So many saddles

[NickfromWI]

There are so many saddles to choose from nowadays. Buckingham has a couple goodies, new tribe's are popular, then you start adding the butterfly II, treemotion, tree flex, now the sequoia...

How's a person to choose?

I wish we could have a true trial run on one. What if we just had $$ for the treehouse to buy like 6 saddles, then people could rent them out for $50 or so...just to try them each and see what they would like. That would be cool!

Just an idee-er

love
nick

[MasterBlaster]

The logistics of that would be overwhelming. But a cool idea, nonetheless.

I'm thinking about getting a Master, myself.

[Stumper]

Unfortunately, not only would we need multiple models but also various sizes...but if you leave out the midgets and the monsters(moi) most of you o guys could swap around mediums (and larges depending on the maker).
Butch I predict that you would like a Buckingham Master...with an added bridge. Really the only thing to DISLIKE about that saddle design is the difficulty in keeping it up and you are already accustomed to using suspenders.

[Wagnaw]

Hey MB, If you've been climbing on the weaver sliding D, you probably are gonna want to stay with some sort of saddle with the sliding bridge. I learned on the saddle you have, and I haven't been able to find anything that climbs any better. The only reason I haven't stuck with my Ol' weaver is the padding on the leg straps.

Sorry to butt-in... just a little comment.

[MasterBlaster]

Actually, I started out on a four dee saddle. In my old age I think I wanna try a fixed bridge saddle again.

[Stumper]

THIS gives you the best of both worlds. On caveat-The center D on a MasterII isn't the most comfy place to hang from ( at least for me) The rest of the attachement points are more carabiner friendly than rope snap.

[Wagnaw]

Then check out Buckingham's Pinnacle Deluxe saddle, the "Deluxe" mean a little extra cash, but you get an extra inch of padding.

[MasterBlaster]

That's a cool fix, Justin.

[Wagnaw]

Hey Stumper, Have you tried hooking it up to the two lowest attachment points? It's way for comfortable and gives you a little lower center of gravity.

[NickfromWI]

The logistics of that would be overwhelming.....

Yeah..we'd need a student intern. The task would be to organize the collection/raising of a couple thousand to buy small/med/large of all the saddles, then coordinate the delivery of saddles to people.

You know, I sorta think it'd be worth the manufacturers to donate a couple saddles to us. It might get people in one of their saddles that they never would've tried on, or better yet, it might prevent someone from buying a $addle, then talking $#!+ about it...not because it's bad, but merely because it didn't fit them.

I'm already too busy. Anybody else interested?

MB, I have a bridge like stumper shows. Sometimes I clip in to the top clip in point, but usually to the bridge. I have my bridge set at the lower clip in points like wagnaw suggests.

love
nick

[Frans]

I think it would be alot easier to just participate in a 'gear review' web site such as Baileysonline.com or Treeclimber.com

[NickfromWI]

But the gear review can't tell you the most important thing....how does it fit.

[Frans]

true

[Stumper]

Wagnaw, Yes I did try the bridge in the lower attachment points.. in fact I tried it in every combination of attachment points. I didn't like it in the lower ones. Or the uppers. I settled where it felt best for me. This kind of illuistrates why people differ in their opinions about saddles and why the Master is such a versatile saddle-we are all different.

[Bodean]

Both myself (butterfly 2) and my coworker (glide) have a tough time keeping the saddles from slipping.

Especially with big saws, I think suspenders may be the key.

[Frans]

whenever someone asks me what saddle to buy or what is the best I always tell them I dont know. Try it out then make your decision

[RIVERRAT]

The logistics of that would be overwhelming. But a cool idea, nonetheless.

I'm thinking about getting a Master, myself. Butch, you can go both ways with the Buckingham Versatile. Meaning, you can make your climb line attachment slide or roll or you can have a fixed point with options on where clip in. IF you should ever decide to step outside the box & get all funky & use a split tail rig.

Just a note. If Buckingham would line the inside of of their saddles with ruff out leather as an option I would do it. These new hyper light saddles with nylon belts have the annoying tendency to twist on your torso.
My old leather lined belts never did this.

[NickfromWI]

Riverrat, send me your saddle and I'll sew a piece of leather on it for you!!!

I think you're on to something, though. I've only climbed on leather saddles a couple times...but not enough to say I know anything about them. I've always climbed on nylon saddles and I've always experienced saddle twist and just assumed that was the way it was and always would be....


Hmmmm

love
nick

[RIVERRAT]

Nick I may send you my Versatile & have you do that.

