That Coos Bay felling cut again!

[Burnham]

During my day in the snow felling trees to widen the X-C ski trail I took out this little bowed over silver fir.

It was too small to bore the back cut, and was so heavily loaded up with snow that I knew I'd be unlikely to get a face cut in it without pinching my bar.

So I didn't put in my version of the Coos Bay, but rather followed the Mike Davis/Jerry Beranek method.

A third the diameter kerf on one side with the bar parallel with the lean, then the same on the other side. Then go hell for leather from the back side. You can bet your azz I commited the minimum amount of bar neccessary for the back cut, keeping as far away as I could.

I only got a couple-three inches into the back cut when she popped like a cap gun...launched forward several feet, but no barberchair.

It worked like a charm. Thanks, Jer.

A few pictures, not the best. First one is the tree itself, second I'm putting in the first side cut, third is the stump, taken from the back side.

[MasterBlaster]

:thumbup:

[gf beranek]

Boy, judging by the lean and all that snow I'd say that twig was under some tension!!! Brutal work conditions, Burnam. Too cold for me. Guess you're used to it.

Well, glad it worked out for you.

[squisher]

Great pic of the stump Burnham, thanks for sharing as usual. That's really helped me put this cut together in my head.

Ahh winter in the bush, for me wintertime brought some of the worst as well as the best working conditions. Heh no bugs!

[gf beranek]

No bugs sounds good

[Burnham]

Boy, judging by the lean and all that snow I'd say that twig was under some tension!!! Brutal work conditions, Burnam. Too cold for me. Guess you're used to it.

Well, glad it worked out for you.

You got it, Jerry. Huge compression on the lean side. It was LOUD when it popped.

I've worked outside in cold weather for nearly 30 years...too many, perhaps. My hands have gotten frost nipped enough times that now they are awfully suseptible to the cold. I'm used to wearing the right clothing and outers for working in that kind of weather, but it's very hard to manage for my hands any more. I ought to get a saw with heated handles.

[gf beranek]

It was a perfect candidate for it. Too small to back bore and attempting an undercut would have been a lesson in who's faster.... you pulling the saw out or the tree setting down.

I often wonder how the cold affects the wood. It never gets that cold here. Does the wood ever actually freeze? Is it more brittle when it's that cold?

Don't mean to derail here. Maybe I should ask by starting a new thread.

[MasterBlaster]

Burnham or anyone, have ya'll tried out these gloves? (http://www.180s.com/pages/catalog_view.aspx?g=5&y=2&i=32&c=1) You blow into them? They seem like a good idea to me.

[squisher]

Dang not to derail Burnham, but once you get heated handles there's no going back.:) My hands suffered lots in the bush, that's the weaklink for sure. I always strived to keep an extra set of gloves tucked up in my armpits or down my pants:O , that way you always have a warm pair if the hands reach condition critical.

Like I said some of the best but also some of the worst.

Next chance I get I'm gonna be trying this cut out. Thanks again for the pics. From the looks of what broke off that stump no doubt she must have been loud.

[Burnham]

It was a perfect candidate for it. Too small to back bore and attempting an undercut would have been a lesson in who's faster.... you pulling the saw out or the tree setting down.

I often wonder how the cold affects the wood. It never gets that cold here. Does the wood ever actually freeze? Is it more brittle when it's that cold?

Don't mean to derail here. Maybe I should ask by starting a new thread.

Jerry, I have heard that trees can freeze, but I don't really know. It doesn't seem likely that the moisture in a live tree could actually be completely ice...but I don't live in Siberia or central BC, so maybe???

For certain though, wood is more brittle when it is very cold. It doesn't hinge quite as well, and is more prone to splitting, ala barberchairing.


Burnham or anyone, have ya'll tried out these gloves? (http://www.180s.com/pages/catalog_view.aspx?g=5&y=2&i=32&c=1) You blow into them? They seem like a good idea to me.

Never seen them before...might be a good thing, spendy, but warm hands would be worth a pretty penny. I do wonder if introducing moisture (from your breath) inside your gloves might be counter-productive over the longer term.

