Beranek's Coos Bay felling cut vs. Burnham's

[Burnham]

Jerry, I was very interested to note in your Fundamentals that the method you describe for forming this felling cut is somewhat different than that I was taught.

You put no face cut in at all, just take a third of the diameter off each side, parallel to the head lean...then cut hell for leather from the back on through to the front.

I put in a face cut, relatively shallow but otherwise normal, gunned to the head lean. Then using the tip and as much of the bar as needed, working from one side and then from the other, take off the wood behind the hinge leaving a central strip just like you do. Then back cut as you describe...sharp chain, strong saw, high rpms. Gary (GSAoline71) drew a nice diagram that showed this style Coos Bay cut not too long ago.

I rather like my technique better...no hinge just doesn't feel right to me.

I'd enjoy hearing your comments a great deal, if you don't mind.

Edit: Anyone else's too, for that matter :).

[Stumper]

With utmost respect for Jer I prefer the sound of your method Burnham-and must admit that I have never used either one

[TheTreeSpyder]

i prefer facing too in theory, but; as long as there is something holding on as she flexes over; i think there is a hinge mechanic. But have done some strong stuff without. Just perhaps with no face: more to a point(than spread force with face), less/no relief with no face and less further 'undermining' of the CG.

[gf beranek]

Ah yes. That brings back one heck of a story.

The Coos Bay cut was first described to me by Mike Davis, RIP, yes the M. Davis in High climbers. The way Mike described it to me then is the way I've used the cut since. With minor varients to suit the situation, of course.

When Mike was first describing the Coos's Bay cut to me, back in 1986 at the Golden West Hotel Saloon, I was astounded by the shear "against the grain methodology" I thought to myself, "He can't be serious." Dave Deconti was present during Mikes description and we both exchanged eye contact a number of times in disbelief of what Mike was telling us.

I had to ask Mike a couple of times just to get it straight without any misunderstanding. Needless to say I was still skeptical even after 20 Budwisers.

When I went to work for Pete Benedeti in 89 I watched Raymond Bates use the cut exactly as Mike described it. The tree was a redwood, heavy leaner over the county road. The county road crew closed the road off and in three cuts, less than one minute, that tree floped across the pavement and was doing the dying quivers.

Even at that I never attempted to use the Coos Bay. I was still too skeptical.

A few years later, round about 92 or so, I was working in Dos Rios for Homer Helms. Dos Rios is rattle snake, bald face hornet infested hell hole I'll never forget. Well the Bullbuck on that harvest plan awarded me a strip on a big slide that covered a few acres of the mountain. The Bullbuck said he liked me. Most the trees on that strip toppled when the the hill side slipped out, I guessed about 10 years before my arrival, the downed trees were all pretty well rotten. Now the trees left standing, if you want to call it that, were all heavy leaners, no, no hangers, like holding out your arm, Douglas Fir averaging about a thousand foot apiece. Scratch your head in wonder thinking about the forces on the roots holding them.

It was impossible to fall to a lead. Every tree leaned a different way, over one another and over bad ground. I walk through those trees two times without even tugging on the pull rope. Finally when I came back to where I started, I thought about what Mike told me, and I remembered how Raymond Bates flopped that redwood in just three cuts.

I was thinking, "Man, I'm gonna have one of these trees barber chair and lose my saw and possibly my life." I looked across the hillside, up and down and thought, "I'm not walking through this again. I'm gonna just start cutting the way Mike told me. F it."

So I tugged on that pull rope and brought life into a sawing machine that was hell bent for destruction. Knees knocking and sweat pouring I cut one side of the trunk, better than a third, socked a wedge in, and cut the other side the same, then hit the back!!!

The sound of wood pulling from the stump ecohed across the caynon and the tree launched itself into the worse lay you could imagine. Fortunatly it was Doug Fir, and tough, and it took the hit. SOB to buck. Would of been easier if it broke clean. No such luck.

So, OK! That was the first one. So far so good. I have couple dozen more.

About 4 o'clock that afternoon I had the last of the outlaws apprehenced and bucked them all, honest to God. I felt like a pro. Oh, yeah.

