Stihl saw chain question re MS200T

[Burnham]

I want to know the opinions held by users of two different Stihl saw chains that are available for the MS200...Picco Micro (PM1) and Picco Micro Comfort 3 (PMC3).

PM1 is labeled as having an increased potential for kickback. PMC3 is labeled a low kickback chain. My experience with other low kickback chains has been less than sterling, in the past. But the Stihl website claims that PMC3 is faster cutting, smoother, and better for bore cuts that PM1.

What do y'all think, or know for that matter?

[Mr. Sir]

I've never used the PMC3 chain, but I agree that all of the so-called "low kickback" chains are poor performers in the field. Like many other safety devices, they reduce productivity and are made to protect ignorant users from themselves.

[Skwerl]

Burnham, you might be confused. The 63-PM1 is the picco micro safety chain with the triple humps on the tie straps. The 63-PM is the picco micro non-safety chain with normal tie straps.
The 63-PMC3 is the newest style from Stihl. It does not look like safety chain but supposedly is. I have not used it in that size yet.

I have used the full size 3/8 (33RSC3) and I cannot visually distinguish it from the regular 33RS non-safety chain. The 33RSC3 is just as fast and slightly smoother than 33RS.

[JIML]

I use the 63pm but I bought some oregon 91vx i think? new stuff. It cuts just as fast if not a little faster than the 63pm, not as much tooth length on the oregon though. Doesn't last as long.

[Burnham]

Thanks, Brian...I most certainly could be well and truly confused :|: .

I just looked carefully again at the Stihl USA website. It does not display the PM1, only the PM and the PMC3. It calls the PMC3 "the successor to PM1", so I supppose that might mean that the PM1 has bit the dust...probably a good thing. From the Stihl website info I mistakenly thought that PM and PM1 were the same thing. Thanks for straightening me out.

The PMC3 has a weird bump or spur on the top rear portion of the drive links that overlaps and matches the height of the raker on the cutter link. Odd looking. I think you'd have to file both down when setting depth of cut. No way to avoid it, really.

[Skwerl]

Well in that case, just stick with the PM. It's all I use, I buy it by the roll.

On the other hand, if you are buying it for employees then you might be better off getting the PMC3. 99% of users never file the rakers anyway (many of the tree guys I know don't even file the teeth).

[Burnham]

I might just get a loop of both for the heck of it and try them side by side. Thanks for the input.

I'd still like to hear from anyone who has used the PMC3.

[Burnham]

I use the 63pm but I bought some oregon 91vx i think? new stuff. It cuts just as fast if not a little faster than the 63pm, not as much tooth length on the oregon though. Doesn't last as long.

I looked at that stuff, too. I have no real rub with Oregon chain, but just prefer Stihl chain in general. Thanks, Jim.

[Stumper]

Burnham, I have not used the PMC3 but by way of insight regarding chains using wide rakers or rakerbumps on the tie straps I have used Oregon (Vanguard) and Sabre chains using that anti kickback theory. They work very well for boring, cut very smoothly and are a little bit of a pain (not too onerous) to set the depth gauges on.

[Rotax Robert]

I took the pmc3 off of my buddies 200t and put on the pm. He is a lineman and said it cut way to slow for him. In most cases I have found that if it is anti kickback it is also anti-cut. I think he put the pmc3 in his tool kit for some nasty stuff he might run into knowing he is about to trash a chain for good.

[Chisel Tooth]

Any Stihl chain ending in a number is low kick back, with the exception of the 61PMN chain these are all low kick back. I'll try to explain the number and letter thing. The basics are:
Letters:
P= Picco
M= Micro
N= Narrow
R= Rapid
S= Super
C= comfort: this is the newest chain put out by Stihl it has the cutters angled back slightly, suppose to reduce vibration
First Numbers: Refer to pitch
1= 1/4"
2= .325
3= 3/8"
4= .404
6= 3/8 used only to refer to the PM chains
Second number: Refers to gauge
1= 43ga
3= 50ga
5= 58ga
6=63ga
There are more but for most of you these will be the most common.
Hope this helps you guys out. If anyone has any questions I'll answer them the best I can.
See Ya
Mike

[Rotax Robert]

Good info there Chisel, I got a couple of real nice chain charts from Madsens for stihl and oregon chain. Most people dont realize how many different types/styles of chains are out there.

