man]

I think if I was in nogun Hawaii I'd probably carry one of those. ...with a can of Dog's bear spray.
Oooh better yet, how about Chingachgook's war club from The Last of the Mohicans.

TS

Lots of guns in Hawaii, except the only ones packing them on the streets are the criminals whose crime they are or are about to commit will net them more than the min. 1 year/max. 5 years for carrying without a license. The chief of police can issue a ccw license, according to state law, but no chief has ever issued one in the history of the state.

[sotc]

sounds like its time for another cheif:)

[MasterBlaster]

Sweet now that's a knife, you get rained out again Butch?

Yep, it's pretty much basically rained every day this week. And to top it off, all I have are trims and I hate climbing wet trees sans spurs.


You still have your original one,wow. I have a couple but I have no idea what became of the one I was issued.


I do still have it, but that's a pic from the web. Mine looks exactly like that, only more beat up. I can't imagine how many access panels I popped open with it.

[lumberjack]

Yeah, Carl, whatever. I'm thinking maybe YOU outta carry four knives. You're striking me as the kind of person who puts themselves IN that type of position.

"inject their trivial opinions?" I'll inject whatever in the hell I want to inject anytime I wanna inject it. You gotta problem with that? :X

The most often thing I do with a knife is clean my nails and cuticles in class, followed by various work tasks which resulted in a broken blade. I want two so I have equal access to either hand, and an auto so I don't have to fumble with opening it while I'm in some odd position.

I stopped carrying the push blade because while it was a handy shape for opening mail, it served little other purpose.

I carried the smaller blade for grubbier work, the bigger blade for the clean cutting. I'm replacing the smaller blade because it doesn't hold an edge like the bigger one.

My last physical altercation was a decade ago when I was in my 6th grade gym class. I've been in less than ten bars/clubs in my life, don't believe I've ever had more than a beer in any of them, normally I don't drink. I've been inebriated six times in my life only once when I wasn't with a small group of friends.

..... yep, I look for trouble and black helicopters.

[Paul B]

even I got in to more trouble than that LJ! :D

[GASoline71]

My pocket knife gets used for everything from cleaning fingernails, to cleaning trout. Cutting bagels, to opening up a duck for field dressing.

I know... sounds gross... but I do clean it after having it up a fish or ducks butt... LMAO...

Gary

[pantheraba]

..... yep, I look for trouble and black helicopters.

Hahaha...me, too. I just KNOW those black choppers are watching...ALL the time. I can almost see them in my peripheral vision but they always barely manage to dart away as I start to see them. ;)

I use mine to open boxes and packages at work, cut shroud line when hanging tarps, for lots of stuff when camping...sometimes to help clear a jammed round (reloads for .380s were bad about expanding after the 5th or so reload of them..had a few cases get stuck..especially when developing loads...may have been overpressure :\: ), etc.

AxMan asked about use aloft. I have used to test punky wood in a dead pine before...I guyed a leaning pine recently with chains...I used nylon string to secure the chain hooks so they couldn't flop loose if a wind came overnight before I got back to the tree...I used the knife to cut loose all that twine when I derigged...etc.

And if I ever do need to cut a lanyard or rope I would rather use a knife than a Silky.

[Chisel Tooth]

There ya go Gary, it's not a knife it's a multitool, everything from wire strippers to cheese slicer.

[MasterBlaster]

THat's why I pack my toolbox.

[Chisel Tooth]

You got it bro.:thumbup:

[squisher]

Ha Carl man, you need to roll in the dirt a little more. I've always found fighting to be refreshing. It's been about three years since I went toe to toe with a clown in the parking lot of my gas station, I'll bet he wasn't expecting that. Win or lose a roll in the dirt is good for the soul.:thumbup:

No need to beat someone to death, just prove your point is all.

[MasterBlaster]

Hahaha! Hell yeah!

[Paul B]

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a parking lot tussle? :D

[MasterBlaster]

Leeland's cool.

[Paul B]

wonder if they will put the show back on. :(

[sotc]

haha squishy:)

[Monkeypuzzle]

What? The son?

[MasterBlaster]

Sure, about one minute after hell freezes over. ;)


wonder if they will put the show back on. :(

[Monkeypuzzle]

Can't say nigger these days.

[MasterBlaster]

That one 'lil word sure screwed him royally!

[lumberjack]

...No need to beat someone to death, just prove your point is all.

