Leaning white pine

[pantheraba]

Butch, you griped it has been slow...here's my contribution. Treework has been slow for me over the last several months. It just picked up.

I got a call from a neighbor/customer last Tuesday afternoon...she had noticed a 60 foot white pine starting to lean towards the house. Her husband had planted many different trees on their property 30-40 years ago, these 2 white pines were babies back then.

I went by after work that evening and took my stainless steel dowel (same one you used at Andersonville, Guy) and probed the ground around the base. I could penetrate about 2 inches on the house side, under the lean. I could probe 1-2 feet on the other side of the tree, which indicated to me some definite lifting/root compromising on that side. I couldn't see any obvious mounding but the earth did sound "hollower" on the side away from the lean.


On Wed. I went back and installed a chain about 30 feet up to the brother white pine. There was a bit of sag in it since I was only hand tightening the chain. We had some good wind activity Thursday. That evening I checked the chain and it was appreciably tighter...the tree had moved some. It was not "hard tight" but the sag was gone.

The wood hanging from the tree was a cross beam for a swing...it was attached (with nylon type ski rope!!) to both trees until the one started leaning. The first order of business was to get the beam out of the tree.

[pantheraba]

Saturday I began taking the tree down. The fellow working with me had never used a porty. I experimented with making 6-8 limb bouquets to give him some loads to practice lowering, learning to let them run. Lots of the smaller limbs I cut with my Silky and just tossed down into a safe drop zone...those over the deck got lowered. The fire ring was a great target for tossing stubs, just like in TCC events.

I cleaned the spar on the way up and then blocked down the top (about 8-10 feet) and then blocked down some chunks...due to the lean I had to block down all the wood until about at 40 feet. Then we put a good top rope pull on a 4 foot chunk, notched, back cut and pulled it over opposite the lean.

[pantheraba]

I used wedges to control the tendency to set back...first time I have had to use wedges while in a tree. It got dark on me (always!!) and I left about a 30 foot spar. You can see where the chain recovered a sag as the weight came off the spar.

This is the first white pine I have worked with...very soft wood...my spurs got stuck a few times. I have not had that happen before.

I’ll return next weekend to finish the spar.

[pantheraba]

Two more just to see how they fly.

(Hey, John, No_Bivy, that's the false crotch you made for me...thanks, bro)

[rumination]

Nice work Gary.

[No_Bivy]

I like how you lowered them right onto the wheelbarrow...Sweet. Did you consider guying the tree while you were in it?

[pantheraba]

The chain was what I considered my guy. It was secured straight back opposite the lean. The chain shows tight in the first few picts then slack as the tree sat back up...I never felt the tree move back up but it definitely did.

Is there another way to do it?

I considered rope but didn't have any I consider strong enough to really hold the tree if it did decide to start leaning more. I figured once I got the weight of the limbs off of it the only additional stress to the root system would be what we caused with blocking down chunks.

Y'all feel free to query/teach; doesn't hurt my feelings. If you see a better/different way I'd like to hear it (besides a crane).

[gf beranek]

Worked quite a few leaners like that over the years. And many the same way you did in the pics above. Only exception, with other trees near by to use as purchase points offered chance for a little more rigging and alternate tie-in-points. Especially when working out the top. Good Job!!!

[treelooker]

First class job! It'd be interesting to know what started the lean. I always suspect girdling roots.

[Old Monkey]

Good work Gary.

[pantheraba]

First class job! It'd be interesting to know what started the lean. I always suspect girdling roots.

Thanks, GF and Darin.

Guy, how would I determine the cause of the lean? There are no girdling roots obvious...dig down a bit? I, too, am wondering what caused this to start. The tree seemed to be in fine health. There has not been any construction stress or changes in the yard.

[squisher]

Gary awesome job! The tree you say has zero visible signs? With White Pine I'd guess it could be a whole host of different problems or perhaps any changes to the surrounding landscapes that exposed it to more winds?

[Burnham]

Looks real good, Gary. Could the cause be wind? Did that tree stand above the rest of the trees nearby? Also, how about something underground that caused shallow rooting, like bedrock or a hard clay layer under the topsoil? Or an unusually wet spot...slowly leaking waterline or a spring.

[brendonv]

Nice job gary.

I've done a great share of White Pine removals. Amazing how a little cut with a handsaw to a branch sends it to the ground.

Good work.

[pantheraba]

Looks real good, Gary. Could the cause be wind? Did that tree stand above the rest of the trees nearby? Also, how about something underground that caused shallow rooting, like bedrock or a hard clay layer under the topsoil? Or an unusually wet spot...slowly leaking waterline or a spring.

Brendon, I was surprised at how few strokes it took to get thru the soft wood...it made using the chainsaw a moot point sometimes.

Burnham, I don't think the wind was a major cause..this tree is the same height as surrounding trees...I have wondered about soil conditions/moisture under the tree. Our area is famous for springs...I wondered if one might have popped up under this tree. My probe came up dry...I'll try to probe deeper and see if I hit water. If I do I will have to charge her for drilling a well, what with our drought and all. ;)

[Bodean]

Stellar Work, Pantheraba, Gary.