[Chisel Tooth]

Yeah Oregon is a whole diffent system. I would have get out the book to explain it. Same with Carlton, Winsor, and a few others.

[JIML]

Any Stihl chain ending in a number is low kick back, with the exception of the 61PMN chain these are all low kick back. I'll try to explain the number and letter thing. The basics are:
Letters:
P= Picco
M= Micro
N= Narrow
R= Rapid
S= Super
C= comfort: this is the newest chain put out by Stihl it has the cutters angled back slightly, suppose to reduce vibration
First Numbers: Refer to pitch
1= 1/4"
2= .325
3= 3/8"
4= .404
6= 3/8 used only to refer to the PM chains
Second number: Refers to gauge
1= 43ga
3= 50ga
5= 58ga
6=63ga
There are more but for most of you these will be the most common.
Hope this helps you guys out. If anyone has any questions I'll answer them the best I can.
See Ya
Mike


forgot one ;)

[Chisel Tooth]

Yeah I did don't want to piss off the Jonsered guys. There I fixed it, thanks Jim.

[brendonv]

That little graph you made helps me out alot Mike.

I just don't think I'll ever understand saw chain.

[brendonv]

Let's see if I got this.

I would need a 33 RS, or 33 RSC for a MS460.

And a 63 PM for a 200T?

[Skwerl]

You got it, Brendon. :thumbup:

Just add the link count at the end. For a 14" bar on your 200T you would ask for 63PM-50. For a 16" you want 63PM-55 (I think).
A 24" bar on your 460 would wear 33RS-84 and a 28" would wear 33RS-91.

[Chisel Tooth]

I deal with it everyday so I have a slight advantage. It's not to hard 63PM=
3/8 50ga picco micro I need to go back and add more explainations. Such as that picco is a low profile cutter. But yeah that is right, but on the other hand you can run a 63PM chain on a 440, it just won't cut as fast as the 33 or 36 will.

[Chisel Tooth]

That's right Brian, this is the same for all chains. The three things about chain are pitch, gauge, and driver count.

[sotc]

good info, thanks

[JIML]

skwerl isn't a 28" 92 links? Been a couple years since i made chains. Used to do it for days at a time. Talk about boring!

[FJR]

:thumbup: Thanks for going over this it always seems to confuse me too

[Blinky]

I switched to Oregon VX 3/8 - .050 on my 200T a while back. No complaints.

[Chisel Tooth]

That chain is the same as the 91VS, they just just changed the way they grind the cutter angle.

[Skwerl]

skwerl isn't a 28" 92 links? Been a couple years since i made chains. Used to do it for days at a time. Talk about boring!

I think there is some variation depending on the brand of saw and/or bar you're using. According to my Bailey's catalog there are 91-93 links for a 28" bar. My Husky 372 takes 93 with the GB bars but only 92 with the Windsor and Oregon bars.

Most bars will have the chain length stamped on the bar.

[Chisel Tooth]

You guys are right the driver count can very for different saws, and some are the same. Where a MS 200T 14" uses a 50 driver count chain, a Homelite Super XL2 14" might use a 52 driver count chain.
See Ya
Mike

[Stumper]

Blinky, FWIW, I have run plenty of Oregon 91series chains-like you -No complaints. However, as much as i like to poke fun at Stihl and tout other saws I must admit that Stihl makes the very best saw chain-at least instandard 3/8ths. I have only run a loop or 2 of STihl 3/8ths low profile(Picco Micro in their terminology) I started running Carlton years ago and very much prefer it to Oregon 91-The Carlton low pro is more agressive (a fact your knee might not appreciate) AND has about 40% more tooth in each cutter.

