Mycor

[Frans]

I would like to know if it is true that ALL plants require the presence of Mycor in order to live.

Is this statement true? or false?

:?

[Stumper]

Whether you would like to know about myc or not is something I can only guess at but since you are generally honest and forthright I assume that is TRUE.
As for mycorhizal fungi being imperative for the grtowth of all plants-FALSE.

[treetx]

http://www.ffp.csiro.au/research/mycorrhiza/nmplants.html

[treelooker]

False, of course, even for trees. Do they do better with mycorrhizae, usually, sometimes dramatically.

[Frans]

http://www.ffp.csiro.au/research/mycorrhiza/nmplants.html

Yea,but thats in Aussi land. We all know that things are, well, different down under 8)


I was/am truly under the assumption that NO roots can colonize without the presence of benificial fungi (mycor).

So why the reluctance to educate me? :?

[rumination]

Not true Frans. For instance, consider hydroponically grown plants. They grow quite well even though their roots are in a medium which does not harbor mycorrhizae. Another example would be nurseries that grow plants in sterile growth mediums so that they may receive phytosanitary certificates to be shipped across borders.

I would guess, though, that in the natural environment most plants benefit from a relationship with mycorrhizae. That's just a guess, though.

[NickfromWI]

Mycorrhizal fungus forms a mutualistic symbiotic relationship between the tree roots and the fungus. The fungus increases surface area of the roots and increases the trees uptake of water (and thus, nutrients). In exchange, the fungus recieves sugar/glucose/starches from the roots.

Neither hurts the other, but niether is reliant on the other. The roots can survice without the fungus, and the fungus without the roots.

I help plant hundreds and thousands of trees per year and almost every one of them gets mycorrhizal fungus (in dry/powder form) at planting. I'm not sure yet how to know if it is actually doing what it is supposed to be doing.

love
nick

[TC3]

I feel frustrated about an argument that asks, "Is nature the right way ?"
We will all feel the repurcussions of not following Nature. Like a slap on the wrist ? Like our grandkids will have to filter every drop of water they want to injest ? Like who-the-f**k-cares-because-I paid-my-friggin'-dues ?
Follow even a little bit. Who the hell cares if the factory down the road produces more waste than you & your family in a hundred years ? Who the f**k cares ? Honest to Crikey, just do what you can.
I'm doing what I can.
I believe that the introduction of Mycorrhizae fungus into urban soil(s) makes a difference.

[NickfromWI]

But believing it doesn't make it so. How do we KNOW if it makes a difference?

love
nick

[sotc]

http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=17&

[Frans]

Yes I have read the articles and spoken with Mike from this company and bought products from them.

"95% of all known tree species have mycor. present" is a quote from one of the articles.

Still, my understanding is that a mature tree cannot reach maturity or even grow, without mycor.
Ergo, every tree we come across in our work, has mycor. present.

I would like to know if this statement is true.

[TC3]

Thanks, Nick. You brought up a great point ... truly.
BELIEF.
Myco is not about belief. It is not about faith. It is not about hope.
It is about FACT.
When you manipulate urban environments to the extent that NATURE has to be re-introduced, do not tuck tail & run. Own it.
Call it 'snake oil' ??? Are you kidding me ??? Leaf drop / compost becomes voodoo. Soil amendments become the stuff of witchdoctors. Is that what you're reducing us to ?????????????????????????????

[wiltingoak]

It's true.

What's a problem is that the market people aren't understanding of how species-specific certain strains of their products are and are represented as the cure-all and applications encouraged to all trees, regardless of family bet it Beech or Pine.

Here's a neat trick:
propagate from seed a hickory (or a walnut, etc.) and grow it in the lab, sans any soil and even sterilize the growing media. Hydroponics for development and growth.

Now in a year, observe the root hairs.

Wonder where they came from?

Innoculating a pecan for example, it's an oldschool tool to speed development of growth as the native micor balance populations fluctuate in extremes due to conditions whether our fault or natures. They're always there and a pecan could never survive without them, it has no way of extending tissue that finds water, contacts then transference the moisture thru it's root hairs, this is the purpose of the micor and in return, the relationship feeds the carb to the fungi it couldn't process on it's own.

