Tieing in While Blocking Down

[brendonv]

I'm on a role here.

In the friction saver thread, a few mentioned using them while they block down wood. Personally I have just been using my climb line cinched around the spar but....if hurt, it would be hell getting down.

What are some of the best ways to attach yourself to the spar, and being able to get down still.

I was thinking a running bowline with a munter on a biner with the friction hitch as a backup somehow.

Later,

B

[gf beranek]

I'm with you on that one. I've often thought about what a bitch it would be since there's usually not a stub or crotch on a bare pole to hold the climbline in place.

I suppose a rope guide would probably be the best for it. Hey?

[Burnham]

I'm on a role here.

In the friction saver thread, a few mentioned using them while they block down wood. Personally I have just been using my climb line cinched around the spar but....if hurt, it would be hell getting down.

What are some of the best ways to attach yourself to the spar, and being able to get down still.

I was thinking a running bowline with a munter on a biner with the friction hitch as a backup somehow.

Later,

B

I like this arrangement, the adjustable false crotch, aka ring and ring friction saver. You can set it up with your standard DdRT setup, of course. Works fine on a clear bole, so long as you keep it at least lightly loaded

Dang, can't get my pic to upload...I'll try again later.

[Burnham]

Let's see...nope, still getting "database error" when I try to upload an attachment to my post.

[MasterBlaster]

Let's see...

Hey, I can't either. Something must be up/down.

[Blinky]

I cinch my lifeline onto the spar with a biner. From there it goes to my friction knot. From there it goes to a figure 8 clipped to my right D-ring. That gives me a backed up, ready to rock, emergency descent method. That's usually just for tops and problematic blocks. I skip the figure 8 when I'm pushing lots of regular sized blocks because moving the setup down is a hassle.

I used to use a false crotch when I wore a Master Classic saddle but with my BF II bridge I can't get close enough that way. Now I only use the FC to descend from the spar.

[squisher]

I do the same as what Brendon describes when blocking down and so Chip you're saying you do the same thing as well but just back it up /set-up with a fig 8 in place if need be if I'm understanding correctly? I'd be real interested in hearing what other people do or have come up with.




I cinch my lifeline onto the spar with a biner. From there it goes to my friction knot. From there it goes to a figure 8 clipped to my right D-ring.

[Wagnaw]

I almost always tie a running bowline when piecing down a spar, and If I am at all wondering, I'll tie a munter above my VT. The munter takes the weight and the VT controls the speed of decent. The problem is that the Munter-VT combo is really only good for safety sake as a back up in case you need an emergency decent.

Do any of you tie a running bowline and cinch it to one side when working on leaning spars? That's my favorite part of that set up cause it allows you to lean out to the side on a leaner and cut the face cut. The running bowline keeps you from swinging around to the underside of the tree.

[Hobby Climber]

This is my setup of choice. Very simple & effective!

I climb to my work position and install a 2nd tie-in. From there, I can climb higher or lower to another position very easily!

If I have to get down fast for what ever reason, I just un-clip the 2nd tie-in, grab the line below the Fig.8 and with other hand release tension on the Blake's and down I go.

Best of all, if you get in trouble on the way down and you loose grip of the lower line...you have the Blake's as a back up!

And there ya have it, ;) .


HC

[MasterBlaster]

OK, call me stoopid. I don't understand the need for the "escape" line. Give me a scenario where having that is better than just stepping down the tree on your lanyard and spurs. A massive leg cut, maybe? Even then I think I would be able to get my lame ass down off the spar. Hell, I might even do like those pole racers and do a controlled fall to the ground.
Am I insane in the membrane, orrrr whut?

[sotc]

cut arm or face?

[Blinky]

Helldiving Bluejays

[Hobby Climber]

OK, call me stoopid. I don't understand the need for the "escape" line. Give me a scenario where having that is better than just stepping down the tree on your lanyard and spurs. A massive leg cut, maybe? Even then I think I would be able to get my lame ass down off the spar. Hell, I might even do like those pole racers and do a controlled fall to the ground.
Am I insane in the membrane, orrrr whut?
------------------------------



Ah Butch... Friggin BEE's!!!!!!!!!:\:

HC

[squisher]

I would think because you want to be tied in twice anyways, that the second tie in may as well serve a double pupose of giving you a peel out route as long as it isn't ridiculously gear/labor intensive.

