Cone picking pics for Bounce

[Burnham]

I reckon the rest of you can look, too :). These were put up in one of the old versions of the THouse, so many of you may have seen them before.

Sean and I were in chat, and he asked about cone picking. These were taken in the pre-digital days, 1999 I think. The first 3 are me, the last two are my climbing partner, who is my wife :D.

[brendonv]

Dannnnnnnng. My buns are puckering just looking at those teeny tiny tops. Pretty crazy Burn.

[MasterBlaster]

I can't believe those skinny tops don't bust.

[squisher]

Cool pics, thanks for re-posting them.8)

[No_Bivy]

wind tested = STOUT

[Burnham]

Sometimes they do, Butch. Sometimes they do.

You have to plan on it happening, take the proper precautions, and learn the techniques to help keep the tree in one piece while you're up there working it.

[squisher]

Ok Burnham you've piqued my curiosity. What precuations do you employ?:)

[No_Bivy]

Awesome, Burnham. I would really enjoy that job........

[Burnham]

wind tested = STOUT

I wish that was always the case, John...but those little diameters can be fragile when a climber is up there.

[sotc]

i didnt know the mrs climbed too! cool

[Burnham]

Ok Burnham you've piqued my curiosity. What precuations do you employ?:)

Set up a self-belay system anchored below the diameter where top breakout can occur. I might be able to link to descriptions of this in the old Treehouse...I'll look tomorrow. The system devised by USFS climbers is called the "four inch tie in system". It's been the subject of some discussions in the past.

After that: move smoothly, keep your weight close to the bole, keep you back to the wind, know what each species can take in general, guess right on how much you can push the envelope in each specific tree.

Faint of heart need not apply :).

[squisher]

Faint of heart need not apply :).

No kidding :O , damn those tops are skinny. I think I get the gist of what you were describing still sorta sounds like a better then nothing if it hits the fan sort of procedure. Not like something you'd really want to be testing out.

[Burnham]

i didnt know the mrs climbed too! cool

115 lbs. soaking wet, muscular...she can really get into the smallwood :D.

[sotc]

i remember something about half hitching with your knots upside down and beneath each whorl of limbs till you hit 4-5 inch wood. am i close?

[No_Bivy]

How does the belay system work?

[stehansen]

115 lbs. soaking wet, muscular...she can really get into the smallwood :D.

Awesome Burnham.

[Burnham]

Here is a link to one thread from the old TreeHouse where I gave a pretty complete description of the Forest Service self-belay protocol. This system was devised by PNW climbers working in the very upper portions of conifers, harvesting cones for reforestation seed and grafting scion for establishment of seed orchards.

Not quite, Willie...check out the link below and if it is confusing, ask away and I'll try to clarify.

John, it's quite a bit like lead climbing on rock, except you manage the belay yourself rather have a second do so...though you can work it that way, too. I never have.

http://gypoclimber.com/treehouse/viewtopic.php?t=3667

The linked thread above includes a link :|: . Here it is...the actual description of how the system is deployed. If you don't want to go through the whole thing you can get the meat here, on page 194 and 195 of the old TH Photo thread.

http://gypoclimber.com/treehouse/viewtopic.php?p=87584#87584

[Burnham]

i didnt know the mrs climbed too! cool


115 lbs. soaking wet, muscular...she can really get into the smallwood :D.


Awesome Burnham.

Full disclosure: My partner, though still a fully qualified and certified FS climber, no longer holds a FS position where climbing is part of her responsibilities. She makes a point of keeping up her cert. by attending the required training at least every 3 years. I have had to move on to other climbing partners since those pics were taken :cry: .

We do still climb together on our own time, both tending to the trees on our 5 acres, and just for fun. It's a joy to bring home some new hitch or whiz bang gadget to show her, both equally charged up by the possibilities...so few people can really relate to what it's like to be a tree climber, having my best friend and life partner in that small group is one of the special things about our relationship ;) .

[gf beranek]

Taper of the tree has all to do with how much it sways. A tree growing in the open will generally have a quicker taper and make it easier and safer to work in its tippy top. In that case the top itself may be the only part that bows over and the possiblily of a break occuring is mostly slight.