It was late in the day for a timber faller to walk out of the woods. Most the others were out of there by 1 oclock and home by the time I quit. I wanted to finish that strip. I didn't want to go back to it in the morning. My next strip was steep ground but the trees stood fare and straight, and was going to be a heck of a lot easier.

I suppose had I learned the Coos Bay from someone else, like yourselves, I would have done it that way. I recall when the discussion about the Coos bay came up here at the house the description was different than what I have used and wrote about. I found it interesting the varients of methods to solve a common problem. And I knew one day someone here would call me on it.

Thanks, Burnam.

Since using the Coos' Bay on that God awful strip in Dos Rios I started using it in the trees to launch big, heavy, hanging, limbs and spars. It works great.

It'll pull wood, generally out of the stub,or stump, but it solves the issues of getting a saw stuck in a cut by undercutting a heavily compress portion of a stem or trunk. Non-directional. Only good for flopping.

Varients? Yes! Even though a tree with heavy head lean,,, it can also favor one side. Cut that side first, better than a third, set a wedge. Cut the other side. Then bore into the holding wood, and threat it like you would with a conventional face and bore cut to trip.

Heavy head leaners are a Son of a Bitch. Anybody that's been in the business for long can attest to it. Even treated with the best of your knowledge and skill they can still get you. Always treat them with the utmost respect and have a clear and safe way out of there.

Up in the tree? Always excute the cut from above.

Thank you Mike Davis for the knowledge. RIP, 2003

[Jonseredbred]

I wonder if this is what we refer to as a "flat cut"???

[gf beranek]

Never heard of that one.

[Jonseredbred]

Cut the root flare towards the lay (front), clean out all of the center wood from the front side leaving a small portion in the back and side root flares. cut the back strap, insert wedge then cut straight down the side root flares so the tree pops off the stump.

Sorry, I cant put it into words any better than that.

We use it on Black Walnuts and Hard Maples here to keep from pulling the centers.

[gf beranek]

Yeah, you don't want wood pull on valuable logs like that.

Names and descriptions of the techniques used in this business can be tough and confusing to get across to others. As the old saying goes, "One picture worth thousand words" Even better to have it demostrated live.

[wiley_p]

I've used the Coos Bay alot on heavy Alders. Jim Justus showed it to me when I was younger and knew everything:D , I never knew the proper name for it till I read Gerry's book in the late 90's. I always called it a strip cut. I just learned the name of another cut I have been using for the last few years on heavy trees that I am trying to keep sidehill, Another one that was taught to me by a guy from Forks, WA. Eric Schatz said it is a sidehill undercut. Works WAY better than a Swing Dutchman w/ a swizwill for holding those bastards in the lay.

[GASoline71]

Names and descriptions of the techniques used in this business can be tough and confusing to get across to others. As the old saying goes, "One picture worth thousand words" Even better to have it demostrated live.

When I was discussing with Burnahm some serious head leaners I had to deal with on a job, he described to me the Coos Bay cut as he uses it.

He described it perfectly to me via a PM. Worked like a charm too.

I tried to describe it to a friend of mine (my groundie at the time) on another job. We were even right there at the stump as I was tryin' to explain what I was about to do. He just scratched his head and said, "Show me."

So I did... he was pretty impressed with how well it works.

Thanks Burnham for the info!

Thanks to you too Gerry... for if you would not have been in that saloon sluggin' back Bud's with your pal... the cut prolly would not be as known on the West Coast.

Gary

[Al Smith]

Cut the root flare towards the lay (front), clean out all of the center wood from the front side leaving a small portion in the back and side root flares. cut the back strap, insert wedge then cut straight down the side root flares so the tree pops off the stump.

Sorry, I cant put it into words any better than that.

We use it on Black Walnuts and Hard Maples here to keep from pulling the centers. I've never done so myself but in my woods is the remains of a big red oak somebody flopped like that .

I don't know if you can tell by this picture or not.

[Jonseredbred]

Yes Al, that looks like the remains of what we call a flat cut.

[High Scale]

Great reading Gerry, Gary do you still have that diagram?

[Burnham]

Great reading Gerry, Gary do you still have that diagram?