[MasterBlaster]

Bees? On a spar? In order for it to be a spar means I've already climbed up once, and now I am blocking it down/descending.

Why wouldn't I have seen the bees upon ascension?


I would think because you want to be tied in twice anyways,

That's not what we're talking about.

[squisher]

I would think because you want to be tied in twice anyways, that the second tie in may as well serve a double pupose of giving you a peel out route as long as it isn't ridiculously gear/labor intensive.

Isn't this what you were referring to as being set-up as a escape route vs just being a 2nd tie in point that can't be used for emergency descent without some modification or backing up?

[wiley_p]

I've always tied in with a single line rappel setup. My thought being if I get slammed, etc All i need to do is undo my flipline and a groundman can control my descent with tension/slack. If its a leaner, depending on species i will tie a constrictor hitch, otherwise I just take a wrap and choke it with a biner. I use a Munter, backed up by my VT. Works great I can weight the hitch and move around with that tie-in. When working down a dead fir a couple years back I took WAY to big of a log 16"x24' Brian did as good a job as he could roping it down, but it still knocked the shit out of me Cracked ribs, busted nose, etc. I could have gotten down on my own but it would have been tough. He had me on the ground inside of 30 seconds.:thumbup:

[Skwerl]

I'm gonna have to agree with Butch on this one. All the extra rigging and planning sounds good on paper, but after 20 years of climbing you start to figure out what really works in real life and what is just unneccessary fear. Two rules on chunking down a spar- Don't cut your rope and don't hurt yourself.

And since we're on the topic, I'll say that my worst tree injury ever occurred while blocking down a spar. I had topped out a pine tree for removal in the middle of an empty lot. I had power lines across the front of the lot so I needed to get it down to 25'-30' before I could flop the spar. So I was cutting off 6'-8' chunks and got it down about 30' or so. The ground guy said it was short enough but I thought I needed one more piece. I misjudged which way it was leaning, I was too far below my cut and I didn't use a notch. I made the cut with one hand about head high and reached up with my other hand to push the log. It was heavier than I thought and I accidentally cut all the way through, then I pushed the bottom out and the top of the log came back on me. The log landed on my thumb on top of the spar and splattered my thumb open.

I still managed to walk my way down the spar and got on the ground before throwing up and almost passing out. They got me to the hospital and it took 15 stitches to piece together what was left of my thumb. It still works but I don't have any feeling in the tip any more.

[Stumper]

Since discovering the adjustable ring and ring friction saver I use it habitually when blocking down a spar. It is easily manipulated ( not as fast as a simple slacked loop of climbing line but it ain't hard) and it is SECURE.

[Monkeypuzzle]

I think Brian and Butch have the years behind them from doing production removals to understand what is going to work and what aint. Period.

Use a Friction Saver Prusik while a spar is busting from a bad notch or back cut and you will still have problems once the chaos is over. Do you carry a cell phone into the tree with you? Are you dipping Cope? What's the distraction.

Pay attention to what's at hand and go on to the next job. If you got lots of time to play around and fiddle with STUFF great. Profit margin?????Time is $$$$.Are you on the Man's time?

How many folks do you see complaining at the XGames. "Oh no, that young man should not do the back flip on that bike." "Oh my God, that is just too darn dangerous." Never gonna happen. Shit happens, keep your eye on the ball.

Show me the difference. It's a thrill a miute.:O

[Ax-Man]

What if someone had to come up and get you down Butch??? Your a big guy it would be much easier to get you down on an escape line that it would to try and unclip you and then have to try and clip you onto a rescuer's harness.

I have never done an actual rescue from a tree except in those competition climbs for the arborist chapters. Even though the event uses mock victims or rescue dummies and they are suspended up in the tree they are still heavy to move around to position them for lowering to the ground . It is not as easy as it looks if your watching the event from the ground. An actual unconscience person would be plain dead weight. Without some kind of lowering line it would be extremely hard and darn near impossible if the rescuer was smaller and weighted less than the injured person to get them down to the ground.