[RIVERRAT]

Both myself (butterfly 2) and my coworker (glide) have a tough time keeping the saddles from slipping.

Especially with big saws, I think suspenders may be the key. Suspenders yes, maybe. But saddle makers need to wake up & make use of some materials that are readily available & start lining the inside of the belts with it.

The belt sliding up & down & around ones body is completely unacceptable. I spoke of this in my write up at New Tribe.

The only reason not much is said about it is few of the up & comers have experienced anything different. There are many materials out there used on backpacks & other high wear outdoor stuff that could change this.

[NickfromWI]

Before you do it, I have to check. My sewing machine kicks ass...but I have to see if it can fit the saddle AND a reasonably strong piece of leather under the feed-dogs.

That would be cool if it works!

love
nick

[wiley_p]

I got to try the Sequoia on today at Wespur, it is really comfortable. I wanted to take it to try out, but Sean said no way it was a sample only. I think that was code for "I'm using it this weekend" It looks like it would be great for srt. He says the will have them to sell by the end of Jan.

[top hopper]

Butch, my experience with the master...

its a ball biter---- BIG TIME!

But then again, I AM Romanian

[Bodean]

My Weaver was pretty comfy at times.

Though I do miss the leather,
there is something to be said about the leather's support.

[MasterBlaster]

But then again, I AM Romanian


What, like a vampire? :/:

[brendonv]

Butch, my experience with the master...

its a ball biter---- BIG TIME!

But then again, I AM Romanian

Thats why I bought a new tribe. I could not feel them by the end of the day.

[top hopper]

What, like a vampire? :/:

Long live Vlad the Impailer!

[Stumper]

Brendon, Top and others with small, saddle munchable 'nads. One of the things that a lot of guys don't know(maybe you guys do) is that almost any saddle will fit the same guy differently if it is adjusted differently. Most climbers start out with a buckle-on saddle of some sort that they cinch down tightly(we don't want to fall out) Frequently loosening leg loops,adjusting their keeper straps and moving their position will create a totally different feel with a saddle compared to shortening and tightening them. Likewise where you cinch up the waist belt changes everything..........for example the Petzl Navaho squishes my innards something awful if I put the waist where I would cinch the waist on a Weaver-or even on my New Tribe. If I drop the Navaho waist belt down low on my hips it is MUCH more comfy yet still holds me more upright than any other saddle I've ever used. (I am amazed that any one truly loves the Navaho but some do). A jewelcrushing Weaver1036 changes into an almost comfortable saddle simply by loosening the leg loops and throwing slack in the keepers. The Master II seldom has caused me any pain so long as I didnt hang on the center D and left the legstraps low and loose. When I got my second NewTribe I was shocked on the first climb to find it nipping me...I slacked the loop retainers and everything went back to comfort. Really a person needs several climbs on a saddle with differing adjustments to wring it out. I fear a lot of guys never try any changes and dismiss a saddle based upon how it felt in the single mode they used it --whether once or 400 times.

[NickfromWI]

I got my nuts crunched MANY times during the first year I wore my master II. I was wearing it like a rock climbing harness. Tight around the waist and high and snug around the thighs.

Once I loosened the keeper straps on the back of the leg straps, it was smooth sailing.

love
nick

[treetx]

I wish we could have a true trial run on one. What if we just had $$ for the treehouse to buy like 6 saddles, then people could rent them out for $50 or so...just to try them each and see what they would like. That would be cool!


Freeworker and Freetree both offer trials.

Never tried it. The BflyII rocks. I have a Bfly I and II ....can't wait for the Sequoia.

[JonnyHart]

I figure I got a few years left in my traverse. Next saddle on the list is the dragonfly.
Butch, I don't think you will like the master if you intend to tie in to the fixed D. I got one you can have if you want it.

[Frans]

I have noticed that over time the little elastic straps holding the leg straps get blown out or start slipping through the plastic keepers.
With the leather leg strap adjusters this would never happen...










shhhh don't tell, but Petzl told me the release date on the sequoia has been bumped up to maybe the end of jan. and the price has jumped to about what the treeflex is. -supposed to be confidential information-
:wall:

[treetx]

Yeah, I had to stitch the elastic ;)

Price bump to that of the treeflex......no thanks.....'specially not for a 1st generation saddle.

Must be tough for European manufacturers since the dollar doesn't have much value abroad these days. (just wait until inflation starts in 08 - then it will lose value here too)

[MasterBlaster]

Butch, I don't think you will like the master if you intend to tie in to the fixed D. I got one you can have if you want it.


