Mastering the Humbolt notch?

[JIML]

Any tips from the pros?

I have no problem aiming a tree with a conventional notch, cuts always line up close to perfect, If they are not they I make them perfect. no dutchmans.

Seems I get my flat cut in, then when I do my bottom angled cut, sh!t hits the fan, Not anywhere near where Im wanting to aim the thing. I don't have any trouble in small stuff but run into trouble when I get into 20" plus stuff. I usually get on corner to line up with my flat cut and the other is not near far enough into the tree. Saw im using is a 440 or a 660 with a 24" bar, if it matters.

No real reason to be good with it, a conventional will work, just like to be different :D

[Skwerl]

Try making your bottom cut first. And start shallow. You can always make it bigger.

[Burnham]

Just practice a bit more would be my advice, Jim. If you are generally successful with a conventional, I think you'll get the hang of a Humbolt easily enough.

You are most likely hitting the corner on your side, and missing on the far corner, right? If you are seeing a pattern where you always are coming up short on the far corner, then training yourself to change the angle of your bar to hit the correct point over there should just be a matter of time and practice.

The cutter who is too deep one time and too shallow the next, no pattern to the error, is the cutter that will have a bigger battle than you will to learn the proper technique. Just keep at it. Cut some high stumps when you're felling and practice one or two more Humbolts before you ALAP it.

Lots of fallers would agree with Skwerl, but not me. I don't think you can gun a decent face on the angled cut. That's just my way...give it a try if you want, no harm in doing it that way if it works for you.

[Skwerl]

And I will defer to the vastly superior logger man. Thanks Burnham. :)

[JIML]

Just practice a bit more would be my advice, Jim. If you are generally successful with a conventional, I think you'll get the hang of a Humbolt easily enough.

You are most likely hitting the corner on your side, and missing on the far corner, right? If you are seeing a pattern where you always are coming up short on the far corner, then training yourself to change the angle of your bar to hit the correct point over there should just be a matter of time and practice.

The cutter who is too deep one time and too shallow the next, no pattern to the error, is the cutter that will have a bigger battle than you will to learn the proper technique. Just keep at it. Cut some high stumps when you're felling and practice one or two more Humbolts before you ALAP it.

Lots of fallers would agree with Skwerl, but not me. I don't think you can gun a decent face on the angled cut. That's just my way...give it a try if you want, no harm in doing it that way if it works for you.



Yeah it is always short on the far side, away from me.

[Bodean]

Practice, try it every time.

[Blinky]

I have that same problem with humbolts, too short on the off side with big trees. I'm gonna try what you suggest Woods walking man. I was taught to start with the bottom cut but it's definitely harder to aim that way... if the saw gets off level just a little bit, I end up doctoring the notch.

[Old Monkey]

I am OK at Humboldts. Not great. It just takes practice and I don't think to do them as I am usually under time constraints.

[MasterBlaster]

I have absolutely no need for them. The occasional snipe, but not an HB.

But then again I'm not a logger.

[Bodean]

I don't know if it's just for loggers but is a way to lay the bole down flat
and smooth right from the stump without the pop jump and slide off the
stump of the conventional cut. Does that make sense?

I don't think it needs to be used all the time but sometimes it's better than not.

If you want to learn it, I'd use it everytime regardless.

[JIML]

I guess I just need to work on them more. I just want to get to where I am as comfortable with a humbolt as I am a conventional. Now If I got a tight squeeze with a fell, even if its just a stub I will use the conventional. Don't trust myself with the humbolt yet.

Hardest part is you can't see what your doing as well being you can't see into the notch without getting down and looking.



I cut these with a conventional, No way would I have used a humbolt. Too many things to hit, namely the line or the gas meter burried in there. Theres probably 15 trees burried in there I cut from the ground.

[Bodean]

After awhile you see the tree as a line drawing column
and you can gauge where the saw needs to be to match your corners.

[Bounce]

Nice line up!