A second tie in for me for blocking down is to cinch the biner around the spar to my climbing line with a VT to descend on if I need to get down fast. If I'm actually going to descend off a spar then I'll use some kind of friction saver.

[stehansen]

I've come down on the blakes around the climbing line which was choked around the spar. You had to pull pretty hard on the knot to get it to move but it worked.

[TheTreeSpyder]

i lanyard high for stability; and lower for lifeline; with sling/krab set as a stop to reeve lifeline thru. If rigging down off same spar; then lifeline must be protected place. If not it must go high/over block too. Sometimes i have a 3rd tie in of sling/krab set over block to; directly to front D's for comfort/stability and to be able to convert over to lifeline top if i need to descend. A few times i've even placed krab from side of block's sling to lifeline in case of emergency descent(after reading about escape concerns/having them on my mind); but that could get you into trouble too..

Larry, just cuz you have to rescue someone; i don't think you should call'em a dummy.

[brendonv]

Can I get a pic of how you guys are incorporating a munter and VT? I'm not seeing it in my head...

[lumberjack]

Your VT first, then the tail of the line into a munter, or an eight.

If I'm blocking down I use my climbing line choked around the stem using the biner and my VT to carry my weight.

It'll work for getting out of the tree.

If I'm popping the top and coming straight down I use the RG and my traditional setup.

[brendonv]

Your VT first, then the tail of the line into a munter, or an eight..


All attatched to the same spot on your saddle, like-VT in front, then the Munter behind it?

I think I got it.

[lumberjack]

Nay, the munter would be on a leg strap or something lower than the bridge so it would take the weight.

It is possible, I figure, to mount it all together, but it's certainly not how I'd do it.

[Blinky]

I put it on my right side D-ring.

[MasterBlaster]

What if someone had to come up and get you down Butch??? Your a big guy it would be much easier to get you down on an escape line that it would to try and unclip you and then have to try and clip you onto a rescuer's harness.


Then THEY would rig the escape line. Either off my climbing rope or their climbing rope, and use a knife to cut me away.

[wiley_p]

Butch, I am suprised. Then you are relying on THEM to rescue you. An already elevated situation has now had a "resucuer" added in. Funny when the heartrate gets above 120 simple motor skills go out the window. Why would you be reluctant to have another measure of self rescue at Your disposal. Remember, THEY is usually someone who you work with, they may even like you, are you going to rely on the fact that they can stay calm while they are climbing to you as fast as they can? While they are ascending through the curtain of blood that could be pouring out of your body, do trust completely that they will be able to focus on the task at hand while you are groaning in agony? There is nothing wrong with having a plan or two, nor is there anything wrong with training.

[lumberjack]

I'm not sure about for Butch, but for myself there isn't anyone I've met within 3 hours of here I'd remotely be comfortable with to take a knife anywhere near my lines unless I was guiding Daniel in what to do.

I'd trust Gary (Panther) but by then I'd be pushing daisies.

If a lift could get to me then I would be more comfortable with someone else rescuing me.

[MasterBlaster]

Butch, I am suprised. Then you are relying on THEM to rescue you. An already elevated situation has now had a "resucuer" added in. Funny when the heartrate gets above 120 simple motor skills go out the window. Why would you be reluctant to have another measure of self rescue at Your disposal. Remember, THEY is usually someone who you work with, they may even like you, are you going to rely on the fact that they can stay calm while they are climbing to you as fast as they can? While they are ascending through the curtain of blood that could be pouring out of your body, do trust completely that they will be able to focus on the task at hand while you are groaning in agony? There is nothing wrong with having a plan or two, nor is there anything wrong with training.

I was assuming I was unconcious. :drink:

[treetx]

Great, the mental mastubation that is AR.

In reality, for most of us, when we go into that tree, we are alone. There is no 2nd climber and if that 2nd climber was good enough to AR, they would be on the dang spar....

Plan for success, not failure. Use your excellent judgement so you don't have to use your excellent climbing skills.

I love the RG for this application but all to often a waste imo. Just choke your climbing line around the spar and get those pieces to the ground.