It's in this thread, Carl. Post #25.

http://www.gypoclimber.com/showthread.php?t=7746&page=3

[Al Smith]

Yes Al, that looks like the remains of what we call a flat cut. Not to derail the talk of a Coos Bay but how in the world is this flat cut done.By that it is apparent that the tree would set down on the bar with just a root swell holding it up .

Do you stand the front up on a set of wedges or something??? From the looks of that stump I could not see any hinge and I imagine that big old oak,all 100 foot of it must have weighed 10 or 15 tons or more.

[High Scale]

Thanks Burn. :)

[Reddog]

Al,
I started a thread on Spur/Flat cutting.
http://masterblasterhome.com/showthread.php?p=196613#post196613

Interesting on the Coos Bay, in this area that is a Strap or Flank cut. And I have always seen it with a Face notch.

Good reading like always.

[gf beranek]

Names of specific cuts people use everyday are often different in every local. But slowly through internet forums and chat rooms I think a lot of the confusion different slang, jargon and names create will diminish.

Did that make any sense?

[Burnham]

Thanks very much, Jerry. That's a great story. Know what? You oughta write a book :lol: .

Your point about the hazard of having a heavy head leaner set down on your saw trying to get a face cut in is for true...it can be a challenge. I've managed it on a couple of occasions by reaming the kerfs as they want to close, but that can take an awfully fine sense of touch. If you misjudge, it sucks the hairy moose lips, as Stumper would so eloquently say.

I'm going to keep Mike Davis' and your method in mind...there will just as likely as not come a time when I'll want to use it. In fact, I can think of a very heavy leaner, a western red cedar that needs to come down when the snow melts...leans over a road and a trail. Bet that'll be the one.
Also thanks for the description of that Coos Bay variation of boreing the backcut. Another trick to put in the mental toolbox.

Sorry to hear that Mr. Davis is no longer with us. Damn but that man had a set of arms and shoulders on him. What a cutter. One of the finest pictures in High Climbers and Timber Fallers for my money is of him bucking a big redwood laying up and down that really steep slope in James Creek. Bucking on a slope like that is so difficult...

Thanks Jerry.

[JIML]

Sorry to hear that Mr. Davis is no longer with us. Damn but that man had a set of arms and shoulders on him. What a cutter. One of the finest pictures in High Climbers and Timber Fallers for my money is of him bucking a big redwood laying up and down that really steep slope in James Creek. Bucking on a slope like that is so difficult...

Thanks Jerry.

Yeah I read thru the book and most all the guys in the book look no bigger than you or me. They you happen across the Mike Davis pictures. He was pretty big fella.

[gf beranek]

Mike was only 5' 8" tall, but just as wide in the shoulders. Incredibly strong man.

[Skwerl]

A good thread worthy of bumping, since the topic comes up once in a while. Maybe it will be picked up in the forum search if it gets bumped since the old threads aren't searchable.

[Burnham]

Here's another one which I put up not too long after the on Brian just bumped, and this one still has the photos attached, for some reason.
http://gypoclimber.com/showthread.php?9510-That-Coos-Bay-felling-cut-again!

[Burnham]

Hey, GASoline71/Gary...you still have that diagram?...it's lost from the thread, might be useful to repost if you do.

[rskybiz]

Great bump! I was shown this by a logger Mike Hammer shown to me for the same scenario as Burnham's snow laden pics in the http://gypoclimber.com/showthread.php?9510-That-Coos-Bay-felling-cut-again thread.

[CurSedVoyce]

The knowledge in those two threads sure saved my butt over the last year or so. Had some nasty leaning oaks to deal with and I believe one gray pine that saw the coos cut since I learned it from these esteemed gentlemen on this forum. :thumbup:
Great thread bump.

[Knotahippie]

That Coo's Bay is the cat's meow for big limbs.

Used it a LOT since learning it here.

Thanks, Legends.

[Burnham]

Aside from the unquestionable fact that Jerry B. is unassuming when complimented on his abilities and knowlege, and I carry mere shadow of his expertise...let the legends STRUT!!
:lol:
Hahahaha...silliness is fun, late at night when away from home, stuck in a hotel. Thank goodness for wifi :).