What is wrong with the fixed dee? Positioned odd, to where you don't hang right?

And I guess you're a large?

I'll probably rig a bridge.

[Stumper]

Butch, Yeah the fixed D on a Master is not unusable but for most guys it isn't particularly comfy balance wise. I use it for SRT ascents and for double crotching sometimes. Buck sizing is smaller than Weaver. You could probably wear either a large or an XL comfortably.

[MasterBlaster]

Is it too high or too low?

[Stumper]

Too high -IMO. Of course it might feel better if I wore the waist belt lower or something but I wear it where it feels right and works great with the added bridge (or clipping into the soft attachment points). I think the idea was to stick it up where it would hold a climber upright but be out of the way of the other attachment points that an "advanced" climber would likely use. The Master III didn't even have a center D-just another soft attachment in that position.

[top hopper]

To me the center d also seemed to high. Equivalent to hanging from your belt.

Butch- Go with a New Tribe. Although the d does move some its not much.

Cheaper too.

[MasterBlaster]

Most of the reason I'm looking at the Master is becuase of the good suspenders that I can get for them.

The new tribe "suspender" looks like it won't cut the cheese.

[top hopper]

They are a little odd-

Hey I sent a pair of new tribe suspenders to you a couple years back.

Being that New tribes are custom made upon order (if you order right from new tribe) I bet they could fab any type of suspenders onto that you'd like. Its worth looking into.

[NickfromWI]

In my experience, they will gladly make what you want and the more detail you give them, the better they'll make it.

love
nick

[Wagnaw]

MB, If you like the way that the weaver holds you, I would go with a new Buckingham pinnacle Saddle. Its supposed to be way comfortable, and I think it would fit your climbing style with the tautline and all. My dad used to say that he wishes he never switched from a pinnacle to a master, and he climbs with a tautline like you. Also, if you started using a split tail, then you could do that walk-thru thing with the pinnacle too, but then put the two dees together when you're working around normally.

[MasterBlaster]

Cool, I'll keep that in mind.


In my experience, they will gladly make what you want and the more detail you give them, the better they'll make it.

love
nick

[sotc]

ill go pick it up and try it out for you:)

[brendonv]

The New Tribe is a beautiful thing, trust me.

[Frans]

New Tribe saddle is one of the best saddles I have owned. The BryDan is also one of the best.

Best to try out the saddles before making any kind of serious decisions

[Stumper]

the New Tribe is indeed a beautiful thing...but it doesn't suit everyone's climbing style. I do not recall ever hearing anyone call a New Tribe uncomfortable.
I always wanted to try a Bry-dan. They seem to be somewhat less common than golden egg laying geese in areas outside of California.

[top hopper]

I send mine to Butch for a trial run, but I dont think it'd fit him real well. :D

[MasterBlaster]

Hardy har har!

[top hopper]

Hahahaha- that wasn't necessarily a jab at you. But I'm willing to bet you' re nowhere near a 30 inch waistline.

[MasterBlaster]

Nope. 36" here.

[wiley_p]

Butch, that new Petzl saddle is super comfortable. I'm working on getting one to try in the tree. The adjustments are nice and it fits a wide range in the medium size. I do wonder how fast the little, tiny, phillips head screw will strip out on the rings for the bridge.

[MasterBlaster]

I had the Bod 2 or whatever it was. I didn't like it at all and sent it back.

[wiley_p]

It can't even be compared to the earlier , nut crushing, torture devices the sick pups called saddles in the past. Way better, in many ways lots better for some aspects of work than my Newtribe.

[Burnham]

Has anyone looked at the Petzl Variobelt? It's a different model from the Vario... heavier-duty and more padding. You can get a add-on bridge thingy for it. The saddle costs $209 and the setup for floating D bridge is $69 from Wesspur.

http://wesspur.com/Saddles/petzl-saddles-harnesses.html

http://wesspur.com/images/saddles/c92100_variobelt_sidestraps.gif

[Bounce]

I've tried the Variobelt and also the new Sequoia. I think the Sequoia is much better. The bridge can be set to different lengths (or even removed and replaced with one made by Nick if you want it custom). The webbing between the belt and the leg loops was lengthened a bit on the Sequoia to keep it from crushing your nuts so bad (still not quite long enough though IMO). I hung in the Sequoia for approx 1/2 hour and did not get numb feet, whereas I did in the Variobelt. Also, you have to buy a separate add-on product called the Sidestraps to make the Variobelt into a floating d. The Sequoia comes as a floating d standard, no extra product/money required.