[brendonv]

Good thread.

I threw a line over my balcony today :D , and tried descending single line on my VT. It seems it's do-able, and doesn't require any gizmo's which is good.

I guess I'll just choke it off with a running bowline and go to town.

[Burnham]

Good thread.

I threw a line over my balcony today :D , and tried descending single line on my VT. It seems it's do-able, and doesn't require any gizmo's which is good.

I guess I'll just choke it off with a running bowline and go to town.

Lots of people have tried lots of friction hitches on single line, Brendon. I think you'll find one of two things happens pretty quickly...either the hitch binds up solid, or it begins to run free...it self-lubricates as it softens and melts. I have seen both happen...the latter was particularly scary:O .

Neither is good, of course.

If you are convinced that you need bail-out capability, better to go with the 8, backed up by a friction hitch binered to the leg strap on your brake hand side. You can rappel with one hand by gripping the hitch in your hand and simultaneously applying brakeing to the 8 and keeping the hitch moving. If you let go, the hitch applies plenty of brake to the 8 to stop you, but is easy to get going again.

[Bounce]

I always figured the reason to have a 2nd tie-in (whether on a spar or not) is in case you cut your first. In my job here at Wesspur, I've talked to dozens of guys who've cut their flipline, many of whom have been doing this 20+ years. It always happens the same way: there's a little stub on the opposite side of the trunk they didn't see which was holding the flipline up into the path of the chain. Usually it's the end of a long day, they're tired, they're running the big saw with dogs in deep and hauling back on the handle as hard as they can to get the job done asap. They notice a few skips if it was a steel core flipline but keep going anyway. If you're going to have a back up tie in, you can choose from either a climbing line or another flipline. Why not choose the one that lets you rappell to the ground if you have to? Also, most of us are already carrying a climbing line, so a 2nd flipline is just unneccesary weight.

I usually use a friction saver w/ prusik as my secondary tie-in on a spar because it means I can rappell down the spar, which is WAY faster than spur climbing down. While this hasn't yet saved my life, it sure does save a lot of time.

[Bounce]

I cinch my lifeline onto the spar with a biner.

I'm sure most everybody knows this, but carabiners aren't intended to be loaded this way. When you apply side pressure to the gate like that, there is a distinct possibility it could break if it got shock loaded (like when a flipline gets cut and this is what catches you). Swap it out for a clevis or a shackle though and this is a good method. Of course, a simple running bowline here instead eliminates the need for any hardware at all.

[squisher]

Yah that is what I do(with the biner) and am uncomfortable with for the reasons you mentioned. But I generally unclip my 2nd TIP when moving down the spar for the next chunk, and so being lazy this has become a bad technique I'm using. I have a adjustable FC it just seems cumbersome to set-up and then either work it down or remove it and set it up again for the next chunk. Probably lack of practice/experience is making it seem this way. And heh in my defense I've come along ways from never having a 2nd tie in or even a climbline so I'm trying.

Those of you who are setting up your systems so you can be lowered from the ground if need be just by unattatching your lanyard, could you explain that a little more, I'm sorry but I've had a hard time following how that would work while chunking down a spar. Do you just have your line anchored at the base of the tree with some type of friction device and are using your 2nd TIP as a SRT set-up, which you move down the tree with you as you go? So you run it through some type of a false crotch and then to your harness?

Great info guys even though I'm sure some of you are thinking this topic has been beat to death, I thank-you Brendon for starting this thread and bringing this topic up again.

Sorry if some of this stuff is basic to you guys, just trying to learn to improve my productivity and safety.

[Bounce]

Yah that is what I do(with the biner) and am uncomfortable with for the reasons you mentioned. But I generally unclip my 2nd TIP when moving down the spar for the next chunk, and so being lazy this has become a bad technique I'm using.

I have always thought it was easier to move a friction saver or running bowline down a spar than a line choked with a biner. I've tried the biner method and had nothing but problems with the biner getting snagged on rough bark and tiny little stubs or else getting way too loose and falling too far down. A friction saver is easy to lower because they're stiff and rigid just like a flipline (at least the Buckingham ones are). The running bowline is not as easy, but still easier than with a biner because you can just loosen it and shake it till it's where you want it.

