Friction Savers

[brendonv]

I had always tied in natural crotch....until Carl came over :) . While he was here I tried his Rope Guide for maybe 15 minutes. Such a nice tool, but what a price tag. Because I didn't use it for long, I don't want to dish out the $$ for one-just to find out I won't use it. I also didn't like that you can't set the RG from the ground. Money is tight, so I ordered up some rings from Wesspur and threw together 2 ring and ring FC, one 24" and one 48" for a price tag of maybe 10$ each.

Sometimes in the past I had issues with friction of the natural tie in. Maybe these ring and rings will be the sweet spot between natural friction and the Rope Guides frictionless setup.

I am just curious who uses what. Natural, Ring and Ring, or Rope Guide.

Later,

B

[NickfromWI]

Brendon, I don't know if it's too late for this, but I think you should add, "self made adjustable."

Cool idea for a poll.

I almost never climb natural. Maybe 1/50 climbs I don't use a friction saver of some sort (sometimes the tube-style)

love
nick

[brendonv]

I tried to see if there is a poll edit options, couldn't find anything.

Just pick the style your self made FC would fit into, there's a obvious difference.

I was thinking about adding an adjustable onto my webbing FC you see in the pic, I just don't want so much clangidy clang and bulk in my system. Gotta starting thinking clearing and K.I.S.S.!

[Monkeypuzzle]

It all depends on the job and the tree for me.

[Skwerl]

I already had many years of climbing before ever learning about friction savers. By that time I was quite familiar with friction at the tie in point and learned over the years to pick my tie in locations appropriately. Several years ago I learned about friction savers online and began trying to incorporate them into my climbing routine. I spent the better part of a year trying different setups.

The one consistent factor was that I ended up reclimbing at least one tree per week to retrieve a hung up piece of gear. The second negative factor was the increased twisting of my lifeline. The reduced friction at the tie in point allowed the twisting effect from my hitch to continue unabated. When I went back to natural crotch tie ins, the friction reduced the tendancy of my rope to twist.

The biggest factor in my decision to use friction savers was to reduce my injury to the tree. But I've come to accept that trees live with bumps and bruises and animals chewing their bark without any serious consequences. I've had the opportunity to examine tens of thousands of trees over my climbing career and I have yet to find a single tree that was compromised as a result of a climber's lifeline damaging a fork. I've seen a few rope burns from rigging but even those were nowhere near as perilous as might be suggested in the ISA teachings.

The only time a friction saver is desirable for me is when climbing a sappy pine tree. But even then, our pines have very thick bark so I can get away without it unless there are open wounds dripping sap all over.

[Burnham]

Ring and ring for me, at least of the choices you list in the poll, Brendon. I also have one that has a micro pulley for the small end and a Omega Pacific Jake biner on the other...that one is pretty smooth. And the third I have is the one Nick referred to...the adjustable ring and ring, for cinching on the clean bole of trees or spars.

[Frans]

I like what skwerl said, good points.
Your poll doesn't give the option of 'all of the above'. I use all of them depending on the tree.

I also have an electrical conduit one made by Dan Kraus, and a leather tube.

My rope guide gets used less than the ring and ring

[pantheraba]

Most times I use a leather tube, sometimes a conduit.

I use a ring / ring / adjustable like Nick said when on a spar for a takedown. The adj. ring/ring is pretty useful. I don't have a ropeguide.

I avoid running my rope thru a natural crotch whenever I can...saves the tree and the rope.

[Burnham]

Whoops, I forgot, 'til Frans and Gary reminded me...I have a leather tube, too. That one sure is easy to install and retreive, most times.

[Blinky]

I voted ring/ring but I'm making a rope guide right now... never used one before. I lik'em because the save the rope, I don't think rope does much damage to trees unless you're using the same crotch a WHOLE lot. Like Skwerl says though, the rope hockles up a lot faster.

On pines I use 5/8" Tenex with a big ring spliced on one end and an adjuster prussic with a small ring.

I don't install from the ground. My FC stays on my spliced eye all the time and i just footlock to the TIP and pull it up to install it.

THE best trick I've learned with FCs is using a steel ring instead of a ball or a knot to pull the rig down. The ring never hangs up... almost never anyway. Got the idea from Mark Adams.

...and I like steel rings over aluminum.

[brendonv]

I couldnt find steel rings, where did you get them?

[Blinky]

I couldnt find steel rings, where did you get them?
Wespur and Fresco both have'em. I got mine from Fresco.

[countryboypa31]

I just started always using a ring/ring friction saver, still want a homemade type ropeguide, but struggling with it right now. i prob use my ring/ring one 80% but that number keeps going up, probably used it the last 12 climbs though.