[Blinky]

Thanks for that Justin, I'll give Carlton lo pro a try. Stihl does make great chain but around here it's double the price of Oregon.

[brendonv]

I've noticed the Stihl chain holds an edge ALOT longer than an oregon.

[SawTroll]

Burnham, you might be confused. The 63-PM1 is the picco micro safety chain with the triple humps on the tie straps. The 63-PM is the picco micro non-safety chain with normal tie straps.
The 63-PMC3 is the newest style from Stihl. It does not look like safety chain but supposedly is. I have not used it in that size yet.

I have used the full size 3/8 (33RSC3) and I cannot visually distinguish it from the regular 33RS non-safety chain. The 33RSC3 is just as fast and slightly smoother than 33RS.

Stihl use a variant of the Oregon VP/LP/BP etc design on the PMC3 + they have adopted the Oregon low-vibe feature.

It is probably a pretty good bore-cutter when reasonably new (never used one, just studied the design).

I would still try Orego 91VX/VS, and the streight Stihl 63PM first, then the 91V and 63PMC3.

Stay a long way away from 63PM1 or 91VG.......:evil:

[SawTroll]

...
I have used the full size 3/8 (33RSC3) and I cannot visually distinguish it from the regular 33RS non-safety chain. The 33RSC3 is just as fast and slightly smoother than 33RS.


That sounds more like RSC than RSC3......;)

[Skwerl]

I believe you're right. Thanks for the correction, Sawtroll. :thumbup:

[Chisel Tooth]

The way to tell the difference from the RS and the RSC, is the RSC will have arrows on the side straps, they are sloped and have to be installed in the right direction. I didn't get into the last number because no one here likes the low kick back chain.
1= triple hump tie strap used on the Stihl picco chain
2= triple hump tie strap used on RM chain
3= single humped drive link on the RSC chain

[Burnham]

My head is starting to hurt...:)

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Lots of good info.


Any Stihl chain ending in a number is low kick back, with the exception of the 61PMN chain these are all low kick back. I'll try to explain the number and letter thing. The basics are:
Letters:
P= Picco
M= Micro
N= Narrow
R= Rapid
S= Super
C= comfort: this is the newest chain put out by Stihl it has the cutters angled back slightly, suppose to reduce vibration
First Numbers: Refer to pitch
1= 1/4"
2= .325
3= 3/8"
4= .404
6= 3/8 used only to refer to the PM chains
Second number: Refers to gauge
1= 43ga
3= 50ga
5= 58ga
6=63ga
There are more but for most of you these will be the most common.
Hope this helps you guys out. If anyone has any questions I'll answer them the best I can.
See Ya
Mike

I'm gonna print this up and file it away for future reference. Thanks, Mike.

[SawTroll]

...
3= single humped drive link on the RSC chain

...and PMC.....:D

[Chisel Tooth]

Yep, sorry I missed one thanks TS. Glad ya'll got my back. No problem Burnham, the others helped also, pointing out what I missed. Saw chain can get confusing, Pitch, gauge, Pro, Low Kickback, Full Chisel, Chipper, Carbide,
Square Ground, and so on. I love it when a guy comes in and ask for a chain, "what kind are you using?" He will say "I don't know they are all the same" I have a 4' length of 3/4 pitch harvester chain I will show them, and tell them trust me they are not the same.
See Ya
Mike

[SawTroll]

That fits Rocky, the RSC3 is sort of a copy of the Oregon LP, but the rakers and the ramps are both larger = lesser performance.....:/:

Imo the Oregon LP is about as good as the Stihl RSC, but they sure are different by design - Oregon LG/LGX is just a lesser design, and performs accordingly - but the margin is slight....

This is about 3/8" chains, .325 changes the story somewhat, the LG is totally out there, as it is a low-pro.