[CurSedVoyce]

And a good scotch ?? :)

[Burnham]

Ah, my friend Stephen...you know me well.
;)

[CurSedVoyce]

;)

[MasterBlaster]

Ha! Dang drunken interwebz freaks!!! Get off my lawn!!! :P

[gf beranek]

I have to admit the first time I used the coos bay I was a little skeptical, but the words of Mike Davis kept going over and over in my mind. I was working on an old slide acres in size. Most of the trees on the slope had fallen when the hill slipped years before. for the ones that didn't fall they leaned heavily every which direction and there was little chance to try to swing any of them. And so Mike's words kept going through my mind. finally I gave in and did it, and it worked and it worked again and again. Til there wasn't a leaner left on that hill side. Boy the coos bay save me so much time and anxiety that day. It was a turning point for the better in my method and approach to dealing with heavy leaners. And I can thank Mike Davis for it. RIP

[chris_girard]

Hey Jer, I remember the first time that I saw the coos bay in your Fundamentals book years ago, and I wondered how that would really work out. Then I saw how you used it up in the trees to remove those large heavy limbs in your Working Climber Two DVD and I said wow! The lightbulb went on and I realized how productive the cut could be, when executed correctly.

I also remember seeing pictures of Mike Davis in your books and thinking that's one hell of a tough looking logger. You could tell that he knew more than a thing or two about woods work. When I read in your HighClimber book that he had passed away, I was very surprised and sorry. Even though I didn't know Mike personally, I can tell that he was someone that I would have liked. Sounds like he wasn't too old either when he passed away.... another one gone too soon.

[gf beranek]

Mike always had some of the greatest stories of him and his dad working in Klamath. One always stuck in my mind of him climbing up and over a knoll on the hillside and having to reach down and help his dad up. Standing there on that knoll they suddenly realized they were on top of a wind fall. And it was a sound wind fall that bucked into logs made them a good day. A very good day Mike said.

The thing that really struck me about the story was the tree wasn't even recognizable till they got up on it. Oh, Mike had plenty more stories to tell. I really miss him.

[flushcut]

From your writings in High Climbers he seemed like a hellva guy to know! The story I like best about him is " I got to do this just so I can say with some qualification, I was here. "

[Skwerl]

Ah yes. That brings back one heck of a story.

The Coos Bay cut was first described to me by Mike Davis, RIP, yes the M. Davis in High climbers. The way Mike described it to me then is the way I've used the cut since. With minor varients to suit the situation, of course.

When Mike was first describing the Coos's Bay cut to me, back in 1986 at the Golden West Hotel Saloon, I was astounded by the shear "against the grain methodology" I thought to myself, "He can't be serious." Dave Deconti was present during Mikes description and we both exchanged eye contact a number of times in disbelief of what Mike was telling us.

I had to ask Mike a couple of times just to get it straight without any misunderstanding. Needless to say I was still skeptical even after 20 Budwisers.

When I went to work for Pete Benedeti in 89 I watched Raymond Bates use the cut exactly as Mike described it. The tree was a redwood, heavy leaner over the county road. The county road crew closed the road off and in three cuts, less than one minute, that tree floped across the pavement and was doing the dying quivers.

Even at that I never attempted to use the Coos Bay. I was still too skeptical.

A few years later, round about 92 or so, I was working in Dos Rios for Homer Helms. Dos Rios is rattle snake, bald face hornet infested hell hole I'll never forget. Well the Bullbuck on that harvest plan awarded me a strip on a big slide that covered a few acres of the mountain. The Bullbuck said he liked me. Most the trees on that strip toppled when the the hill side slipped out, I guessed about 10 years before my arrival, the downed trees were all pretty well rotten. Now the trees left standing, if you want to call it that, were all heavy leaners, no, no hangers, like holding out your arm, Douglas Fir averaging about a thousand foot apiece. Scratch your head in wonder thinking about the forces on the roots holding them.

It was impossible to fall to a lead. Every tree leaned a different way, over one another and over bad ground. I walk through those trees two times without even tugging on the pull rope. Finally when I came back to where I started, I thought about what Mike told me, and I remembered how Raymond Bates flopped that redwood in just three cuts.