[OTGBOSTON]

THE best trick I've learned with FCs is using a steel ring instead of a ball or a knot to pull the rig down. The ring never hangs up... almost never anyway. Got the idea from Mark Adams.

...and I like steel rings over aluminum.

I use a 1 1/2in washer, cheap and effective!

I also voted ring/ring but I have one made from electrical tubing that I haven't really used yet. Tube one seems like it is easier to use, easier to install and remove.

[squisher]

I use a 1 1/2in washer, cheap and effective!

I also voted ring/ring but I have one made from electrical tubing that I haven't really used yet. Tube one seems like it is easier to use, easier to install and remove.

A washer? instead of rings? how's that on the rope? And how are you certain of strength/manufacturing standards? Or am I not understanding this correctly :|: .

[NickfromWI]

Squish, he's just using the washer as a retriever. I'm assuming he still has 2 aluminum rings on the friction saver, then when it comes time to pulling it out of the tree, you hook the washer to the end of the line rather than tying a knot in the climbing line, or using the little red ball you get with the rope guide.

love
nick

[squisher]

Ahhh, I get it now duhh!

[NickfromWI]

Buckingham will not share their rings, and I've found no supplier in the US that sells similar or identical sized steel rings. Rich H (you can find him at the buzz) has imported some that are a bit thinner, but with the same inside diameters to be used for friction saver making.

If you ever find someone selling steel versions of friction saver rings, please let me know!

love
nick

[No_Bivy]

rings here....I work off it and then usually go back up if there is any question it will pull. I use crotches on some removals...like locust. Any type of FS will greatly prolong the life of a rope......at least till you stick a spur into it.....

[inztrees]

wesper has rings. I got rings from don blairs booth at the tcia expoo. I have them on a climb high sling. I use it more then I use my buc fs

[Blinky]

Ax,

My Buck FS has aluminum rings and I don't know if they differ from the buck steel rings but... I happen to have my digital caliper on the desk here so I'll measure'em. Looks like the ones from Fresco are slightly smaller.

Large Buck Alum = 49mm ID x 77mm OD
Small Buck Alum = 30mm ID x 58mm OD

Large Italian made (Fresco) Steel = 45mm ID x 70mm OD
Small Italian made (Fresco) Steel = 28mm ID x 52mm OD

The steel ones on my Tenex FC are a lot different, I got'em from a Sherril's showroom store.

[Greenhorn]

I usually only natural crotch for second tie ins if needed. Conservation of energy is the reason I hardly ever natural crotch to work off of. Home made ring to rings. I use the little threaded pear shaped thing from sherrill for
retrieving them - 99 pecent success rate, better than knots.

Have friends that almost always climb off a pulley though.

[Stumper]

The poll doesn't really address what I do. 80+ % of the time I climb on natural crotches. When climbing on a TIP that my experience suggests that significant injury to the tree is a real possibility I use a ring and ring. When blocking down a spar I use an adjustable ring and ring.

[OTGBOSTON]

Squish, he's just using the washer as a retriever. I'm assuming he still has 2 aluminum rings on the friction saver, then when it comes time to pulling it out of the tree, you hook the washer to the end of the line rather than tying a knot in the climbing line, or using the little red ball you get with the rope guide.

love
nick

correct!

[treetx]

I use them all. Most important thing is to know when it makes sense.

I have seen beech trees damage by ropes. Birch too.

As far as them getting stuck or setting them, it is one of those things with a learning curve. The more you use them, the easier they are to set and the less they get stuck.

So Rob, will TxTCC 2008 have you as a competitor?

[Bounce]

I mainly use natural and also the ring & ring type friction saver. Natural on removals, and fs for pruning. I recognize that going without a fs isn't going to damage the tree real bad (especially not the doug firs I mainly climb) but its the philosphical point for me. If I went to the doctor to get some stitches and noticed he didn't bother to use a sterized needle or something, and then he tells me "your body has all kinds of bugs in it. A few more aren't going to matter," I'd go find another doctor. Bottom line for me is, I got hired to improve the health of these trees. Just like I feel it is unethical to rip off my customers by overcharging, it see it as unethical to do pruning without a friction saver. This is a personal thing though; I can't condemn anybody for not living up to my standards.

[squisher]

Oh boy can O worms, Sean, can O worms.:lol:

[Ax-Man]

I am going to stick my neck out for the chopping block on this friction saver.

Would any of you guys climb on this homemade FS ??? I can't splice so I have to make due with those cord weaking knots. I made this only because I was never happy with what I bought from the usual suppliers.