Best chains??? Stihl RSK, then RSC, and then Oregon LP - but the differences is too small to talk about.....


In 3/8 lo-pro, it obviously is between the 63PM and the Oregon 91VX/VS - but I never used any of those - and I don't care to either - .325VP (Oregon 95VP/ Husky H30) is perfect on my 339xp (has a bit more ccs and power than the MS200).

[SawTroll]

I just got banned on the AS, as I didn't agree to the "moral standards", imposed by the leadership there - but it took me a lot of posts to get banned....:big-tongue4:

It was great fun, well worth the effort - and maybe I kicked off a thought in some people!!! :evil:

[MasterBlaster]

AS sure likes to ban people.

[SawTroll]

AS sure likes to ban people.

Yeah, but it didn't really seem like they wanted to ban me, but ultimately I got a 1 day and a two day ban on top of each other - but they took away 4000 rep points before that - who really cares:) :D ;) :big-tongue4:

They just make fools of themselves, and the site owners wife, who started it all, by not liking to see Gypo naked, with an 088 in front of his privates....

Old picture, but not to everyone - and her morale slipped..lol

[sotc]

i just got my father in law 2 chains and my dealer wrote down 33rsc372 what is the 3 mean right before 72?

[Chisel Tooth]

I don't know Willie I've never seen a chain marked like this. 33RSC is a 3/8" 50 ga. Rapid Super, (Square Shoulder, or Full Chisel) Comfort, 72 would refer to the driver count so a 33RSC-72 fits a 20" bar.
a 33RSC-372 would fit a 7' or 8' bar.
See Ya
Mike

[Skwerl]

Willie, the RSC3 is the safety chain version and 72 is the link count. Look up to Saw Troll's post a couple days ago.

That fits Rocky, the RSC3 is sort of a copy of the Oregon LP, but the rakers and the ramps are both larger = lesser performance.....

[Chisel Tooth]

Damn I read that wrong, not allowing for the spaces, thanks Brian,. What Brian said Willie, it is a low kick back chain. It is 33RSC3-72.

[sotc]

oooooooooooooooh :dur: thanks, i did tell them i wanted an aggressive saftey chain for him

[SawTroll]

Damn I read that wrong, not allowing for the spaces, thanks Brian,. What Brian said Willie, it is a low kick back chain. It is 33RSC3-72.
Stihl RSC3 is sort of a copy of the concept of the Oregon LP, but they messed it up with both the large rakers of the RS/RSC/LG, and way too large ramps on the drivers into the bargain - I have not run that chain, and I don't want to either.....:evil: :roll:

...looks like it is designed by lawyers, and not sawyers.

Carlton has a similar, maybe even worse design out.....

[Chisel Tooth]

Yeah ya got that right.
See Ya
Mike

[SawTroll]

Yeah, but it didn't really seem like they wanted to ban me, but ultimately I got a 1 day and a two day ban on top of each other - but they took away 4000 rep points before that - who really cares:) :D ;) :big-tongue4:

They just make fools of themselves, and the site owners wife, who started it all, by not liking to see Gypo naked, with an 088 in front of his privates....

Old picture, but not to everyone - and her morale slipped..lol


Sorry, Mrs AS, if you see this - they just supposed you would disapprove, and acted accordingly......:/:


...but this story is history, anyway!

[SawTroll]

Stihl RSC3 is sort of a copy of the concept of the Oregon LP, but they messed it up with both the large rakers of the RS/RSC/LG, and way too large ramps on the drivers into the bargain - I have not run that chain, and I don't want to either.....:evil: :roll:

...looks like it is designed by lawyers, and not sawyers.

Carlton has a similar, maybe even worse design out.....


Forgot to say, the original Oregon LP chains, with the slim rakers and small ramps, are just great!!! 8) 8)

[sotc]

so whats the prob with large rakers? just more to file? and the drivers?

[SawTroll]

so whats the prob with large rakers? just more to file? and the drivers?