I was thinking, "Man, I'm gonna have one of these trees barber chair and lose my saw and possibly my life." I looked across the hillside, up and down and thought, "I'm not walking through this again. I'm gonna just start cutting the way Mike told me. F it."

So I tugged on that pull rope and brought life into a sawing machine that was hell bent for destruction. Knees knocking and sweat pouring I cut one side of the trunk, better than a third, socked a wedge in, and cut the other side the same, then hit the back!!!

The sound of wood pulling from the stump ecohed across the caynon and the tree launched itself into the worse lay you could imagine. Fortunatly it was Doug Fir, and tough, and it took the hit. SOB to buck. Would of been easier if it broke clean. No such luck.

So, OK! That was the first one. So far so good. I have couple dozen more.

About 4 o'clock that afternoon I had the last of the outlaws apprehenced and bucked them all, honest to God. I felt like a pro. Oh, yeah.

It was late in the day for a timber faller to walk out of the woods. Most the others were out of there by 1 oclock and home by the time I quit. I wanted to finish that strip. I didn't want to go back to it in the morning. My next strip was steep ground but the trees stood fare and straight, and was going to be a heck of a lot easier.

I suppose had I learned the Coos Bay from someone else, like yourselves, I would have done it that way. I recall when the discussion about the Coos bay came up here at the house the description was different than what I have used and wrote about. I found it interesting the varients of methods to solve a common problem. And I knew one day someone here would call me on it.

Thanks, Burnam.

Since using the Coos' Bay on that God awful strip in Dos Rios I started using it in the trees to launch big, heavy, hanging, limbs and spars. It works great.

It'll pull wood, generally out of the stub,or stump, but it solves the issues of getting a saw stuck in a cut by undercutting a heavily compress portion of a stem or trunk. Non-directional. Only good for flopping.

Varients? Yes! Even though a tree with heavy head lean,,, it can also favor one side. Cut that side first, better than a third, set a wedge. Cut the other side. Then bore into the holding wood, and threat it like you would with a conventional face and bore cut to trip.

Heavy head leaners are a Son of a Bitch. Anybody that's been in the business for long can attest to it. Even treated with the best of your knowledge and skill they can still get you. Always treat them with the utmost respect and have a clear and safe way out of there.

Up in the tree? Always excute the cut from above.

Thank you Mike Davis for the knowledge. RIP, 2003
I just wanted to bump this thread and say that this is probably the best post I've seen on this forum in many years. :thumbup:

[CurSedVoyce]

An awesome thread for sure. I put it in my subscribed list a while back. Nice bump Brian :thumbup:

[woodworkingboy]

Agreed, that post is mind lingering.

"Subscribed list"...hmmm, I had better read the instructions.

[cory]

Yeah, very cool! I log on this site like 4 times a day, but how did I missed this one??

[inbredJed]

Thanks tons Jer.

[Bermy]

I tried it today...on a palm tree. The trunk was nearly horizontal to the ground, about 20' long with the top portion heading back vertical because it had found the light again, probably got blown over in a storm.
Palms are notorious for settling on your bar as the fibrous trunks are cut and the weight sets them down, with the extreme lean a face, bore and trip might have left me with a saw stuck in the middle of a palm trunk so I thought, hey, good time to try a low risk coos bay...
I couldn't exactly remember the sequence so I put a real small kerf in the bottom, then sliced the sides about 1/4 each then cut from the back...the palm just capitulated and plopped right down no problem at all.
Next I'll have to try it on a proper tree!

[inbredJed]

Fiona: Can a palm barber-chair?

[Skwerl]

Jed, it's almost impossible. But the fibrous wood will pinch your saw in a heartbeat.

[inbredJed]

Which is why she wanted to just dice it real quick from the back. Right? Got it.:D

[Bermy]

Thats the ticket Jed, and it just happened to be the first serious head leaner I've had in a while that was low risk enough to try something new on!

[gf beranek]

The Coos's bay goes against conventional wisdoms, but the proof is in the results. It works.

[ValleyArborist]

Tried the Coos Bay a few months ago on a small (10") elm. The tree had major lean. I used the Beranek method and it worked really well.