In dense forest stands the trees grow slender, tall and are very slow tapered. Approaching the top of such a tree can result in the entire stem bending, and or bowing over. In which case a breakout can occur far below you.

I worked in the tippy tops of such trees many times, but not without tying them off to other trees as I go up. In thick stands it's easy enough to do. It really doesn't take all that much to keep them upright and straight. Throwline is often all it takes. Though I will admit using rope is more reassuring.

I've used as many as four lines to keep the tree from bowing over while I worked its top out. Like Burnam said, keep close and back to the wind.

[Tom_Scheller]

Whenever I start to think I'm cool Burnham starts a thread. Damn.

TS

[sotc]

ahh slings and biners. and above the whorls, thanks for the link, im a lazy surfer:)

[Bounce]

move smoothly, keep your weight close to the bole, keep you back to the wind, know what each species can take in general, guess right on how much you can push the envelope in each specific tree.:O and don't eat too many big macs, I'd also add. I guess there just aren't that many samoan cone harvesters then?

Holy shyte Burn! The pictures make it seem even more incredible than when we talked.

[Bounce]

Man I bet you are just lathered in pitch at the end of the day. That is one sticky part of the tree.

[Rotax Robert]

I did alot of cone picking as a kid and young man, paid pretty good money too as I remember, but could not tell you how much that was now. I have'nt realy noticed anybody doing it anymore though. maybe I am not paying attention.

I sure do miss all that pitch that took about a gallon of gas to get off.

[gf beranek]

Yeah, the pitch in those tops can sure gum up the ropes really quick.

Robert, mayonaise is a great pitch cutter. Actually better than gas, and it's not bad on ham and swiss sandwiches too.

[Skwerl]

GoJo brand hand cleaner has always been my preferred sap eliminator. The plain cream style, not the citrus with pumice style. I keep a small can of it on the work truck all the time.

[Burnham]

Goop brand hand cleaner is even better for pitch removal, Skwerlie.

I've used a few zillion gallons of both over the years.

[Monkeypuzzle]

I do a small amount of cone picking here in Montana for the Forest Service.

FS requires another climber on the ground while one is aloft.....Can't find any quality climbers around these part to help so I bid high as hell just to bid.

They made me feel like a migrant monkey.

[Burnham]

I do a small amount of cone picking here in Montana for the Forest Service.

FS requires another climber on the ground while one is aloft.....Can't find any quality climbers around these part to help so I bid high as hell just to bid.

They made me feel like a migrant monkey.

How so, Steve?

BTW, good to read you again. Been awhile.

[Monkeypuzzle]

Migrant worker.........picking things.....sweaty....sap everywhere....can you climb one more?

Thats all I meant.

thanks

[Burnham]

Ah, good.

Sometimes contract climbers come in with shoddy gear and non-existent safety attitudes, and a FS employee whose job it is to administer a cone collection contract might perhaps be forgiven for getting something of an attitude themselves if past experiences have been unfavorable. It's not right, but maybe understandable.

Glad that wasn't the case for you. I'm sure, if they had half a brain and any experience, they were suitably impressed with your gear and skills.

[stehansen]

Here is how we do it in my neck of the woods.

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[MasterBlaster]

That's cool.

[Monkeypuzzle]

The south had a killer pecan crop this year. Loaded.

[squisher]

That's wild Steve, I've never seen one of those before.

[Jamin Mayer]

That's a great video Steve. I have a 12-15 year old Black Walnut tree next to my house. When it is time to harvest the nuts, I climb about 2/3's up and lanyard in. I then shake the crap out of the tree. Walnuts go fly'n! :lol:

My boys love to get "bonked in the head" and try to catch them. (Pleas don't call social services):/: After that, we get out a hammer, sit on the sidewalk and eat some. One year we gathered 20 gallons of walnuts!

[MasterBlaster]

(Pleas don't call social services):/:

:lol:

[sotc]

an ex girlfriends family used rubber mallets on their almond trees, a wee bit slower!

[The Branch Doctor]

Hey Jamin, that sounds like good ol fashion family time to me.... and fun for all.