[wiley_p]

Do Humboldts only, every chance you can. Also I've found that some folks when starting, have a easier time cutting them powerhead up. Be mindful of your tilt and roll on the bar, before you know it you'll be popping them in just as quick and accurate as you please.

[Stumper]

Jim, I've always found Humbolts harder FWIW. There is probably a reason that the conventional is conventional.(Like being easier to do). As everyone is saying-practice..... Or if you really don't need to use humbolts much then cut conventionals and cut a full snipe on the occasions wou need a gentle lay down.

[Reddog]

I tend to use it for felling down hill. That way you lose very little timber in the stump. Other than that, we cut hardwood so low on the stump you can't use it very often.
I have never had much trouble lining up the cuts. So sorry not much for tips or tricks from me.

[gf beranek]

Forest trees in good form, single stemmed and tall, there's definite and certain mechanical advantage to using the Humboldt:

1. Falling the tree uphill, absent of any crown, the butt of the tree will rest back on the stump. In this case the Humboldt helps keep the tree from shooting down the hill. The negetive slope of the diagonal, in effect, extends stump shot. In order for it to work out that way, at times, you may have to purposely cut the stump high to catch and hold the tree.

For the climber, the Humboldt cut, by the same virtue, can help keep the butt of a top from firing back over the cut,,,, if it were to hit another tree and stick or hold momentarily. If a top does that it will exert back pressure on the cut!! Something you really don't want to have happen, no matter. It's just plain bad practice to go ramming your tops into or through other trees period. Same goes for the faller.

2. The Humboldt cut applied to sidehill or downhill falling, the negetive slope can promote the butt of the tree to slip off the stump and reach the ground before the top. The tree will lay from the butt out to the top. Saving a particular valuable tree from shattering in a swale. There's some fine points that should be elaborated on, but it gets real in depth, and not all that necessary to know just to understand the underlying principal. The down-slope of the cut, like a hillside, promots things to slide, slip, fall off or roll down.

The particular tree or situation can void the mechanical effectiveness of the Humboldt and render your hopes of it working totally in vain.

Whether the Humboldt is really needed at certain times is highly debatable. Most fallers I know use the cut only as a matter of convienence. It's just what they are use to using. It's easy for them.

On the bad side,,, the Humboldt method leaves a higher stump and for that it's somewhat wasteful when you stop and look at a whole layout of stumps that would be lower if the conventional cut was used instead.

I'll add to that, while the issue of waste is a valid point, at the same time the timber compaines and log buyers don't appreciate having the diagonal or snipe coming in on the butt logs. They prefer all logs to be square on both ends. So while the Humboldt may keep the log buyer happy, the forester is out citing fallers for making high stumps at the same time. It's an issue, I believe, will never be resolved.

If you don't have any use for using the Humboldt why use it? Believe me, for the far majority of trees the conventional cut is all you'll ever need. If you get into tall single stemmed forest trees that in good form, then you'll find more reason and opportunity to use the Humboldt.

And gunning the undercut? Burnam says it right.

[JohnB]

Any tips from the pros?

I have no problem aiming a tree with a conventional notch, cuts always line up close to perfect, If they are not they I make them perfect. no dutchmans.

Seems I get my flat cut in, then when I do my bottom angled cut, sh!t hits the fan, Not anywhere near where Im wanting to aim the thing. I don't have any trouble in small stuff but run into trouble when I get into 20" plus stuff. I usually get on corner to line up with my flat cut and the other is not near far enough into the tree. Saw im using is a 440 or a 660 with a 24" bar, if it matters.

No real reason to be good with it, a conventional will work, just like to be different :D

I know exactly what you mean Jim. I often use a gap with the Humbolt and bust the wood out with an axe. Using the gap seems to be alot easier for me than to match the corners up perfectly. If I'm not on flat ground matching the corners is harder for me. Sounds like we both need to practice. As far as using it tight spots, everywhere is a tight spot in one way or another so be confident! That's what I do.

[rumination]

That was a great post Jerry, thanks.

The only time I usually ever use a humboldt is when taking out a top in a tight canopy where the top may encounter obstacles on the way down.