[sierratree]

from my keyboard, if you use any sort of an undercut, just need to make sure that when the backcut goes in, it procedes fast enough so if and when the undercut closes, is doesn't have enough time to create any internal, verticle tension to create a barber chair. likewise, without an undercut, spin the chain as fast as it can go and keep cutting until the tree is free from it's hinge.

[pete mctree]

That's the drawback with any form of face or undercut. You create an area behind it where the pressure can build up, splitting the wood fibres in the worse case scenario.However the directional properties gained is what makes managing limbs & timber possible. For heavily head leaning work the coos bay has been a great addition to my list of techniques, both in the tree & on the floor cutting.

[Peter]

Now that you mention in the tree, I do use a variation of the CB on large heavy horizontal limbs instead of a step cut. Never really thought about it as a CB cut, but that is more or less what it is.

Shallow cut on the underside, followed by two vertical cuts, one each side, to leave a vertical strip of uncut wood, either an even thickness or tapered down in a triangle. Then cut the holding wood as fast as possible to pop the limb off and let it fall horizontally.

I'm sure other climbers do this too, in fact I know of two others who do.

[pete mctree]

I think many of us do. Be it deeper than usual sap cuts, or just gnawing away at a limb in a sort of random way, trying to reduce the area to cut.

[gf beranek]

For a climber it's a great way to trip a heavy limb without putting yourself in harms way. Because it's all done from the high side. Very little chance of getting hit by the butt of a heavy limb kicking back and breaking your leg.

Such a nice feature!

[Bermy]

For some big limbs I did a series of compression cuts, like five, then started top cuts staggered to fit between, the first one just enough to see the limb move, then come back to the second, (more if needed)..and as it went the compression cuts collapsed and it all dropped away very easily.

[gf beranek]

The Bender....

[Bermy]

So it has a name...!
Always a bit nervous to post with the big boys and the big trees in this forum, but hey, might as well jump in

[flushcut]

Well if you read his book... nudge nudge. JK. Try the CB you will like it. It has similar properties as a jump cut but maintains the limb orientation a little longer IMO.

[MasterBlaster]

Jump in anytime, Fiona!

[sierratree]

yep..jump in..........i've taken my knocks on the forum, also........but that what it's all about..........getting good info, discussions, and leaving the ego somewhere else.......

[gf beranek]

With enough undercuts, starting out under a limb and working back towards the crotch, you can completely lower, or bend, a heavy limb over. It can ease the dynamic impact of catching a limb in a rope. significantly. I've even lowered limbs down onto roofs with the bender. Saving on tearing shingles and ripping off rain gutters.

the cons of the method is, risk of getting the bar stuck if you're not quick on the draw when sawing the undercuts, Because you have to saw each undercut deep enough for it to close. Which makes the limb settle a little bit for each cut. And then there is the risk of having the tension wood fail and loosing the limb any way. In the latter case try to keep the undercuts spaced evenly apart to avoid creating too much tension in any given area.

And it is the reason why you want to start out on the limb and work inward where the greater leverage is. This method lowers the tension in the holding wood where it is the greatest anyway.

Make any sense?

[flushcut]

I used the bender this mourning to swing away a 6" limb away from a new second floor deck before I cut it loose. Works like a charm.

[gf beranek]

That it do. Trees whose limbs have stringy wood fiber the cut is very dependable.

[woodworkingboy]

"Bender" :thumbup:

[inbredJed]

Thanks for the indirect education boys. I've got to re-read Jerry's paragraph on the Bender. Forgot how it wrks. :|:

Gerry: I'm a residential arborist and, for my purposes, fiber pull don't matter a fig. Barberchairs, however, do. Here's what happened a month ago. Office complex with a HUGE :O , nasty, headleading Alder, wanted us to get it down. My foreman took one look at it and said, "aright Jed, I'm gonna go check out the rest of the job." :lol:

I thought, "No sweat. Jerr's Coos Bay." I pulled out my heavily woods-ported 440. ( I shld have used my 395, but I didn't bring it) and made the side cuts, and DEEP. Razor sharp chain, I revved up quite high, got about bar deep into the back, and THWAAACK!!! Darned thing STILL barber-chaired something dirty, and left me running (without my saw, though it didn't get smashed) for dear life.