[GASoline71]

Sweet job Burnham... I bet that sounded like a gun going off when it popped. Lots of weight on that baby due to the snow. :)

Gary

[JIML]

You know I first saw this cut here and thought, "hell ill never use that"...
Then I saw the picture of the tree all bowed over and got to thinking.

I worked an ice storm a year ago or so. We got called out to cut some stuff off the line. Probably 10-12 sasafrass or ash trees, skinny tall bean poles. 6-8" dbh that were bowed over onto a stacked 3 phase. Line was dead, so I thought I would just cut them and let them slide down and land parallel to the line. First one I was just going to put a little under cut in it, I got maybe a half inch in and was pinched. Smooth move slick haha. Got the 200 and just touched the back side, barber chaired big time. I ended up just cutting them and every one barber chaired violently!! Thinking back, if I had known this cut then I could have used it and it would have probably been alot safer!

[Burnham]

Sounds like that would have been a perfect situation for this felling cut, Jim.

[pantheraba]

Burnham,

Thanks a million for showing how you did it and how it worked. The stump picture does help. All very instructional.

Thanks, Gerry, for passing along this info to all of us.

[JIML]

Sounds like that would have been a perfect situation for this felling cut, Jim.

After I cut the first couple of them, I found that the safest place to stand while cutting them was pretty much in the path of where they were going to fall. They came down slow since they brushed the line but they would shoot back at me standing to the side or the back... so basically right next to them but in front kinda was the best spot to be.

[JamesTX]

Burnham or anyone, have ya'll tried out these gloves? (http://www.180s.com/pages/catalog_view.aspx?g=5&y=2&i=32&c=1) You blow into them? They seem like a good idea to me.


What about those chemical heat packs you can get at WalMart? The ones you shake and they react with the oxygen - I've used those in hunting and they work great. Just put one down your gloves.

[MasterBlaster]

Apples and oranges, James.

[Stumper]

Neat report Burnham.

Trees don't really freeze-that would rupture cell walls and wreak havoc on the system.They supercool. -The proper constituents in the sap for cold weather allow some species to tolerate temps far below zero without freezing.

[wiley_p]

So frost cracks in Spruce, Hemlock, Pine are a result of what then Dr. Stumper. Why don't plastic wedges work in the "non" frozen wood? Curious, I grew up in interior AK and it sure seems like wood can do something pretty damn close to freezing if not outright textbook froze.:P

[stig]

Back when I first started logging in Denmark, before global warming started, we had some pretty severe winters around here. Sometimes at work, when the saws weren't making noise, one would hear a sound like a rifle being fired. That would be an ashtree splitting from the cold.
Today, with winters here being mostly muddy, one never hears that sound, but we can still see the overgrown frost-splits when we fall old ashtrees.
Felling hardwoods like beech and ash in extreme cold, one has to be really gentle when laying them out, or they'll splinter to tothpicks. No good ,when you're being paid by the amount of logs you cut.

[pantheraba]

Felling hardwoods like beech and ash in extreme cold, one has to be really gentle when laying them out, or they'll splinter to tothpicks. No good ,when you're being paid by the amount of logs you cut.

That is an interesting thought...I'm glad it does not get that cold here in Georgia.

Welcome to the TreeHouse, Stig.

[gf beranek]

Thanks for the insight, Stig. I often wonder how the cold affects the tree, wood and all. I really glad it doesn't get that cold here.

Oh, you should be getting a parcel very soon.

[fallguy1960]

Four years ago I was in Northern Minnesota for the deer hunting opener the temp got do to 15 below that morning. Before that the coldest temps had been about 10*F. That morning the aspen trees were poping till about 8:00 after the sun started to warm them a little. That is why tell old timers called these tree's Popple.

[Jamin Mayer]

Back when I first started logging in Denmark, before global warming started,

Ha:lol: You must be real old.:what: (http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html)

Click on confused face above.

[Jamin Mayer]

This may be a stupid question, but here it goes: Do any loggers have the need to carry a small trim saw? If I come into a small diameter leaning tree, I find that a mid-sized saw (and bar) are too fat to plunge. So, I just use my MS200T. I can't tell from the photo. Would it have been doable with a MS200T? Just curious.