[pantheraba]

1. Falling the tree uphill, absent of any crown, the butt of the tree will rest back on the stump. In this case the Humboldt helps keep the tree from shooting down the hill. The negetive slope of the diagonal, in effect, extends stump shot. In order for it to work out that way, at times, you may have to purposely cut the stump high to catch and hold the tree.

Just thinking about felling a tree up a steep slope gives me the willies (sorry SOTC). Depending on the stump to hold the tree is scary. If the tree chooses to go to either side of the stump then the faller has to scamper to the opposite side?

And if the tree takes a diagonal tack couldn’t it sweep/pivot around to the other side of the stump?

And if it hit a hump it could bounce and shoot back over the stump?

Maybe I’m just paranoid....it seems like felling uphill can be particularly dangerous for the faller.

[Dave Shepard]

I've been watching "Old Growth.." (which is unbelieveable Jerry:thumbup: ) and it looks like the lay has a lot to do with it. Most of the trees just flopped down and stayed put like a good dog.:lol: Watching it live really puts all that I have read in Fundamentals into perspective. I'd hate to think what would happen to all those trees if you flopped'em down hill. Not so good unless you make matches out of them.


Dave

[gf beranek]

Go back and watch the tree in "Wager's" It rolled off the stump when it hit the bay clump and Douglas firs, and then slid down their stems, like a slide, to the sidehill,,,, where 3 of the crew were standing and watching. Wrong place to be. They should have known better.

You can't see them in the video, but they had to turn and run or get squashed by the tree.

With the remote, pause and click one frame at a time and you can see how it all happened.

[Dave Shepard]

I just got as far as Wager's when I had to call it quits last night, got to sleep sometime.:) Looks like it was a close call. What kinds of things influence a tree to stay put, or to take off? I can see the interference from the other trees can be a big problem. How about the contour of the ground in the lay? It would seem that you want the butt to hit first, and not bounce, otherwise it could jump up and over the stump and take off. I am also guessing a hump in the lay could cause the butt to come up as well, causing a loss of control. As well as breaking out the top. Does this sound about right? Thanks.


Dave

[Al Smith]

This cut,much like a bore cut is seldom used around here,if ever. Flat land ya know.

I do see the advantage though if are trying to lay the fall up hill .I don't imagine running for your life being chased by a tree sliding down hill would be a fun thing to do.:O

Oh,directional falling. It may sound odd to those who fall trees for a living but I on occasion use gunning sticks.

[pantheraba]

This is a lllooonnngggg download, from Graeme McMahon's site...39M, over 7 minutes to download, but good quality. It has a BIG Humboldt in it that they used on a big euc.

Why did he cut the front off the edge of the spar that would be closing onto the Humboldt (just before he made the back cut)?

http://www.sherbrooketreeservice.com/files/20070608Grants-Web.mov

[Skwerl]

Without looking, I'd say that he made the snipe cut in order to allow the falling tree to continue in a straight path with less liklihood of being forced to twist or kick off to one side.

[JIML]

Yeah, I think thats what he did in the video, kinda different. No way am I going to question that guys work though!

[gf beranek]

That looked like a pretty sound tree. Makes me wonder why it was coming down. The tree ferns were pretty.

That little scarf Graeme took of the butt of the tree, but the shot didn't last long enought to see it completed, well it is one way of squaring the edge for the tree to meet the stump, instead of a illregular protrusion.

You got to use your imagination and visualize the two edges meeting. A good square edge or .....

Often debatable whether it's really needed or not, especially in a wide open layout, but for the guy doing the work.... it's his call!

[MasterBlaster]

Sometimes doing it just makes me feel better. :drink:

[tblough]

Here's an idea from an utter newbie, so take if for what it's worth.

First, make your flat cut using the saw sights. then stick a strip of cardboard (6" wide, by 3' long or so) in the cut, all the way to the back so that it sticks out on the far side. This is going to be a "sight aid".