[sotc]

good job gary, thanks for the pics

[No_Bivy]

my mantra....leaning pine.....you get to live. Nice job!:D

[The Branch Doctor]

Looking good dude and I love all the pics.

[treelooker]

yeah why not if you have the time dig down and see what you see. Maybe one of burnham's theories are right; maybe it was girdling (if so I would LOVE a pic for my sgr gallery)

[Dave Shepard]

Nice job, thanks for the pics!

I have seen a lot of girdling roots in tree planting. We didn't often get a chance to do post mortems with the trees that died, but I have seen them in trees that we have replaced. I don't know if the trees being from nursery stock has anything to do with it or not. Many of the trees arborists are dealing with today on large estates were transplanted a long time ago. One of the techniques we used to plant the nursery whips is to dig a 3' hole with an auger and plant the whip. Even if you shave the glazed sides of the hole down with a spade, I feel there is a zone of heavier compaction in the planting hole that could cause a girdling root. Just some speculation.


Dave

[lumberjack]

...Our area is famous for springs...I

Was it in your town? Fitting name for your town, it would be perfect if there was a battery or grease making plant inside the town. :P

Looks like you did a fine job, I've only had to climb a few leaning pines (loblolly). Normally I can throw them and/or use the lift.

[pantheraba]

Was it in your town? Fitting name for your town, it would be perfect if there was a battery or grease making plant inside the town. :P


Yep, just 4 houses down from my house...at the lady's house where I traded her some treework last year (dead limb removals over her parking area) for bamboo. She lets me cut boo whenever I want to now..what could be better than that?? :lol:

She did hire me for this job, though (paid with money, not bamboo) :thumbup:

[chris_girard]

Brendon, I was surprised at how few strokes it took to get thru the soft wood...it made using the chainsaw a moot point sometimes.

That is how it is up here in NH too. I do an awful lot of pine removals and use a handsaw and chainsaw almost both equally for limb removals.

[pantheraba]

I went back today and finished the job...the spar was still standing. I went back up and cut 4 each 3-4 foot chunks. Since there was still a slight lean toward the house I used wedges to lift and break off the chunks. This is the first job that I have purposely taken hammer and wedges up with me...once in awhile I have had them sent up.

On my first face cut, I pushed the wood "pie" out and saw there was still a small piece remaining...is that a Dutchman?

I assume that if I did not remove it that it would cause the block of wood to roll back towards the point I am looking from as the block hinged over.

Right?

[MasterBlaster]

On a tree that small you don't need wedges. I would leave them in my toolbox and instead just push.

[pantheraba]

As one of the pieces broke the hinge and tipped over, I snapped 2 quick pictures. The second is the block on the way down. I had tried this on the piece before this one...had everything set, chunk tipped, fell and I snapped....forgot to turn the camera on. Aaarrrggghh!!

Second time worked....screwing up is a great teacher.

That left a 25 foot spar. I top tied it, set up a transport tightening system, pulled hard and locked that down. Then I hooked a rope hoist to that and got it tighter, pulled out the slack and locked it all down.

I cut the notch (face cut), started the back cut and set 3 wedges. Then I used the rope system to slowly break the spar to vertical, reset the wedges, tightened again and broke the spar on down. No pictures of that...sorry.

[pantheraba]

On a tree that small I would leave my wedges in my toolbox and instead just push.

I hear ya...but you have the experience...I needed the practice. I probably chunked/wedged down several pieces I didn't need to. What I did like about the system was the element of control it gives...also, with the lean, the wood was setting back and pinching the saw...the wedge freed it up.

When I have a big piece I'll have some experience to fall back on.

[MasterBlaster]

What I mean to say is, I rarely use wedges.

[rumination]

Good work Gary. Thanks for sharing the pictures.

[sotc]

gary i wouldnt call that a dutchman, just need some clean up. a dutchman would be if your horizontal cut went past the vertical and or the vertical went past the horizontal

[sotc]

the point at which either cut passes the hinge

[pantheraba]

the point at which either cut passes the hinge

Good visual, Willie....thanks.

[Jonseredbred]

Gary, your right. Doing something for practice and experience is the right thing to do.

I assume you climbed by yourself to finish that job. The better way would have been to have a ground man there pulling the pieces over with a rope.

Some of you guys scare the chrap out of me when you post jobs that you are climbing solo, it is a big no no in my book.

[No_Bivy]

solo ain't that bad on some stuff...........

[pantheraba]

I assume you climbed by yourself to finish that job. The better way would have been to have a ground man there pulling the pieces over with a rope.


You are right, I was solo...folks in the house but not out with me. I did the earlier parts of the tree with a groundie pulling some of the pieces with a rope.

These 4 chunks I did very methodically...took about 1.5 hrs to do the 4...a slow-go. I had chainsaw pants on, double and separated tie-ins, checked each cut carefully, etc. I agree, with a groundie is better; much quicker, too.

[gf beranek]

In my younger years I climbed solo a lot, doing weekend jobs, and having the property owner run the ropes when needed. No qualified climber on site to rescue me in the event I was hurt in the tree.

Nonetheless, the thought of working alone in those circumstances was always in the back of my mind and I made it a concious effort to work double safe everytime, because I knew that property owner wasn't going to be of much help.

It is a written rule one shouldn't work alone, but we still do.

[lumberjack]

...(post 27, or click link <<<)...

In your first picture, your back cut is too deep, it cut through the hinge as it passes the apex of the notch. Can you see it or do you want me to "paint" the picture? (pun intended)

On the notch with the block in it, I agree it isn't a dutchman, but it would react similarly. Like you suggested, it would swing towards the camera somewhat, which could be exacerbated by a tapered wedge, the thick part on the camera side.

[sotc]

here gary i found you a "proper dutchman: :D
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/1_4OPTbATOI&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1_4OPTbATOI&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[Jamin Mayer]

Nice multi-branch technique. Saves time.

[pantheraba]

here gary i found you a "proper dutchman:

It looks just like the picture you drew..good find.:thumbup:

[Frans]

The guy repeated himself so much I think I finally got it!

One question: Did he cut the rear branch off so it would fall in the desired direction?
:|:

[Ax-Man]

Nice work Gary and good pics.

Just to add to the thread a little. What caused the pine to lean could also have been from J roots where the roots grow off in one direction instead of spreading out in all directions. This could be a natural occurance or caused by an underground obsticle like a rock. Like Burnham mentioned a wetspot could have triggered the lean if J roots are the the cause. J roots are not all that uncommon in mass plantings of trees for wind breaks, nursery stock, or wild trees that have seeded themselves. Gary's jobsite has the look of what may be the remanats of a windbreak planting. Both broadleaf and evergreen species are prone to J rooting. Most J root problems can be attributed to poor root mangement in nursery stock and planting practices but it does occur naturally due to genitics.

In the first pic there is some resin bleeding out from the main stem. When I see this on a White Pine I always suspect White Pine Blister rust which is a canker disease of the main stem. This could be a factor in a round about way contributing to the lean. The bleeding could be from anything though, hard to tell from just a far away picture. Just a thought is all.

Gary's notch is a conventional notch. A Dutchman is basically the same thing only in reverse with the angle cut coming up from the bottom to meet the floor cut.

Again good job done Gary. Finish that sucker off and get paid;)

[pantheraba]

Again good job done Gary. Finish that sucker off and get paid;)

Thanks, Larry...good info on the J roots. Her husband planted many different species over the years. It is unknown how he dug, prepped and planted the trees.

The job is all done except for cutting the stump down ALAP....that'll happen soon.

I'll get paid as she can...her money is tight but she'll take care of me. :)

[sotc]

Gary's notch is a conventional notch. A Dutchman is basically the same thing only in reverse with the angle cut coming up from the bottom to meet the floor cut.


sounds like a humbolt?

[squisher]

Yah I didn't follow that either, but figured it coulda just been me :|:

[Ax-Man]

sounds like a humbolt?

Your right on that one, my error, :|: I should have checked that out before typing. The correct name for all the different notches and cuts gets away from me because I just don't have that much use for them in the type of treework we do. A regular notch and sometimes an open face is the norm 98% of the time. The other 2% will call for a different type notch which is nice to know and how to cut them is even better.

Sorry for the mistake.

[sotc]

no need to apologize 8)

[squisher]

Ya don't sweat it man, you continously offer up alot of really useful stuff here, I won't hold one little brain fart against ya.:D

[pantheraba]

It took me 6 weeks to get back and ALAP that stump. Here is a series of pictures of why the tree was leaning. The roots on the side away from the house were all dead...mostly dry and punky. I dug down a bit but couldn't determine what caused the die-back. I could easily dig out the rootwood and inner trunk with a shovel.

The gouged up parts of the stump are where I could easily dig out punky wood with my knife. There was a good bit of rot occurring in the trunk. Nothing real exciting, just a follow-up.

[pantheraba]

In case you are wondering...that is carpet in the second picture...they had it under the pinestraw to control weeds. The roots under it were exposed and dead.

[treelooker]

did it look like the carpet had been there for a long time?

Looking at that rotten stump :\: reminds me of the need to inspect trunk flares before climbing.

[pantheraba]

did it look like the carpet had been there for a long time?

Looking at that rotten stump :\: reminds me of the need to inspect trunk flares before climbing.

Hey, Guy, I was hoping you would chime in...yes, the carpet has been there a LONG time. I wondered if that could be a contributing problem...perhaps it prevents proper aeration/oxygenation? I'm really grasping here; I'd like to hear what you think.

The root rot I found was hidden to casual view...I discovered it when I was cleaning dirt and rocks away before making my cut. Next time I'll be more aggressive in exposing the root flare and roots before I climb.

I'm glad now that I did guy it with chain before climbing.

[Drella]

First class job! It'd be interesting to know what started the lean. I always suspect girdling roots.

White Pine are notorious shallow rooters, constantly blowing over when there's a few inches of rain and 30mph winds.

What I've noticed about girdling roots, mostly on Norway Maples and Cucumber Tree is, when the tree finally does fail, it doesn't pull up from the roots but pops out of itself like a giant push-up-stick...