Symbiosis. A hard term to understand yet a simple description of every living thing's need to rely on everything else, in spite of our own misunderstandings of ecology, which Reagan successfully convinced us was a bad word.

[sotc]

sounds like a good question to submit to dr mike in his "ask dr mike" link since hes studied it deeply

[TC3]

It's true.

What's a problem is that the market people aren't understanding of how species-specific certain strains of their products are and are represented as the cure-all and applications encouraged to all trees, regardless of family bet it Beech or Pine.
I hear you loud-n-clear, Reed.
BUT >>> If a myco is introduced that has a span a 64 species (as I have previously mentioned) , would it not stand to reason that there's a pretty good chance of introducing a useful Myco ???

[NickfromWI]

Maybe...maybe not. What if the soil there is best for myco #62, but the roots and that tree really wanted myco #63.

[RIVERRAT]

As the question was originally worded by Frans the answer is FALSE!

[treelooker]

As the question was originally worded by Frans the answer is FALSE!Yeah but then he changed the question.

Oops, was that another "assault"? :\:

Dr. Mike gave a good talk at expo. he came right after me in the same room so it was an easy decision to stay. he handled questions well and avoided infomercialism--i didn't even know he had a corporate affiliation until later.

there's a fungus id thread at AS right now; someone posted a pic of pisolithus tinctorius, a fungus that gets it on with many many species. I'm not so sure about that numbering thingy.

[Frans]

I prob. just forgot the original question. Senility.
Treelooker I'm cool. Just really dont understand the answer to this (new?) question:

Do trees require mycor. in order to live?

[TC3]

Do trees need soil in order to live ? Technically, no.
We're hung up on this... "technically"... WHAT DO TREES ACTUALLY NEED ???
Just like we're hung up on wether or not myco is present in the soil & needs a release versus introducing it.
I say we do nuthing.
Yeah.
Otherwise, we're pedaling snake oil, right ???

[Paul B]

Need no, benefit from quite possibly. \
I have seen lots of plants grown in systems (hydroponic) that incorporate UV filtration (likely nothing alive in the water at all) and I have seen systems that have been using organic ferts, myco (generic blend of ecto and endo, not sure how many species) and both systems have worked. which is better? Dunno, never seen a lab style test run with a control, system with and system without using no other variables.

I generally will suggest myco application when planting up on sites that have had no vegetation for a few months or more but planting in established beds and such I dont usually bother.

I would like to see a magnication of a view of soils or hydroponic runoff when using myco and different ferts like organics (kelp, guanos etc) vs non organic ferts like 20-20-20 or what not. time lapse evidence of effect on the myco.

I have used myco a number of years ago when planting some hostas in pots, the ones I used the myco on had WAY more roots and much thicker roots by the end of summer than the ones that didnt. only catch, they werent all the same variety so in the long run the results dont mean much.

[TC3]

I like the idea of transporting soil from a planting site, even when there's no real means of transplanting actual roots.
There's a much higher chance of introducing (existing) mycorrhizae to a tree by means of the soil that existed around it, no ?

[Paul B]

TC. yup I have considered that too. and if you can get soil from around a healthy specimen of the same species, theoretically it would narrow down the odds of getting the right species of myco to your potential host, no?

[treesandsurf]

Do trees require mycor. in order to live?

Do you need a toilet to shit? Probably not, but it sure helps!

jp:D

[treelooker]

TC. yup I have considered that too. and if you can get soil from around a healthy specimen of the same species, theoretically it would narrow down the odds of getting the right species of myco to your potential host, no?Absolutely you guys are on to something. I've harvested fresh myco from forest oaks and inoculated urban oaks with it.

[Frans]

Mycor, is only one part of the system. When you read the adverts, they tout their product as being essential for healthy plants.

But it is only a small part.

So if you ignore/ mulching, water, soil tests, aeration etc. the mycor will not live anyway.

So thats why I say 'snake oil'.

Also I have read that mycor. is photosensitive and much of it is sold in clear plastic containers.

Have you ever introduced worms to the soil?
They leave if they dont have the essential foods and environment to stick around and do their job. Been down that road.

We as humans tend to want to wave a magic wand and 'cure' what ails us.