Can someone make a picture drawing of the technique you're describing. I can't visualize it.:cry:

[Jamin Mayer]

Sorry guys. Be patient with me. I wanna learn this. Is this what was done? See attachment.

[Jamin Mayer]

Hmm...Where is it?

[sotc]

looks to me like what you have marked as a notch is the back cut. hes displaying the non face cut method so the cambium/sapwood will tear as a hinge of sorts. i think he cut either side first and planned to back cut as fast as possible but it popped an inch and a half into the back cut. am i right?

[GASoline71]

Willie is right. That is the back cut. There is no face cut with this use of the Coos Bay cut. Not many loggers here have a use for a tophandle, unless they are a climber of course. :)

...it worked as designed willie... it popped so early because of the heavy snow load on the tree... however, I'm sure that any tree leaning a lot will pop just like that. With or without the snow load.

Gary

[stig]

Ha:lol: You must be real old.:what: (http://mysite.verizon.net/mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html)

Click on confused face above.

Yep, practically ancient!
I meant, of course, the current rise of global temperature during the last decade or so.
The Earth seems to constantly be going through periods of minor temperature changes.
Pollen analyses show that 3000 years ago, the temperatures around here (Denmark) were a lot higher than now, almost mediterranean. White fir (Abies Alba) was common back then, but disappeared later, when it got colder.
Now it seems like we are in for a period of warmer weather again. This was the global warming I referred to.
The white fir is back too. It was reintroduced into the forests here in 1763 by a German forrester, Johan Jacob Von Langen, who started the danes on sustainable yield logging practises.

Did I just derail this thread, or what?

[pantheraba]

Did I just derail this thread, or what?

Heck, nawwww...you had to answer (the other) Gary's question...and you segued into a brief discussion of ancient tree species of Denmar. I'm going to slide into a brief sideline related to your history lesson.

I am reading Bernard Cornwell's stories about the Danes (Vikings) of the mid 800's, a time when the Danes almost conquered England...they are some excellent stories of war, sailing, politics, religion, life and love...masterfully done.

You Vikings were (are?) dangerous folk.

OK, end of my derail. :)

[Paul B]

maritime history (http://www.sevenoceans.com/MaritimeDiscovery/VikingDiscovery.htm)and they were here (american continent) before the fellow that gets all the glory, Columbus...

[Jamin Mayer]

looks to me like what you have marked as a notch is the back cut. hes displaying the non face cut method so the cambium/sapwood will tear as a hinge of sorts. i think he cut either side first and planned to back cut as fast as possible but it popped an inch and a half into the back cut. am i right?

Thanks Willie. Now I get it.;)

[Burnham]

Thanks to Willie and Gary for filling in for me while I was away. Y'all are of course correct.

It was more like about 3 inches in...the tree was 12 or 13 inches in diameter at that point, which was about 6 feet off the ground.

This tree was even more heavily stressed (tension on the back side of the lean, compression on the front of lean side) than a normal leaner with a straight stem, or a tree that had grown with a natural lean would be...it was arched over in a bow shape due to the snow load.

I felt pretty happy to get as far into it as I did, and glad that it didn't barberchair even with the advantage of using the Coos Bay cut.

[vl2007]

And i just keep on learning. Huricanes produce the same type lean thanks.

[Newfie]

The great Murphy is at it again. At least he gave Gerry credit.:D

http://arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=81863

[MasterBlaster]

I like how the first two responders quote his entire post. Why do people do that silly shit? Just to have fun scrolling?

[Newfie]

I like how the first two responders quote his entire post. Why do people do that silly shit? Just to have fun scrolling?

Cuz they stupid?

[Al Smith]

I don't have a clue how a pine /fir acts in cold weather but a hickory cracks like rifle shot when it's real cold .

I suppose it can freeze in the log although I've never seen it .Oak will freeze like an ice berg in the log .About like cutting granite ,an exercise in futility .

[Burnham]

Bump, following Skwerl's lead on the other Coos Bay thread.

[Tree Reb]

Thanks Burnham, good threads. That's finally got me straight on it, I've heard and seen things about it but never quite understood.