This is one of four different FS that I use for when I need something like a mini rope guide for doing small trees with small diameter limbs

I just made this one to replace the one that was almost identical except I was using Stable Braid instead of that Black Max that I never cared for as a climbing hitch. Instead of the pulley shackle I was using a ART mini block that I have found another use for other than on this type friction saver. The ART block is just a tad bigger than that shackle and retrival wasn't all that great. Never got it stuck in the 3 seasons I used this homemade FS but it wasn't as smooth on retrival as I would like it to be. Always took a second or third pull with a little rope whipping to free it. A ring ring retrieved better sometimes.

I am sure I'll get axed for this one. But before I climbed on this I did test it by having two guys on it down on the ground. Up in the tree I have litterally jumped and swung on it harder than normal to see if it would hold while having a second tie in of course before soloing on it.

Let the roasting :P begin.

Just picking up where we kind of left off before the technical difficulities.

Looks like we are fixed.

[NickfromWI]

Larry, nicely done. What is the point of the little ring on the prusik?

love
nick

[Ax-Man]

Thanks Nick

The second small ring is for a back-up to the big ring. With the smaller diameter line the coils of the prussik tend to get sucked into the bigger ring. With 1/2 line this isn't such a big concern. With the ring right against the bridge it keeps the prussik rom being distorted so to speak, the coils stay in the same postion all the time. Retrival is a little better using the smaller diameter line than it is with 1/2 " as you don't have so much line occupying space on the big ring.

I don't if everyone is familar with the Petzl Treesbe friction saver. I liked that friction saver, the webbing was nice, it was light, the length was about right for most of my needs but it has the biggest diameter steel ring on the market but it is a thin ring. The Treesbe was works best with a pulley in front of the ring it comes with, but still left something to be desired IMO. The pulley I used wouldn't line up with the ring all the time unless you use a big pulley.

I rigged the Treebe in the same fashion as a Rope Guide with an ART block. The prussik will slip through the Treebe"s ring which is how I came upon using a second ring. That didn't turn out so good either. Needed to have a large and a small ring for it to work. Just thought I would pass this bit of info along in case someone goes down the same road.

That was overkill to me which lead to the homemade mini- rope guide with the back-up ring.

Forgot to add this, we got our picture posting back but the edit funtion is slow. The yellow tape is to stiffen the splice so that pulley doesn't move around so much, which was a problem. Seems to work anyway.

[countryboypa31]

Where do you find the ART block? I want to buy one, just the block that is, but can't find it? Any help?

[NickfromWI]

I get mine from Greg Good. They run me about $65 each and I use them when people are ordering custom friction savers. They are the best pulley for the job. The cocoon pulley is interesting....

love
nick

[Drella]

The biggest factor in my decision to use friction savers was to reduce my injury to the tree. But I've come to accept that trees live with bumps and bruises and animals chewing their bark without any serious consequences.

Ditto.


I've had the opportunity to examine tens of thousands of trees over my climbing career and I have yet to find a single tree that was compromised as a result of a climber's lifeline damaging a fork..

Exactly.

[rbtree]

I disagree. While the damage I've seen from natural crotching is usually rather minor, it is still damage, and could cause some decay.

I like a fs for many reasons besides being nice to the tree. Makes it easy to go up and down, always a consistent friction level....., allows for moving from one side to the other easier....

For years, I've used two biners, one small, one large, and a pulley on one side, to reduce friction. Now I have a couple of Nick's spliced eye lines, with a lock stitched scaffold =knot, to which I added a prussic to make the FS adjustable. Gotta get another one, a lot longer.....Much easier to install and reinstall... a tad bulkier, and more chance of hanging up on retrieval. Cheaper than a RG....can be set from the ground...and works just fine. Just more friction than a RG, but I find the amount to be just right.
I'll take pics.....

[Drella]

I've been in the same tree, year after year, and in only one, did I notice any damage done by my line running naturally. It was on a Beech and when I returned the next year, I noticed that it had healed up perfectly. And the only reason it did have damage is because the year before I was showing off by dropping 50' in a matter of a few seconds.

Now, when I was training for the OHISA climbing comps I had set up a pulley in my garage and would hand over hand without thrusting-- till I reached the top.

If you've ever done this, you would know how tuff it is, even in your best physical shape. For this reason alone, I never wanted to run a friction saver.

Is it difficult to do a body thrust with a friction saver? What I mean is, when thrusting up- and just before you slide your knot, is it tuff holding yourself up without sliding down -whilst holding with one hand?

I'm not opposed using a FS. especially when I can use it for spar work as my false top...