I'm not sure if I should mention this, but I actually work for Wesspur (although I post here for my own benefit on my own time) and have a sample from Petzl sitting right next to me. If anybody has any questions, I'd be happy to answer as best I can. The same goes for any other product.

[Burnham]

Good feedback, Bounce. I do note though that the cost of the Sidestraps added to the Variobelt still comes in cheaper than the Sequoia...I think.

I understand there are two slightly different versions of the Sequoia, one for trad climbing and one for SRT and trad. What are the differences?

[Bounce]

The Sequoia will sell for approx $300, compared to about $280 for the Variobelt with the Sidestraps. The reason I think the Sequoia floating bridge is better is that is doesn't interfere with the operation of the flipline d-rings. The Sidestraps actually attach to the d's, thereby reducing the space inside the d's and potentially causing problems for the flipline snap.

The only difference between the Sequoia and the Sequioa SRT is that the SRT has a steel friction buckle in the center of the back support so you can add on a chest harness (probably the Torse for use with the Croll chest ascender). Other than that, they are exactly the same.

[Burnham]

The Sequoia will sell for approx $300, compared to about $280 for the Variobelt with the Sidestraps. The reason I think the Sequoia floating bridge is better is that is doesn't interfere with the operation of the flipline d-rings. The Sidestraps actually attach to the d's, thereby reducing the space inside the d's and potentially causing problems for the flipline snap.

The only difference between the Sequoia and the Sequioa SRT is that the SRT has a steel friction buckle in the center of the back support so you can add on a chest harness (probably the Torse for use with the Croll chest ascender). Other than that, they are exactly the same.

Again, great info.

Doesn't the SRT model have a seperate waist level attachment point, aside from the bridge?

[Bounce]

It sure does. It's really just a slot in the webbing where the leg loops join the belt where a carabiner can be jammed in. Although I've only seen the SRT model so far, I believe the standard Sequoia also has this attachment point.

[Burnham]

Hmmm. That arrangement sounds kinda hokey.

Thanks, Bounce.

[Bounce]

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that they intended for the floating bridge to be the main attachment point, and only decided to add the fixed attachment point as an afterthought. I wouldn't recommend this unless you like a floating d.

[Frans]

Bounce, you info. is truly 'hot off the press'. We had the Petzl rep. here and he just had one saddle with him.

Thank you for talking about the details so clearly.

[MasterBlaster]

I concur! Thanks Bounce!!!

[Stumper]

Yes. Thank you Bounce. I hope that WesSpur is as nice an outfit to work for as they are to deal with. I LOVE dealing with WesSpur.

[NickfromWI]

Does Bounce work for Wesspur?

[rumination]

Yes, he has professed to doing so.

[pantheraba]

.......I'm not sure if I should mention this, but I actually work for Wesspur (although I post here for my own benefit on my own time) and have a sample from Petzl sitting right next to me. If anybody has any questions, I'd be happy to answer as best I can. The same goes for any other product.

Nick, you gotta read the whole thread....and PAY attention. Maybe Carl can help you with "reading comprehension". :P

[squisher]

Heh that's cool, Wesspur is where I buy all of my arb gear from. I'm the neurotic Fisher Tree Service guy who phones and bugs you guys whenever one box shows up a day before the other one.:D

Good prices, great service, and no I'm not affiliated in anyway whatsoever.:thumbup:

[brendonv]

Wesspur rocks!

I have a list of 4 items I am planning on getting, Sherrill Tree is $47 more expensive than Wesspur, for the exact same stuff.

I try to give all my business to Wesspur, they treat me like a person, not a number.

[MasterBlaster]

Wesspur trumps Sherrill.

[JonnyHart]

What is wrong with the fixed dee? Positioned odd, to where you don't hang right?

And I guess you're a large?

I'll probably rig a bridge.
Yeah, the fixed D is too high, and your weight rests on you waist more than your legs or butt. I spent 3 years climbing on it though. It's a Master, not a Master II or III, meaning it has 3 spots to tie into, not 5 or 7. The tie ins on the legs that you see on the master II are not there. The Ds are the real small ones too.
Yes, the belt is a large and I've always been between 34 and 36 waist. It fits but the buckles gotta be snugged almost completely. It would work well with suspenders probably.
If you want it it's yours. It's just been sitting in a locker in my shed for the past 3 years. Still perfectly safe, so I see no reason to toss it.

[Frans]

... they treat me like a person, not a number.

Yer number 809, but that will change depending on your posting frequency 8)

[Old Monkey]

Hey Bounce, does the Sequoia have attachment points for suspenders?