I don't get to fell trees in snow but we do get some wild storms sometimes, could come in handy.8)

[woodworkingboy]

Can someone please explain what exactly it is about the Coos Bay cut that helps to prevent barberchair? The part that would would normally begin the barberchair to happen when it is freed up by cutting, is still attached to the tree and can fold and break? With the sides cut away, it seems like you would have even more tension on the central post when the tree does start to go, and all hell would happen. I believe it works, not questioning that, just can't get my mind around what is happening. :|:

Thanks.

[rskybiz]

Jay in my mind it is the first two cuts that ward off the barberchair, by cutting the sides this isolates the center and the ability for the barberchair to split to the sides. The cuts make holding wood in the butt. Encaplulates it if this makes sense.

[gf beranek]

One thing is sure about it. If you don't cut the sides enough it will barber chair. I've always kind of associated with how you would cut a side leaner to swing it, but you don't open the face. And when swinging a side leaner when the upper corner fails you lose the tree to its lean. Can't say I have ever seen a side leaner barber chair when trying to swing it and the corner fails.

Could be something there in the origins of how the cut gained merit and use on its own.

[Burnham]

I don't really think so, Rskybiz.

I think the reason the Coos Bay helps avoid a barberchair is simply that you have reduced the amount of wood fibre that has to be severed for the tree to commit to the lean. This allows you to make that release cut fast, keeping ahead of the tendency to split. If you putz around with a dull chain and a poorly running saw, the CB will 'chair on you just as mightily as a conventional felling cut would.

We all know that on less severe headleaners, you have to be aggressive in the back cut, having put in a conventional face, to avoid the barberchair...the Coos Bay just allows you to do this even more quickly, for cases of more extreme head lean.

[rskybiz]

See it and conceed that would be more logical. Still leaves me to wonder the holding benefits having the sides cut in, I can't imagine there would be no benefit.

[stig]

On the type of trees I work on, the sapwood is a lot stringier than the heartwood and more flexible.
So cutting away the sapwood and leaving mainly heartwood as done in the Coos bay, will make sure that the holding wood breaks easily, thus avoiding the barberchair.

[woodworkingboy]

Just thought I post some pics of an ugly barberchair that I experienced during my younger and less informed days.... Note the stressed out bamboo in the back, those can really get you too.

[CurSedVoyce]

:\:

[Skwerl]

Saved you some splitting time. :D

[CurSedVoyce]

Remember my nose wound.. Bamboo could easily do that sprung like that.

[Bodean]

Good Lord, Kamikaze Hari Kari Tree!!

I love your pictures from Nipponlandia.

[stig]

Had a hazard tree to take down today.
A large beech, totally filled with conkers, I am amazed that it was still standing.
The pressure side of the trunk had started to collapse, making the whole tree curve towards the lean. You can see the splits in the bark, where the tree has settled down .
It had originally been leaning about 10 degrees, now it was more like 15.
There was no sound wood to put a face into, or borecut, so i decided on a Coos bay.

Since there was a big risk of the tree setting down as I cut and pinching the saw, I used the beaver version of Coos Bay.
It doesn't show in the pictures, but I sniped the left sidecut in order to make room for the saw( short bar you know!)

Instead of cutting from the back, I bored part of the middle out, since I could see that the wood was sound, after cutting into the sides.

Then I tripped it from behind and ran like a rabbit:D

Everything went to plan, and I felt pretty good about myself afterwards, that was one of the nastier trees in a while.

A smarter guy would probably have wrapped a chain around it just to make sure.





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[FJR]

That looks hairy, nice job Stig. :)

[Skwerl]

Looks like a contender for the 'ugly stump' thread! :P

[CurSedVoyce]

Dang ugly. Hairy scary.. Right man for the job though... Nice work getting it down :thumbup:

[sotc]

Finally, a stump at proper height!! Looked like you coulda climbed the shelf fungus like a ladder

[sotc]

Proper height is somewhere between Murphy's and Stig's :lol:

[Skwerl]

Proper height is somewhere between Murphy's and Stig's :lol:

You just have a big old case of the smartass today, dontcha? :lol:

[sotc]

Every once in a great while I get overwhelmed and it escapes;)

[CurSedVoyce]

:lol:
The kind of thought that has to come out with the outside voice eh?

:lol: