Which Way Will it Fall?

[Old Monkey]

If you have a more or less well balanced tree and someone cuts a couple of major roots on one side, which way will it fall if it falls? I have an opinion that I will keep to myself on this one. Preston, my coworker and I had a debate on this other day and I want settle it in a fair manner.

[RIVERRAT]

That question begs a great amount of speculation.

With that said & if every thing is equal. I say it will fall in the direction of the remaining roots.
With that said the height & taper of the tree could could cause things to go differently......Also you made no mention of which way the wind's blowing:D

[rumination]

All other factors being equal it would be more likely to fall away from the cut roots.

[wiley_p]

Is it a conifer or hardwood? Where are the roots cut in relation to your prevailing winds in the area?

[squisher]

I agree with Leon.

[Old Monkey]

It is an artificial situation and the wind blows every direction equally. We'll say its a conifer for the sake of discussion.

[MasterBlaster]

Barring an opposite headwind, it would fall to the side where the root were holding it.

Edit... What Leon said! :drink:

[Skwerl]

What type of soil? Is the tree deep rooted or are the roots all growing in a 12" layer of topsoil on top of rock?

[MasterBlaster]

WAIT! What day of the week is it??? :what:

[squisher]

All other factors being equal it would be more likely to fall away from the cut roots.

Bah all technicality's, Leon said it best.

[Frans]

O.K. I'll bite.

If the tree falls, and no one is around to see or hear it, has it fallen at all?

Schroder's cat syndrome.


But I agree with MBs statement that the tree will fall in the direction of the remaining roots. Or not. A tree may remain upright for many years after suffering such a loss of support.
Such is the reality of us, tree health professionals, we often get asked to determine the exact extent of liability or risk.

Funny you should ask this at this time. Right now, I have condemned a tree and the homeowner is asking me how long he has exactly until the tree fails. He is hoping that the tree will stay upright until spring.

I cannot make a prophesy with such crucial elements to factor in. Such as the garage being crushed, or personal injury.

[Rotax Robert]

I say it will fall away from cut roots also. I have pushed many 1000"s of trees over and atleast where I live they are almost impossible to push away from healthy roots. The trees in our area are heavily rooted one side due our Monster east winds but I can push them east with ease. I might add that our trees have very few limbs on the east side also from the winds snapping them off.

[Stumper]

If it falls it will fall DOWN.

[Frans]

If it falls it will fall DOWN.

Trust Stumper to get to the heart of the matter :thumbup:

[top hopper]

Agreed.....

away from the cut roots!

The remaining (uncut roots) will just fold over like a hinge. The tree needs the tension on the opposite side for stability. Cut those roots and you eliminate that equalizing tension.

[JamesTX]

Nah - if it was/is in balance, then it will fall 90 degrees to the side from which the roots were cut.

[The Branch Doctor]

If it falls it will fall DOWN.

:lol: :lol:

I'm with Stumpy cept I'd say it will definitely fall OVER... one way or another.;)

[Rotax Robert]

Agreed.....

away from the cut roots!

The remaining (uncut roots) will just fold over like a hinge. The tree needs the tension on the opposite side for stability. Cut those roots and you eliminate that equalizing tension.


thank you, sometimes my babbling don't make sense.

I do tree removal a bit different than most of you guys as I either top them about a foot or so off the ground or lean on them with a hoe taking the stump at the same time. That tree sure gives a guy one hell of a lot of leverage.

[NickfromWI]

I agree, it will fall toward the remaining roots.

OM- what did YOU think?

love
nick

[Rotax Robert]

OM is busy trying to figure out how to dissagree with me, give him time.

[Old Monkey]

Lets just say the ground is quickly eroding under Preston's argument. I won't shut him down too hard because I enjoy our debates.


He had a good question a while back about whether some trees are hard to determine the sex of while they are young. We have seen neighborhood's with honey locusts in front of just about every tree on the block and only a few unlucky home owners have trees heavily laden with seed pods.


edit: Rotax, everyone needs a hobby.

[Rotax Robert]

Nah - if it was/is in balance, then it will fall 90 degrees to the side from which the roots were cut.

Roots go all the way around the tree I am assuming and only one side is compromised.

[Frans]

He had a good question a while back about whether some trees are hard to determine the sex of while they are young.


Even the nurseries have a hard time determining the sex of trees.

We just cut down 35 ginko trees on the main drag of town. The seeds were falling and stinking to high heaven.

Big tourist turn off

[NickfromWI]

So what was Preston basing his argument on?

Roots are not like pillars holding up the Coliseum. They are more like guy wires holding up a cell phone tower.

love
nick

[Rotax Robert]

So what was Preston basing his argument on as well as yours OM? or are you just playin with him.

[Old Monkey]

No, I said what you guys said, that it would fall away from the cut roots. I think he felt it would start leaning that way. His line of thinking is along the lines of Guy's theory of trees growing at angle because of girdling roots on the lean side. I was basing my argument on failed trees I have seen.

Fran's its "Shrodinger's cat" and I didn't say that my tree was inside a box with no one to see it. If it was the tree would be both standing and fallen over at the same time until someone opened the box.

[Rotax Robert]

A few I asked here at work and most missed it albeit they are not tree guys.

good thread

[Tom_Scheller]

Roots are not like pillars holding up the Coliseum. They are more like guy wires holding up a cell phone tower.


Isn't it the opposite? It's true, roots do anchor, but they primarily BUTTRESS. I would say that in practice, however, there's always wind and they're never perfectly balanced so if you cut roots, assume that it will land on your head or the nearest Mercedes.

TS

[Frans]

Thanks Darin

[gf beranek]

To solve the problem of getting the stump out of the ground we've rigged the tree to pull it, then cut the roots and yard away with the cat or loader. It takes some, or a lot, of rocking back and forth sometimes. Like pulling a big wisdom tooth.

[Mike Maas]

There was a famous observational scientist whose prediction about the direction of fall would be quite different than most of those given so far. Not only do his observations predict the direction, but also the timing of the failure.

This fellow, named Murphy, would predict the tree to fall toward the most expensive target and at the most inopportune moment.

[Blinky]

There was a famous observational scientist whose prediction about the direction of fall would be quite different than most of those given so far. Not only do his observations predict the direction, but also the timing of the failure.

This fellow, named Murphy, would predict the tree to fall toward the most expensive target and at the most inopportune moment.

Damn! you took my answer... toward the most expensive target.

[arborworks1]

So very true about expensive targets.

[Frans]

Was this scientist related to Murphy, Mr. Maas?
:)

[TC3]

My first thought was to comment on tension / compaction roots, but it sounds like Leon is right on the mark.
As an afterthought, if you happened to cut the tension root (the larger of the 2) & somehow missed cutting the compaction root (opposite side most often), you'd have a very unpredictable situation on your hands. The tree would most likely fall perpendicular to the tension root.
Just my .02

[treelooker]

The tree will NOT fall away from the cable you installed. :thumbup:

"Guy's theory of trees growing at angle because of girdling roots on the lean side."

Not really much of a theory, really more like a few anecdotal observations of trees leaning AWAY from girdling roots; a fairly rare phenomenon in nature.

:surprise:

[TC3]

I need a minute to decipher & digest that, Guy. Thanks for posting... it was way too hung up on "Murphy", and I have a distaste for the man.

[Old Monkey]

Thanks for the correction Guy.

[Mike Maas]

One good technique for removing small stumps, is to leave the stump high, tie a rope to the top and pull with a winch. Then you chop at the roots on the far side. It wouldn't do anything to chop them on the side the winch is pulling.

[Stumper]

Mike ,What you wrote Is correct in indicating the most important roots to cut to get a stump to pull but not precisely true. Cutting the rootts on the inboard side will sometimes facilitatethe stump rotating in its bed and either snapping small supporting roots or exposing them for cutting.

It May help to think about this whole cut roots scenario in terms of an undercut/facecut and a back cut. If you place a small uncercut in a spar only in very rare situations (severely compromised wood, hollows, extreme leans, etc) will the spar fall into the face without further work. On the otherhand if you make a full backcut without a facecut the tree will likely fail . Cutting a couple of large roots on one side is equivalent to making a backcut of indeterminate depth. In most situations it isn't enough to allow the tree to fail absent outside forces...but if those roots were a high percentage of support the situation may equate to having cut 85-95% through without a face. -It can fall but may hinge straight off the backcut into the holding strip or roll and tear out on either side.....However, directly back is not likely without some extreme modifying force.

[Mike Maas]

That's like comparing apples to frogs.:lol:
I don't cut on the pull side because those roots just bend and fail, the roots on the other side are holding in line with the root, they have to be cut.
It's easy to break a small board by bending it, try breaking it by pulling the two ends straight apart.:P