[TheTreeSpyder]

When loading a krab; i think you should imagine it as an open hook; and only load inline down the back spine. The gate looks like similar strength metal (except wire gates); but their hinges are usually steel pins 1/10th or so the gauge; and then further more pulled perpendicularly/not inline/at leveraged angle. This Achilles Heel of the krab; then dictates the strength of this side of the 'chain' of events of strength. A threaded quick link has 2x the strength at the same size; becasue it can use both legs of support; whereas a hook or krab only has 1 real one. A string or wire across the mouth of a hook is called 'mousing' and can give more security and perhaps some strength against load shifting away from spine or towards cross loading. So i think of a krab as an open hook with fancy mousing.

A friction hitch down a single line(SRT) is different several ways than down a DdRT line. There is 2x the loading (but more elasticity) on the SRT system than DdRT with same load. But more than that; the dual line (one leg adjustable, one terminated of DdRT allows the loading to shift from half on the adjustable/dynamic slide side/leg to about all on the terminated/static leg. This then frees up the hitch to slide much more smoothly, under less loading frictions etc. The overhead friction of the support helping a lot too IMLHO.

Thus, 125# climber will not slide down at all/as smooth/ as safely on an SRT as a 300# climber will ride DdRT down. Even though it appears that the 300#'er has more loading (150#) on each leg than the 125# on the single leg of SRT.

[wiley_p]

This is a bit of a sidetrack, anyway, when a guy is on rappel you are moving down a line that is anchored at the top. When we use Drt and descend we are "lowering" the line is fixed to a belay at our saddle and moving thru the anchor overhead. Big difference. Have you heard anyone while working the hole on a rigging job talk about rappelling big wood down?

[Hobby Climber]

Once in position, I'll use a flip line as a positioning lanyard while cutting.

On the way down, I'll release pressure on the friction hitch and use the fig#8 as shown in the pic below. If something were to happen on the way down, I still have the FH (Blake's) as a backup to stop me.

This is also a great method while working on the way down! Less ware on the rope, easy to install.


HC

[Burnham]

I like this arrangement, the adjustable false crotch, aka ring and ring friction saver. You can set it up with your standard DdRT setup, of course. Works fine on a clear bole, so long as you keep it at least lightly loaded

Dang, can't get my pic to upload...I'll try again later.

OK, now that we can post pics, here it is.

[top hopper]

Heres a link to a recent article written by "Hollywood" aka TLHamel at TB.

http://www.msa-live.org/docs/Fall%2007.pdf

[Hobby Climber]

Hey Mr. Burnham,

I kinda like that Fig.8 in your last pic. ...what is it called and where did you get it???

Please tell.

HC

[Burnham]

It's called a RQ3 Q-8, by Suretyman. It is so far superior to a standard rescue 8 w/ ears as to make the old style obsolete, imo.

Variable amount of friction available, on the fly without re-rigging, complete control of lock/unlock function with no loss of position on the rope at all.

http://www.msafire.com/catalog/product1238.html

[MasterBlaster]

That's a cool site, nice videos.

[Burnham]

You can also get the RQ3 from Rescue Source.

http://www.rescuesource.com/

[MasterBlaster]

Beranek had to show me how to put this on, (http://media.msanet.com/na/usa/fallprotection/fallprotectionvideos/individualpages/donningPullover.html) I couldn't cypher it!

[fallguy1960]

I see you bought the large size whats the advantage of that over the next size smaller?

[Burnham]

I see you bought the large size whats the advantage of that over the next size smaller?

Nothing of major significance...in fact, at the time I got mine several years ago (about 2000) there was only the larger rescue size being made.

Probably the main advantage for me is that I frequently rappel on a doubled rope and that fits, runs, and locks in the large RQ3 much better than the smaller one. The ears are too small to carry the doubled rope on the smaller one.

If you only use it on a single line, the smaller one should be perfectly acceptable, even better since it would be less bulk to carry.

Edit: I see that the smaller unit does not meet the minimum breaking strength to satisfy ANSI or the Forest Service life support equipment standard. That's a shame. 13 kN is mighty low. I retract my statement above about there being "nothing of major significance".