Here's my question. Provided that fiber-pull isn't a concern: Why not just ream-in a super deep "undercut" (no diagonal, just a super deep horizontal "face-cut") and then trip it from the back. I'm thinking: worst-case scenario: you accidentally ream too deep, and then, end up with sort of a "reverse barber-chair". Just a bit slab sticking off the back of the stump, which wld seem to be no big deal.

Comments? Criticizims? Concerns?

[Bermy]

Thanks Gerry...never used it to 'bend' a branch but I see how it could.
I use it like a controlled snap cut, rather than just one undercut and the topcut, put several in to spread the dissapation of the tension and compression, so it collapses rather than goes...BAM!...helps reduce the spring on the remaining branch that I am sometimes standing on.

[gf beranek]

That's idea behind it, Bermy. Lots of ways to ease the pressure and tension forces we encounter. The bender is one. So much of what we learn comes from practical experience and problem solving on the job.

The forces of tension and pressure in a stem can be manipulated in our favor by our understanding of wood fiber, leverage and well learned cutting techniques. Every situation is different and our experience, or lack of, will define the outcome.

There is no simple explanation that can cover all the bases, but it all begins with a good understanding of how the forces of tension and pressure bear on a stem. Whether it be a limb, top or section of trunk wood. The only real difference with either is the scale of the forces we are dealing with. recognizing them and using the appropriate technique.

[flushcut]

Thanks for the indirect education boys. I've got to re-read Jerry's paragraph on the Bender. Forgot how it wrks. :|:

Gerry: I'm a residential arborist and, for my purposes, fiber pull don't matter a fig. Barberchairs, however, do. Here's what happened a month ago. Office complex with a HUGE :O , nasty, headleading Alder, wanted us to get it down. My foreman took one look at it and said, "aright Jed, I'm gonna go check out the rest of the job." :lol:

I thought, "No sweat. Jerr's Coos Bay." I pulled out my heavily woods-ported 440. ( I shld have used my 395, but I didn't bring it) and made the side cuts, and DEEP. Razor sharp chain, I revved up quite high, got about bar deep into the back, and THWAAACK!!! Darned thing STILL barber-chaired something dirty, and left me running (without my saw, though it didn't get smashed) for dear life.

Here's my question. Provided that fiber-pull isn't a concern: Why not just ream-in a super deep "undercut" (no diagonal, just a super deep horizontal "face-cut") and then trip it from the back. I'm thinking: worst-case scenario: you accidentally ream too deep, and then, end up with sort of a "reverse barber-chair". Just a bit slab sticking off the back of the stump, which wld seem to be no big deal.

Comments? Criticizims? Concerns?

Maybe you went too deep.

[inbredJed]

I don't know if that's possible Rajan. Seems like the deeper the better... I dunno...

[flushcut]

I would think if you went too deep it would act more like a conventional under cut and in need of boring the backcut. I think the physics of a CB is like having a holding strap perpendicular to the bar and the deeper your backcut gets the less wood there is to split. If that makes sense.

[CurSedVoyce]

Burnam mentions a boring cut earlier in this thread...
Here is a picture of one of the stumps in another thread
http://masterblasterhome.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=599&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1201034374
This is one of mine... also notice that Burnam may have skipped his face cut that he mentions in his version of the CB cut. I use a face cut as well when I can
35631

[flushcut]

The pic on top is that a face cut or the release cut?

[CurSedVoyce]

My bad .. second look I believe B skipped the face on that one. That would be the release. I need to clean my glasses. Good catch.

[CurSedVoyce]

Fixed. :D

[Burnham]

Right, both of you...no face on that one. I was sure I'd get pinched on that bowed over, snow-loaded silver fir.

Jed...our red alder is so prone to BC that sometimes there just is no way to avoid it. If the tree was big enough to bore, you might have had success...but it takes a pretty large alder to have that much working space.

For my money, if I can do it, I've had better luck with alder using my version of the Coos Bay. That would be a face cut, then use of the bar tip from each side to leave a full width hinge, then take out the center strip all in a rush to glory :D.