The large rakers take up space for chip transport, and slows down borecutting (they get in the way of the cutters at the bar tip).

Small ramps on the drivers (Oregon LP etc) take up about take up about the same space, but allows for better borecutting.

Large rakers, combined with large ramps......:cry: :whine:

[sotc]

thanks for the info.

[sotc]

Best chains??? Stihl RSK, then RSC, and then Oregon LP - but the differences is too small to talk about.....


i just finished off my roll of oregon chain and asked my dealer what they reccomend i try in stihl chain. he said 36RSL. what do you guys think of this chain? and 270 bucks!

[JIML]

I believe the RSL is a square ground square tooth chain. RS is the round filed square tooth chain.....

[BostonBull]

RSL is a 3/8" pitch Square ground chisel chain, in .063 gauge.

What application is it for?

[Skwerl]

That's not a bad price. I think Wood's logging supply over by Gary in Washington is a few dollars cheaper, but it's not enough difference to be worth the drive. I'd be happy to be able to buy a roll of Stihl RS for less than $300.

[BostonBull]

Retail on 100' reel over here is $438!!!

[Skwerl]

BB's prices are the same as my local ripoff dealer prices, which is why I pay another forum member to buy my chain for me at his local dealer and UPS it to me. I still save over $100 per roll that way.

[bergsteiger]

The Stihl square grind full skip is the best chain I think I've cut with but you do have to have a square grinder to sharpen it.

[wiley_p]

225.00 per roll.:evil:

[BostonBull]

BB's prices are the same as my local ripoff dealer prices, which is why I pay another forum member to buy my chain for me at his local dealer and UPS it to me. I still save over $100 per roll that way.

Easy on calling someone a rip off! I give 10-15% off for buying a reel of chain! I said those prices are retail............:X

[Skwerl]

$200 markup on a roll of chain is a ripoff IMO. You stated a price and I said it was the same as my local ripoff dealers, which is why I get the EXACT SAME CHAIN for $200 cheaper and I still save $150 after having it shipped UPS across the country.

$438 minus 10% is still a ripoff when another dealer can sell the same chain for $225 and still make money.

[BostonBull]

Sure thing Skwerl. I Pay $275 per roll! I would like this delaers name and number and ill have a friend do the same for me. Actually I will buy all my chains from him because he obviously has a HUGE stock of older cheaper priced chain.

[sotc]

RSL is a 3/8" pitch Square ground chisel chain, in .063 gauge.

What application is it for?

its for my saws from 260's-660's. dang i thought 270 bucks was bad!! better buy 2 before the steel prices catch up!

rip off? i dont know brian, nothing wrong with making good money, i try to:) and your going around him, if he doesnt like that he can lower his price!

[Will]

A 100 foot roll of sthil 3/8 chain gos for about $600 here.

[sotc]

so any feed back on the 36RSL? they say you can round grind it

[Skwerl]

Yes. Even if you buy the square ground, you can file it with a round file. My current roll of 33RSLK is square ground and I tried square filing it, but it's a PITA and not any faster cutting for me. So now I just round file it right from the get go with no issues, even on the first sharpening.

33 is .050 gauge.
36 is .063 gauge

[sotc]

i run .063 on every thing but my 200's. simplifies things

[Skwerl]

HAH! I just found a local Stihl dealer that sells Stihl chain for $300 per roll. I can FINALLY buy it at a reasonable price locally instead of having to bother a friend to purchase and ship it from across the country. :D

[squisher]

Yah you wouldn't want to get ripped off :lol:.

[lumberjack]

I wish I could buy it at a reasonable price.

I bought some collosal amount of chit in there one day (I think a $11.7k Exmark, a 660, 440, and a 200T) and asked how much a roll of chain would cost. I saw they paid something like $260-270 and yet they wanted me to pay full price.

I might have to bug Gary after I get Bank of America sucking a dry teet late this month early/mid next!