I'm not good at simply proving a point with my fist.

The last fight I remember from 6th grade, I was 11 he was 17 or 18. He kept jumping on my back like a retard, told him if he did it again I was going to hit him. Granted he was a brick shy of a load, but after he jumped on my back again he was shy that brick and a few teeth.

I'll admit I did feel better though, I went to my next class with a refreshed mind and bleeding knuckles.:thumbup:

I perfer that conflict resolution is best kept on a verbal basis :)

[rumination]

I perfer that conflict resolution is best kept on a verbal basis :)



Very wise.

[OTGBOSTON]

Ha Carl man, you need to roll in the dirt a little more. I've always found fighting to be refreshing. .


Amen! A good donnybrook can really spice up a night out. I definately wouldn't pull a knife though, even if you win, you lose.

[Jonseredbred]

You don't pull them out, Just walk around with them showing so everyone knows your a bad ass mofo.

[cybergeek23851]

I usually have 2 on me at all times-

My Smith and Wesson Beater-
http://www.knivesplus.com/media/SW-CK2B.jpg

and my Leatherman

http://www.mytoolstore.com/leather/kick.jpg

[Paul B]

that smith and wesson looks kinda cool. is it spendy J?

[cybergeek23851]

I got one similar to it for little over $10.00 at a shop in Portsmouth VA.

[Paul B]

well heck, thats not bad at all!

[cybergeek23851]

I just needed something for cutting paper, opening boxes... you know dirty work. If I kill it in 6 months, I've worked it enough on receipt paper. :lol:

[Cobleskill]

Wenger swiss army standard issue here. Not the cheap-ass red plastic, it is aluminum sides. Blade, scredrivers, can and bottle openers, and a awl. Feel almost naked without it.

[Bodean]

I carry the kershaw at work, though not always.

My good luck superstition is that I always have to carry a lighter in my pocket when I climb.

Even if I got no smokes. Ha.

[Jamin Mayer]

The only knife I bring with me in my truck is this Spyderco (http://images.outdoorinteractive.net/mgen/510519_oi.jpg)

The reason I bought it was so I could clip it on my saddle when I climb. I then thought it might be a bad idea. I visualized the hole on the blade catching a twig and cutting my arse!:O So, I don't climb with it.:/:

[Al Smith]

My old man carried a lighter twenty years after he quit smoking .Like myself he always had a knife.

I hope nobody is missing the point,a knife is a tool .Sure you can use it for a weapon but so can you a screwdriver,ya know.

[Burnham]

I hope nobody is missing the point,a knife is a tool .Sure you can use it for a weapon but so can you a screwdriver,ya know.

Prezactically, Al.
:D

[Cobleskill]

I am recommending you guys try a scouting style wenger swiss army standard issue. I have carried this style for 30 years and not a day goes by when I don't use something other than the blade. I remember the first time I carried one on a commercial jet in the 70's and wondered how kosher that was to find out no probem untill 9-11. Now you can't carry a freakin bottle of water on!

[Paul B]

how bout a thousand dollar model? :O

The uber swiss army knife (http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=WR16999)

http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/wenger/images/16999.jpg

[JamesTX]

I'm going to ask my wife for a multi-tool for Valentine's.

[Cobleskill]

The problem with those multitool combos is the weight and you almost have to carry them in a belt pouch. The wenger standard issue is amazingly slim and trim. You hardly know it's in your pocket. I agree it is hard to get out of your pocket when wearing a saddle though.

[lumberjack]

I broke my Benchmade prying staples out of a wooden post of a barb wire fence.

Broke my Gerber gaining entry to a gate blocking a drive.

[arborworks1]

In all those tool boxes on your truck, you don't have a prybar?

[MasterBlaster]

Hahaha!

[sawinredneck]

I usually carry my leatherman:
http://www.leatherman.com/products/tools/retired-tools/charge-XTi/default.asp

Most of the time I carry this, it's a lot handier than you might think!!!!:
http://www.botachtactical.com/geeabpokn.html

But I ALWAYS have my Kershaw Leek in a pocket!!!

[lumberjack]

I was in my Jeep ;)

[arborworks1]

I was in my Jeep ;)

10-4

[pantheraba]

I broke my Benchmade prying staples out of a wooden post of a barb wire fence.

Broke my Gerber gaining entry to a gate blocking a drive.

Send them back for a free replacement knife. I have had my Benchmade replaced once already.