[Frans]

One point I have about the RQ3.

When attaching a figure eight, you have to take the figure eight off the rope to feed the rope properly.
Once when doing this my hands were so tired and stiff that I dropped it.

With the RQ3, it seems like you can feed the bight of the rope through the big hole and then flip it around the ears. As long as you are backed up, you could then descend safely.

What do you think about that?

[Burnham]

No way would I try that, Frans. It would be too easy to loose the wrap on the ears...then you are in freefall (that is if you are rappeling on the 8 exclusively, rather than as a brake added to your friction hitch climbing/descending system).

To avoid the fumblies when rigging an 8, clip it to your harness with a biner through the big hole...you can rig it on the rope, then reattach it properly.

Edit: I see you did specify being backed up, Frans. I suppose it would work, but I would be uncomfortable doing so.

In addition, you'd loose the advantages the RQ3 offers.

[Koa Man]

I have cut down a couple hundred spars [lots of palms included]. I never used a quick descent setup, other than my climbing line set below my lanyard. I ALWAYS make sure the laynard is below where I am cutting. If I cannot reach around and feel where it is, I place my hand at the cut level and ask the ground man if the laynard is below my hand and by how much. My ground men are also climbers.

[Frans]

Burnham I like you solution. Funny I have never tried to first attach the figure 8 through the big hole...
Thanks for the tip.

Wesley, having your groundie check the level of your flip line before making that cut is essential.

I have put jobs off if I dont have a good groundie working that day...

[Ax-Man]

I am not a big fan of the figure eight myself, but that is beside the point.

Can you really get down a tree that much faster using an eight verses a hitch?? I am problay missing something here. I just don't see the advantage to using one to desend from a spar.

[Tom_Scheller]

Can you really get down a tree that much faster using an eight verses a hitch?? I am problay missing something here. I just don't see the advantage to using one to desend from a spar.

I use an Icicle Hitch (http://www.mytreelessons.com/user/Icicle-Notes-a.JPG) and it will lock solid on a single line. Without an 8 I'd have to walk down on my spikes, which is certainly practical and easier if I'm blocking smallish chunks.

TS

[Ax-Man]

Most hitches will lock down on a single line. A vt won't, at least for me it doesn't, but it not as fluid and definately more grabby on a single compared to a DbRT. The older hitches like the Blakes or the Tautline might be a better choice for a single line decent. I dunno. I used to use a Blakes as second tie hitch before I went VT. It has been so long ago I really can't remember how that hitch reacted on a singleline. I will have to give a retest some time.

We have discussed many techniques in this thread. These are just my thoughts.

Experience and many years of cutting down spars goes a long way toward being safe while chunking down a spar. Knowing what your doing and how your going to do it and keeping your mind focused on the cutting is probaly better than any gear set-up. I know this ground has been covered earlier in the thread and I do agree with it.

The technique of choking the biner around the spar will probaly suffice for most average everday type removals where a 16 to 20 in. saw will most likely get the spar down to a safe manageable piece to be felled. The second tie in for this type of removal serves more for fall protection in case you slip or your spurs kick out while moving around on the spar. Smaller saws are much easier to manuver and control so your chances of getting cut with a smaller saw aren't as great as they would be using a bigger one.

If the level of difficulty increases when doing a removal such as using a bigger saw in the 24 to 36 in range to cut bigger chunks or blocking wood down to avoid obsticles a line has been crossed to me. When you have to go this route to get a tree down to a safe level so it can be felled a different method for the second tie should be employed as the risk from getting hurt also increases. The simple choke the biner with a single hitch just might not not be enough it if an emergency desent is needed. An alternate method like the ones shown and discussed might make a difference between getting down quickly and easily compared to being stuck and bleeding on a spar.

The two comments that really stuck in my mind in this thread were the ones made by TreeTX and Wiley about the absence of a second climber on the job to do a rescue and the ability of the groundie to lower the climber down to the ground. Having a lowering system that the groundie can use makes sense if you doing a big potentially dangerious removal. The ground guy could probaly get you down faster and easier than you could on your own if you got banged up pretty good from a cut that has gone wrong.