Following Burnham's recommendation, line up and dog in on the near side, and then sight the tip of the bar to line up with the edge of the cardboard which is sticking out on the far side of the tree. Now when you swing the saw through, your cuts should line up perfectly on the far side.

I wish I had a saw and a tree to try this. Anyone game?

[Stumper]

Tsk tsk Tom, i am a true trad faller and eschew sights. Instinctive all the way man!










For all those who are going WTH? There is ongoing nitpicking on traditional archery forums from those who want to feel superior for not using sights on their bows compared to those who ridicule "instinctive shooters" for their lack of precision etc,etc, Typical human foolishness. FWIW I don't use sights on my bows but don't think that using them is morally inferior. I do use the sights on a saw occassionally...but on small trees it is pretty easy to line things up without them. And Tom's idea would likely prove very helpful to a beginner.

[MasterBlaster]

Use the Force, Luke. :drink:

[GASoline71]

When I was first learning the Humboldt I couldn't get my cuts to line up. I am better at it now. Just when you think you have enough angle in your bar for the undercut to match the other side on the gunning cut... tip the bar a little more, and check that your bar tip is not hanging low... trust me... it helps.

Gary

[JIML]

I cut one stub today, not big but I got my cuts to line up good. Cut my angled cut first then the flat one. Lined up good first try. 12" locust maybe. I may try doing my angled cut first, when I was learning the conventional I would do the angle first then the flat. Now its a pain in the arse to do it that way cause the piece of wood ends up sitting on the bar when the cuts finished.

[Jamin Mayer]

Here's an idea from an utter newbie, so take if for what it's worth.

First, make your flat cut using the saw sights. then stick a strip of cardboard (6" wide, by 3' long or so) in the cut, all the way to the back so that it sticks out on the far side. This is going to be a "sight aid".

Following Burnham's recommendation, line up and dog in on the near side, and then sight the tip of the bar to line up with the edge of the cardboard which is sticking out on the far side of the tree. Now when you swing the saw through, your cuts should line up perfectly on the far side.

I wish I had a saw and a tree to try this. Anyone game?
:what:
:?
I can't visualize what you wrote. But, if you could get it on video, you could post that too.

[Jamin Mayer]

I may try doing my angled cut first, when I was learning the conventional I would do the angle first then the flat. Now its a pain in the arse to do it that way cause the piece of wood ends up sitting on the bar when the cuts finished.

I do the angled cut first in a conventional notch all the time. If the wood is big I just use a wedge to prevent the bar being pinched when I do my flat cut.

The best advantage of doing your angled cut first (for the conventional notch) is the fact that you can see through your angled cut to watch the tip of your bar. This way you don't bypass your angled cut and you make a perfect notch 9 times out of 10.

Anyway, this thread is about the Humboldt...Sorry.

[sotc]

if i want to check i do kinda like tom, ill start my cut, set the brake and go put my finger or a stick in the far corner then look down the plane of the bar to see if it intersects the corner.

[Cedarkerf]

The way I learned was to make the gunning cut first. Had a hard time getting the angle right for the lower cut. Made some lower cuts with the saw paralel to the gunning cut at the botum of the cut. Gives you a chance to visualize the angles you need when you just rotate on the dawgs. Prolly not explained very well.

[GASoline71]

You explained it pretty well Brian... I always do the gunning cut first. It wouldn't be called a "gunning cut" if you did it second...

Another reason to have big dogs on fallin' saws... it's where they really come in to play... "dog in" and rotate the saw on an axis (maybe pivot point would be better to explain) from one "corner" to the other. keep your tip up on that undercut...

Gary

[Angus]

I could be completely wrong here, but I thought the Humbolt is used when the size of the remaining wedge is quite heavy. With the lower cut being on the angle, once the wedge has fallen it tends to just slide out enough to grab, or if lucky - onto the ground.
Are there any other reasons for use the Humbolt?

[MasterBlaster]

To make a flat butt cut, important on the big logs for millage.