The fact is, in order to make a substantial positive change to a tree's health and continued optimum growth, we MUST pay strict attention to the ENTIRE system of the tree.

Also, the adverts. for the mycor companies say that their product can 'bring' a declining tree back to health. 99% of the time this is untrue.

Just dumping some mycor around the tree and watering it in, is ineffective.
Thus, I say 'snake oil'.

Ever seen that product called 'Thrive'? Modern day snake oil salesmen.

[Paul B]

Superthrive? try putting a drop of it in a glass and leaving around for a few days.
I wonder why we dont seem to see any lab approved tests of these products, if they are as world chaning as they tout, wouldnt the patents be invaluable?

[NickfromWI]

I've been wondering about this superthrive stuff. Mostly because they are headquartered about 10 minutes from my house. Maybe I should pay them a visit.

love
nick

[RIVERRAT]

The point Paul brings up is why I stated false to your question Frans.
In different environments whether man made or what ever plants can survive
with out it's presence

[Frans]

Check out this web site. Grow your own mushrooms:

http://www.fungi.com/kits/index.html

[treetx]

Better yet, http://www.potseeds.co.uk/mushrooms/ ;)

[Mike Maas]

I like the idea of transporting soil from a planting site, even when there's no real means of transplanting actual roots.
There's a much higher chance of introducing (existing) mycorrhizae to a tree by means of the soil that existed around it, no ?

I'm going to pull a few quotes off the web to make a point.


The average commercial agricultural soil contains about 5,000 species of microorganisms per teaspoon, which does not provide enough diversity to protect the plant from diseases. A healthy agricultural soil contains 15,000 to 20,000 species, including 5,000 to 8,000 species of fungi.

A teaspoon of healthy soil contains 600 million bacteria, 100 to 200 micrograms of fungal biomass, 10,000 protozoa, and 20 to 30 beneficial nematodes. It also contains 200,000 to 300,000 microarthropods per square meter

There are a couple of ways to increase the diversity of beneficial bacterial and fungi in the soil. One is to buy a commercial inoculum, but such mixtures generally contain only about 80 species, which is not enough. It's better to use compost, as there are usually between 15,000 and 25,000 species in a compost pile, most of which are beneficial.

Mycorrhizal fungi infect roots and form symbiotic associations with most plants. The basis of the symbiosis is that the plant gains improved nutrient and water uptake and perhaps enhanced resistance to pathogens. The fungus gains access to the plants' photosynthate.

I want to speak to this last quote, because it has always made me wonder about commercial inoculums (and the other quotes speak for themselves).
If the spores are viable (LOL!), and they infect the plant and use photosynthates, is this not a stress when too many fungi gain access to the plant?
I assume the fungi reduce sugar levels to the point the fungus start to die off, and then as the plant recovers, a balance is found, but is this better than a slow, natural build up of fungi?

[treelooker]

I assume the fungi reduce sugar levels to the point the fungus start to die off, and then as the plant recovers, a balance is found, but is this better than a slow, natural build up of fungi?Of course not, but "slow" is not a good way to go on a teetering tree when fast is possible. There is a use for introduced products, to jump-start the natural process. this from the phc ceu article:

Earthworms, arthropods, and other organisms aerate the soil and convert organic matter and minerals into forms more available to the tree. A number of references have reported that one cup of undisturbed native soil may contain the following: 200 billion bacteria, 20 billion protozoa, 100,000 meters of fungi, 100,000 nematodes and 50,000 arthropods. There are ways to encourage beneficial soil organisms:
• Use organic mulches for weed control, and amend the soil with composted organic material to provide a food source for soil organisms.
• Avoid over irrigation and excessive use of fertilizers, so the organisms do not drown or burn.
• Irrigate during periods of drought. Soil organism activity may be reduced due to dry soil conditions that are common in certain times of the year.
• Avoid unwarranted pesticide applications. Some fungicides, insecticides, and herbicides are harmful to various types of soil organisms.
• Use organic mulches to reduce soil compaction forces, moderate temperature, and maintain soil oxygen levels needed by beneficial soil organisms and roots.
Uncompacted soils have less root rot because they have better drainage, thanks to more pore space that air and water travel through. This pore space helps define the soil’s structure.