[inbredJed]

Thanks a ton for the images.

Yup: mine looked, when finished, a little narrower on the sides than the one of Burnham's in the snow, except that it was about 27" dbh, and--after the cut--had about a twelve foot slab running up the tree:O

Thanks B: Yeah, the thing was leaning so bad, and had such a heavy top, that I was scared to bore into it. I was afraid it wld uncork the moment I got the tip through the middle, but who knows?

What--if anything--do you guys say to my "reamed-face cut" idea. Did I lose people with that one, or can you interpret inbred?

[gf beranek]

Alders are notoriously bad. The wood is so clear and splits so darn easy. You maybe should have bound that tree, Jed. But in any case if deciding to use the coos bay you need to get the side cuts more than a third the way in, or just figure the more the better. Ideally until the strap left holding the tree,,,, fails to hold it.

People tend to be very nervous using the coos bay on a heavy head leaner for the first time. Rightfully so too. And I think it makes them feel overly anxious to release the tree prematurely. As long as the tree is standing,,,, keep cutting the sides. And..... in trees of size be sure to use a wedge to keep the cuts open. You really do not want the tree to shift over to any side. Because it can cause the tree to twist off the stump rather than break off of it.

Believe me, there is no single and sure solution to tripping all the head leaners a sawyer is going to encounter. Because of the high pressure and tension forces involved the stumps are always going to be more prone to failing in some manner or form before we can execute any cut the way we want. Either by twisting, splitting or pulling the roots. It is the nature of a head leaner to do so.

There are alternative methods to dealing with head leaners. As some members here have pointed out.

As for myself, I've reamed through the pressure side of some head leaners up to three quarters the way through and tripped them by severing the remaining tension wood. Just like the tree were a big limb. No opening cut about it. Pops the tree right off the stump very clean. However,, this is a risky method to use in anything but a hard leaner because there is no stump shot.

In other cases I have worked a face cut deep enough into the tree until the remaining tension wood folded and eased the tree down quite easily. No release cut about it. On good ground the method is a little bit safer, but it does take more time because you have to whittle the face in a little at a time and keep cleaning it out.

With either of these alternatives the method puts a sawyer beside the tree to execute the cuts. And on steep ground with a head leaner that could be very unsafe. And too, with either alternative the chance of getting the saw stuck is much higher,,, if you're not quick on the draw with your reaming or whittling . The CB on the other hand puts a sawyer on the high side to execute the cut and the chance of getting the saw stuck is much less.

You have to remember too that the conventional method of using a face and boring the back cut increases the amount of pressure and tension forces in the wood left holding a head leaner, and that in itself can bring on its own additional problems and risks.

In any case, more than anything else, our safety and success comes down to understanding the forces of leverage, tension and pressure and how it bears on the stems of a tree. With a thorough understanding of this we should be able to figure the appropriate action to take. Which at times means not doing anything at all.

[MasterBlaster]

You're supposed to be asleep!!! :|:

[gf beranek]

I can't sleep. Better get started on another project, I think.

[MasterBlaster]

I'm up at all hours during the night, myself.

[gf beranek]

What time do you get home from work?

[MasterBlaster]

It changes every day: today I'm 7-3.

[inbredJed]

Butch: Well done hangin' in there in the new Job.

Jer: I can't thank you enough for giving me such a thorough--and free!--tutorial. The thing that sucks about being a residential arborist, is that 98% of the time, we are in clear, smooth-sailing, highly precedented country, and then, WHAM! Some huge storm blows in, or something way bigger that we're able to handle crops up. Then, of course, is any young idiotic tree-guy ever going to have the common sense to walk away from it?:lol: Of course not. Instead, all too often, we end up sticking the saw where it don't belong, and then the Wednesday morning safety meeting rolls around. "O.k. boys, we had another accident. You're all in trouble, but we're going to keep things positive. What could we have done differently.... Blah, bla, blahh, blah, blah...."

I'll sock wedges into the sides hard next time, and cut-up the strip way thinner.

Can't thank you and Burnham enough for helping me steer clear of those embarrassing--if not tragic :(--Wednesday morning confessionals.