I am sure we have all seen the vid of that Aussie dude who got slammed pretty good while roping that Pine top back onto itself. I am sure he would have benifitted from a lowering system that the goundie could have employed to get him down. He didn't look like he was in any shape to get himself down.

[Burnham]

If the climber is copesetic enough to release his lanyard, a groundie can lower an injured climber whose second tie in is an 8 on either a choked single line or on a doubled line through the adjustable friction saver. It take very little effort to control the brakeing function by administering downward pressure on the end of the rope(s) at ground level.

Just a thought.

[brendonv]

Cool thread.

Funny some of you mention another climber on the job to help rescue.

Where do ya'll find a climber that'll drag brush?:D

[lumberjack]

Certainly not in CT from what I've seen. Buncha lazy gits up there.

[brendonv]

:/:

[lumberjack]

I did see some decent climbers while I was there though, some that would drag brush, but sadly all had flown in for the Trade show.

[Ax-Man]

If the climber is copesetic enough to release his lanyard, a groundie can lower an injured climber whose second tie in is an 8 on either a choked single line or on a doubled line through the adjustable friction saver. It take very little effort to control the brakeing function by administering downward pressure on the end of the rope(s) at ground level.

Just a thought.

Good point Burnham

[Koa Man]

A climber who doesn't want to drag brush would not be working for me. If I am the boss and can climb and drag brush, then my employee better damn be willing to do what I do. The only time I DO NOT expect a climber to do ground work is I hire a contract climber. But in that case, all I am hiring him for is to get the tree on the ground safely and without breaking stuff, then he can go home. We call that "uku pau" in Hawaiian. You get the agreed upon price for the agreed upon work no matter how quickly you get the job done.

[squisher]

Ax-man excellent post, couldn't agree more at a certain size/point the stakes increase and that needs to be accounted for.

One thing I've wondered about is if you were needing to decend on a traditional hitch used in a SRT instead of Dbrt, what do you guys out there think about the heat/friction created vs the length of decent? Safe or deadly? In this day and age, does it depend on the types of ropes/hitch material used? Just a thought.

[MasterBlaster]

"uku pau" is my middle name! :beer:

[Mangoes]

Why don't hitches work well for SRT?

In a DdRT system the hitch bears only 50% of the load. And 2x the amount of rope needed passes through the hitch. In SRT the hitch must bear 100% of the load, which they do poorly at best. And 1x the amount of rope needed has to pass through the hitch, meaning when you start to go fast you go really fast.

All of the sytems have their pros and cons, our policy..... on a spar? Must have an escape route (we all do when felling). The escape must be operable with one hand. Which shouldn't be an issue because it is physically impossible to cut your left arm/hand with a chainsaw if it is in the 'drivers seat'.

[Burnham]

Ax-man excellent post, couldn't agree more at a certain size/point the stakes increase and that needs to be accounted for.

One thing I've wondered about is if you were needing to decend on a traditional hitch used in a SRT instead of Dbrt, what do you guys out there think about the heat/friction created vs the length of decent? Safe or deadly? In this day and age, does it depend on the types of ropes/hitch material used? Just a thought.


Why don't hitches work well for SRT?

In a DdRT system the hitch bears only 50% of the load. And 2x the amount of rope needed passes through the hitch. In SRT the hitch must bear 100% of the load, which they do poorly at best. And 1x the amount of rope needed has to pass through the hitch, meaning when you start to go fast you go really fast.

All of the sytems have their pros and cons, our policy..... on a spar? Must have an escape route (we all do when felling). The escape must be operable with one hand. Which shouldn't be an issue because it is physically impossible to cut your left arm/hand with a chainsaw if it is in the 'drivers seat'.

It's a fool's errand, in my opinion, to expect any friction hitch to provide a safe rappel on single rope. As I have said before, one of two things will happen, maybe not every time, but in a high enough percentage to render the technique untenable. The greater the distance, the greater the likelyhood of failure.

Either the hitch will bind up tight and the climber will be stuck in place, or the hitch will begin soften and melt and the climber will loose control of the rappel and fall.

It is just that simple, people. You need to come up with a different escape plan, if you decide you need one.