[Mike Maas]

None of that speaks to overdosing soils with what, at high levels, could become parasitic.
Notice there isn't a bullet on your list for adding mycor.
Arborists went through this with nitrogen, a little naturally occurring nitrogen is good, so a lot must be better. You are picking one type of fungus and marketing it as if it is a magic bullet. That is simply not the case.

[treelooker]

None of that speaks to overdosing soils with what, at high levels, could become parasitic. You are picking one type of fungus and marketing it as if it is a magic bullet. That is simply not the case.
Hey I am not marketing anything. :P

Pisolithus is one cosmopolitan/promiscuous genus of fungi that does not decay. Mike, how does this parasitism work again? I thought it was tree weakness that opened it to infection by decay fungi. If there are too many Pisolithus spores or strands, they will just die off won't they?:?

[Mike Maas]

Pisolithus is one cosmopolitan/promiscuous genus of fungi that does not decay. Mike, how does this parasitism work again? I thought it was tree weakness that opened it to infection by decay fungi. If there are too many Pisolithus spores or strands, they will just die off won't they?:?

Did I say decay?
What is the difference between a symbiotic relationship, and a parasitic relationship?
The Mychorrizal fungi break through the bark and access the phloem. They suck out the photosynthates. In return, they can move some water and nutrients from the soil to the tree, that might not otherwise be available.
Now let's consider the tree which has a good root structure but has sustained an injury to the crown, like you doing a crown reduction. Now let's also say you sell a mycor injection at the same time.
The tree will undergo an imbalance, of foliage to total biomass, because of the trimming. It now has more roots than it needs, and will spend lots of energy re-growing those limbs you cut off, compartmentalizing those wounds, and all the other processes associated with injury recovery.
At the same time, this tree is in stored energy crisis, and it will now have millions of anthropogenic fungi attaching themselves to the root system, parasitically removing sugars. And I say parasitically, because the tree doesn't need more root area.
You ask if the extra applied fungi just die off. I don't know for sure.
I suspect if they incubate (or whatever you call a spore hatching) they initially attack the root, and whether or not they survive depends on available sugars, and then the other soil growing conditions.

[TC3]

So it does in fact come down to testing soil(s). Why do I feel so fatalistic about it, then ? Our soils are shit... What's to test ??? "Gee, I wonder if the compact clay is off-balance ?" Sometimes, I go off the cuff with diagnosis. Sometimes it's justified. Start at "square-one" for every little thing ? Why ???

[Mike Maas]

After doing several soil tests you should start to see patterns in your service area, but there are times when you are just stumped on a diagnosis, then you can rule things out by process of elimination with a test or two.
Clay soils around mature trees are best improved from the top. Compost and mulch, not squirting what may or may not be viable spores, of a small sampling of what may or may not be native, into soil that may or may not support their growth, on what may or may not be a tree that will benefit (or hurt) from their being there.
Another good approach is to core aerate and rake compost over the area. If the soil conditions are right, the fungi will come. If you do your soil amendments and want to add a bucket or two of some good forest soil, go for it!

[Stumper]

Mike, Something to consider is that many trees are planted far outside their native range. It is possible for me to drive 1/2 hour and steal some good Forest soil..... from a coniferous forest. I am caring for many hardwoods planted in alkiline clay that are hundreds of miles from the nearest forest in which such species occur naturally. I don't view mycorhizal innoculants as a magic bullet or panacea but I do view them as a possible and plausible aid to the health and wellness of local trees .Particularly when incorporated along with aeration, vertical mulching and top dressing with mulch. Might help. Unlikely to harm.

[stehansen]

This stuff was tried on the farms back in the 70's in my area and without any measurable success. There were these tanks of innoculum and they metered it out into the irrigation water. My Pest Control Adviser considered each of these tanks to be a "monument to salesmanship". Some of the users swore by the stuff but none of them are using it anymore. Justin not only are they out of their range of soil types but many times they are in a different climate and/or altitude also. The biggest example of this here is the soquel redwood trees that are from the coast by Santa Cruz. They are beautiful trees but they aren't really made to survive the 100 degree plus summer days or the more alkaline soil here in the Central Valley.