[squisher]

I think it's mainly for production falling, atleast as I've known it. You cut a humboldt and you cheat on your step and keep it small and you end up with a flush flat but which doesn't need to have a snipe cut off of it. You're supposed to leave a two inch 'step' but any buckerman I've ever worked with would cry bloody murder if he had to nock the snipe off every butt. The pie sliding out easier is a added bonus for sure.

[Dave Shepard]

Seems like it is a very important cut for keeping a tree on a steep hill. Wouldn't a conventional cut provide a "ramp" to send the tree over the stump? Burnham, Jerry?


Dave

[Angus]

To make a flat butt cut, important on the big logs for millage.


You cut a humboldt and you cheat on your step and keep it small and you end up with a flush flat but which doesn't need to have a snipe cut off of it

doh! of course! I was told about this just recently - I'd never made the connection!
thanks.

[squisher]

Seems like it is a very important cut for keeping a tree on a steep hill. Wouldn't a conventional cut provide a "ramp" to send the tree over the stump? Burnham, Jerry?


Dave

Certainly, but you only fall uphill around here if you absolutely have to. 90% of it you lay crossways on the hill (remember I was a yarder guy so there was always a hill) and the humboldt is used for the flat butt.

[gf beranek]

Seems like it is a very important cut for keeping a tree on a steep hill. Wouldn't a conventional cut provide a "ramp" to send the tree over the stump? Burnham, Jerry?


DaveYes, it can in deed do that, but not everytime.

Squish is right about laying the trees side hill. It's too much work climbing up and down the hill to limb and buck every tree you cut. Of course on the edge of waterways you don't always have that option.

[xtremetrees]

I read on some other tree site how the humbolt notch has 2 advantages when working aloft. 1.) It decreases spar movement and 2.) It allow for butt of log placement closer to the stump.
So, I began trying it aloft 4 or 5 yrs ago and was hooked. I used it almost exclusively for a while I did find it easier to cut meaning I didn't have to cut into the top of my notch by raising my arms high, I could just cut underneath and the notch is done. Honestly thou I'm not sure about the humbolt decreasing spar/stubb movement. I would say it should be used when your top may foul in adjecent tree and come back on ya like Rumi says. I do like the idea of not haveing to lift my arms higher than my head when working aloft as this can quickly lead to fatigue over a days worth of cutting err something like that. On lateral limbs I almost always cut humbolt just because the ease of it.

[Burnham]

Seems like it is a very important cut for keeping a tree on a steep hill. Wouldn't a conventional cut provide a "ramp" to send the tree over the stump? Burnham, Jerry?


Dave

Either way you have a ramp, Dave. With a conventional it's on the end of the log and with a humbolt it's on the stump. It's my personal opinion that the humbolt's ramp (on the stump) is more likely to cause you grief than the conventional's ramp (on the log), but I'm sure that's open for disagreement.

So in either case you want to encorporate stump shot into your felling cuts by placing the back cut some higher than the intersection of the two face cuts. Squish was talking about shading this...trying to end up with a flush butt without having to trim.

Understandable why fallers would chose to, but doing so involves more risk to the cutter on every single tree.

[Dave Shepard]

Thanks Jerry and Burnham. It's great to be able to discuss this stuff here, it really helps to get an understanding of the different techniques.


Dave

[squisher]

I will add that what I mentioned about leaving a small step so as to keep a flat butt is definetly not recommended and around here you can get fined for it. I could see no reason to be doing this or trying to do this in residential treework. And I'm in no way recommending that people do this.

I beleive I've covered my ass sufficiently now.:D

[sotc]

no the wide parts still hanging out :D
on topic, i typically use which ever is most convient to my current position

[squisher]

Heh Willie that's kind of like me too, I use whichever finger is most convenient in my current position :birdman:










:P :lol:

[sotc]

:D

[Wagnaw]

Also I've found that some folks when starting, have a easier time cutting them powerhead up.

Yeah, I like to start the cut powerhead up, cutting with the top of the bar, then flip the saw to cut with the bottom. I dunno... works for me.