[stehansen]

an ex girlfriends family used rubber mallets on their almond trees, a wee bit slower!

That's what they used here until the 60's when they invented these machines. I had a job driving one at night while going to Junior College. Takes care of any deadwood also.:)

[squisher]

Do many trees get damaged using that machine or is it pretty foolproof?

[MasterBlaster]

Do many trees get damaged using that machine or is it pretty foolproof?

I'm sure you could run one.





























































:P

[squisher]

Ha and I'm sure I could damage a few trees with one too, if I set my mind to it.:lol:

[Paul B]

then we would have to call you shaker instead of squisher.

[stehansen]

If you square up the shaking head with the trunk of the tree then it won't damage very many. There are almost 100,000 acres of almonds and close to 30,000 acres of walnuts in this county alone all of which are shook with a machine like the one in the video. No more difficult than snow plowing Squisher. Maybe one operator in ten would be english speaking.

[squisher]

Trust me man, as I'm sure there is to that, there's a science to plowing efficiently and well without wrecking stuff. Hopefully I learn it before I bust up my truck and new plow.:D

[stehansen]

There is more to every job than what it appears Squish. What I'm saying is if you can run a snow plow then you probably have more than enough mechanbical aptitude to do this job. I think they both involve similar duties, driving the machine in just the right place while operating the controls for the plow/shaker head.
The "pillows" that cushion the grip on the tree have evolved over the years. The machine that I drove in 1972 had a airbag filled with ground up walnut shells and inflated to 40 psi with compressed air. I had to stop every half hour and slather grease between the pillows and the rubber flaps that went between them and the tree. Also sometimes they would get hot and any moisture in the walnut shells would turn to steam in there and the thing would blow up. The shaking was provided by a hydraulic motor which belt drove two eccentrics each with a different sized pulley so that it would provide a variable shaking pattern. Now they have two eccentrics each with their own hydraulic motor and the shaking pattern and speed is computer controlled. The pillows are now made with a U shaped piece of heavy rubber that requires no maintenance. They also now have a custom built tubular frame with a nice cab and AC/heat and a vibration dampening system and a tier 3 John Deere diesel. The one I drove was built on a GMC 1-ton chassis with the operator controls turned around to face the back and the boom was mounted over the rear end. It had the standard gasoline straight 6 motor with an automatic transmission. After about 5 years it would start cracking the frame. Needless to say no AC or heat, or even a top as it had been removed. My shift began at 6:00 PM and ended at midnight. I was always falling asleep in class.

[Burnham]

Those shaker rigs have been tried for harvesting Douglas fir cones in our seed orchards...didn't work on conifers, a harmonic oscilation set up almost right away and broke the tops out before the cones started to rain down.

[sotc]

makes em easier to pick:D

[Burnham]

makes em easier to pick:D

Yeah, that one time...
:lol:

[stehansen]

That happens to the orchard trees also but not as severe probably because of the shorter distance. I have seen it shake the leaves into knots and break off healthy fruit wood. Takes care of any deadwood. Oh well, another million dollar idea down the drain.

[Poleframer]

I think I was more skeered in the tops doing scion collection. Going up there in winter conditions presented a few other challenges!

[Burnham]

I think I was more skeered in the tops doing scion collection. Going up there in winter conditions presented a few other challenges!

That is the flat out truth, Russell. Just getting to the trees was a battle...snowmobile trailers hauled over un-plowed roads, then snomo in back country, then climb in snow, ice, wind...hellatious bad conditions. Glad I'm done with that task, hope to never do the like again.

Good to read ya, hope all is well down in your little hidehole. Did you ever get that parts washer up and operational?

[Burnham]

Bump! I noticed that a Guest was checking out this old thread in the Who's Online page...don't know how they even found it. But I opened it up, for old times sake. The pictures were no longer with it, but I've added them back, 'twas only five of them.

There are a couple of links to other even older threads where the FS self-belay system we use when working the small wood are described...those no longer work, unfortunately. If we want to go through describing that system again, just ask.

Anyway, thought some of our newer members might like to check this one out.

[Skwerl]

Great thread, B. I remember Steve's almond tree shaker even though the video is no longer available.