[Tom_Scheller]

I hope the Top Croll would fit. Wouldn't that be sweet.

TS

[Bounce]

HA! I think I've talked to about half you guys on the phone before. My real name is Sean, and I'm the guy here that gets to answer all the technical questions about the gear. It's a pretty cool job to have (because I get to play with all the new stuff) and it's an AWESOME place to work. I'm glad to hear you guys have noticed our effort. We try pretty hard. Enough about that though; this isn't about Wesspur, it's about GEAR! I don't want to turn this into an advertisement.

The Sequoia SRT does indeed have an attachment point on the back and on the front where you can add on suspenders. 2 important points though: (1) this does not make the saddle rated for fall arrest, so no using this while working in the bucket, and (2) I think Petzl had the Torse chest harness in mind when they designed this feature. It's a safe assumption that Petzl designed the Sequoia SRT with the Single Rope Technique in mind, I believe they wanted it to work with the Croll chest ascender, which is what the Torse is really for. The standard Sequoia (not the SRT) is not compatible with any upper body harness.

The Top chest harness is supposed to be only for the Navaho Sit harness, but it's possible that it would fit the Sequioa as well. I'll try that out today and let you know.

[FJR]

Thanks for all the info you have provided Bounce, you have been a great help and cleared a few questions in my head as well.

[pantheraba]

HA! I think I've talked to about half you guys on the phone before. My real name is Sean, and I'm the guy here that gets to answer all the technical questions about the gear.

Hey, Sean, thanks for helping out. I have talked to you several times and do appreciate your input and suggestions...you are an asset for Wesspur.

[Bounce]

Thanks Gary. I remember talking to you in 2005 (? - a while ago anyway) when you were getting started, and kept track of your homemade log arch project on the old Treehouse. I'm currently trying to make my own based on your design.

It turns out that the Top chest harness will indeed work with the Sequoia SRT. I didn't think it would since the Top is supposed to be for the Navaho Sit only, but it sure will. I would definitely recommend the Top harness over any of the others because it has nice comfy padding over the shoulders.

[Burnham]

It seems more than odd to me that Petzl thinks that it's logical to designate a saddle as "SRT specific" when the primary attachment point is a floating D bridge. I find that efficient SRT requires a fixed, low mounting point. No way would I go with the Sequoia if SRT was something I expected to be doing with any regularity.

Even if the poor secondary mounting point works, you'd still have the bridge loose and floppy, getting in the way and hanging up your ascenders and tethers.

I'd have to try one to make a final decision, for sure, but based on the great descriptions Sean has shared, I'd give it a thumbs down for SRT. Heck, it won't even accept my Petzl Secur chest harness for mounting my Croll.

Trad DdRT climbing, it might be wonderful for. No reason to pay $20 for that one extra buckle, though.

[Stumper]

Burnham. I don't know how much differece ther is in the Secur and the Torse -I seem to recall thinking that they looked very similar. Oddly I have never noticed a need for a particularly low attachment point for SRT....though I have found a floating bridge arrangement doth suck during split-tail DdRT ascent.

[pantheraba]

Sean, that would have been a different Gary...or was that Tblough?

I remember the log arch project, too, but it was not me that planned it.

[Burnham]

Justin, I believe the Secur is designed to girth hitch into a loop or ring on the rear of the saddle, while the Torse threads into a mounted buckle. Out in front they are identicle, methinks.

On your other point, it just goes to prove again that different strokes suit different folks. There are so many ways to skin the SRT cat that one needs to narrow THAT down before making broad statements as I did.

[Stumper]

Burnham I own a Secur and have fabbed my own copies but I never have girth hitched it in the rear. I decided that I wanted to make it easy to remove and or switch between saddles so I just threaded it around a biner which I can clip into the saddle's loop or ring...or if a saddle has neither you could throw a short sling around the belt and clip to that.

BTW, I do understand why On Rope mentions the importance of a low attachemnt point-if your waist/chest attachment is riding too high you wind up with too short of a step in each cycle...but I'm tall, and have long arms and prefer a modified Frog system (Tree Frog) or fall back to a very basic Texas system. In my own experience I haven't had to give the central attachment a second thought-I always seem to wind up with a usable step in each cycle.

[sotc]

yes that was tom (tblough) that built that sweet log arch. he still checks in from china on occasion

[Bounce]

My mistake Gary - I often wonder how I can fit my entire foot into my mouth all at once.

The new Sequoia will indeed work with both the Secur and Torse chest harnesses as well as the Top.