[simplypete]

I seem to remember you saying that you set a anchor then added protection as you went higher. That way if something broke out you only fell to your last piece of pro. Similar to rock climbing. I don't remember the entire jist of the system but I am one that would like to hear again the way you do that.

[atw]

cool thread

[Burnham]

I seem to remember you saying that you set a anchor then added protection as you went higher. That way if something broke out you only fell to your last piece of pro. Similar to rock climbing. I don't remember the entire jist of the system but I am one that would like to hear again the way you do that.

Pete, you have the general picture accurately. The FS system for self-belay is called the "4-inch tie in". The idea is that there is a bole diameter in most western conifers that is pretty immune to breaking out from the effects of a climber above that point...i.e. 4 inches. That's your minimum diameter to consider a bomb proof anchor point. Some species, or in some conditions, you'd elect to go bigger, but never smaller.

So you climb by whatever combination of techniques is appropriate to that bole diameter. You have taken with you your 4-inch tie-in system...usually about 40 feet of 11mm fully dynamic climbing rope, about 6 slings, each with a triple action biner, and a prussik loop.

Under a whorl at +4 inch bole diameter, tie off one end of the belay rope around the stem, throw a prussik on it with the loop, and clip it into the center point of your saddle with a life support biner. Tie a good stopper knot on the other end of the belay rope. Advance the prussik 3 feet or so up the belay rope.

Climb no more than 3 feet, place a sling in a basket hitch above a whorl, and clip a tri-act biner into the legs of the sling and run the belay rope through the biner. Make sure you've advanced the prussik above the biner. Descending, never forget to bring the prussik down with you as you go, otherwise way too much slack developes for adequate protection.

The 3 foot figure keeps you from exposing yourself to a fall of over 6 feet, per OSHA.

Repeat until you run out of tree :). If you break the top out, you won't enjoy it, but you also won't hit the ground. I personally know of two real-life instances where the climbers insist that this system saved their lives when the tree top failed under them while picking cones.

Use a lanyard to assist positioning, and to free your hands to install and remove the self-belay protection points...but always remember that the lanyard does not protect you from a fall if you don't have the self belay in place and you break out the top you are lanyarded to. Once above the anchor point, never disconnect the belay system from your harness.

You can do a similar thing with your DRT system if you need to climb above your tie-in, but you need to rig a sling to keep your life line in it's crotch or on it's limb. Excess friction can build up pretty quickly as you add protection points, and make it much more difficult to work in than the 4-inch tie in, but it's a good trick to have in your bag.

[CurSedVoyce]

Wish the self belay systems links still worked... I think I have it pictured in my head right and used it or something like it a couple times in the past when the tops felt shaky on some dead pines I once did .... I had a few behind me every 3 foot.

Edit.. looks like you were typing it as I was typing.. LOL
I used SRT for my climb system on the belay system

[flushcut]

I reckon the rest of you can look, too :). These were put up in one of the old versions of the THouse, so many of you may have seen them before.

Sean and I were in chat, and he asked about cone picking. These were taken in the pre-digital days, 1999 I think. The first 3 are me, the last two are my climbing partner, who is my wife :D.
That is crazy small!:occasion5:

[flushcut]

Wish the self belay systems links still worked... I think I have it pictured in my head right and used it or something like it a couple times in the past when the tops felt shaky on some dead pines I once did .... I had a few behind me every 3 foot.

Edit.. looks like you were typing it as I was typing.. LOL
I used SRT for my climb system on the belay system
Try looking at it like this. The end of a climb line is tied off below you and you climb up using your saddle as a block if you will, but it is a hitch or grigri or some other fall arrest device. What's recommended or approved I have no idea. Every so often you use a sling and biner as said before a triact around the stem and pull a bight of rope up between your hitch and the tied off end of your climb line and clip in. When you are at the next point where you clip in you will only fall twice the distance you are above your last clip in point. I would also think the top you are tied into comes along for the ride with you if it goes. So I would say keep the clip in points together when climbing a closet pole. I have never done this kind of work but am going off years of rock climbing and that's how I would do it.

[CurSedVoyce]

That is how I pictured it.. As a rock climber would do it.