Any new stuff at TCI?

[treetrash]

Did anyone see anything at TCI that they could not live w/o? I didn't see anything earth shattering. I picked up a hank of Tachyon. The new "triple braid" climb line from from New England. The other new ropes... Samson lightning, the 30% lighter 1/2" with a single strand core and the 7/16" 16 strand from All Gear were fun to look at. (If your into that sort of thing).
I am excited about the new Petzl harnesses. Seems they are finally getting things figured out and for $250 a bargain compared to the other euro designs. Did I miss anything?

[MasterBlaster]

http://www.mommiesminute.com/forums/images/smilies/ThisThreadIsWorthlessWithoutPicssmi.gif

[Blinky]

It's not new but I've decided I can't live without a GRCS.

[arborworks1]

I'm Of the same mindset with the grcs, what was the show price(please don't hurt my feelings to bad)

[TC3]

I have to agree in part, TreeTrashTalker.
It's the networking & meeting people that is priceless at the Expo's. All the equipment is like, "Blah blah blah... I can't afford that..."

[Blinky]

I'm Of the same mindset with the grcs, what was the show price(please don't hurt my feelings to bad)

Regular price less 10%... I didn't buy one yet but it just made top of the list.

[No_Bivy]

GRCS = a MUST!

[arborworks1]

What was this new piece that bandit was unveiling. I keep hearing people talk about it but no one will elaborate.

[top hopper]

GRCS = a MUST!



Its a great tool for sure!

A must? I dunno about that! Ive made it this long without one just fine.

A porty suits me just fine.

[MasterBlaster]

Me too!

[TC3]

Porty is an art. A cheap tool that is invaluable in the right hands. I happen to be one of those people.
P.S. Tell me.... does anyone really use more than 1 1/2 wraps ??? That's not the norm, fo' sho'.

[arborworks1]

I will agree about the port o wrap. But the grcs opens up a whole new light on most jobs.

Maybe save an hour here and there but that over the course of time adds up.

Still waiting to get a chance for use on storm damage.

[top hopper]

I will agree about the port o wrap. But the grcs opens up a whole new light on some jobs.

Maybe save an hour here and there but that over the course of time adds up.



I agree, almost

[Hollywood]

Its a great tool for sure!

A must? I dunno about that! Ive made it this long without one just fine.

A porty suits me just fine.

OK top, next time I'll just leave the GRCS packed up in the truck!;)

[top hopper]

Well exactly WHY do think ive made it so long without one?

All my subs have one :D

[Skwerl]

So John, you know this 'Hollywood' character? Can you vouch for him? :P

[top hopper]

Yeah..... :roll:


Despite what you may have heard, hes OK! :lol:

[inztrees]

I like the new petzl rig is it out and ifso whos got it

[OTGBOSTON]

I have to agree with the petzl SRT (I think thats what it's called) I tried the treemotion and flex, liked the petzl best.............couldn't find it on their website though

[inztrees]

I got a brochure and now I cant find it I need 0ne

[treetrash]

Sorry for not taking any pictures. The Petzl Sequoia and Sequoia SRT will be available for purchase in mid January. I went to the show with intention of purchasing a Tree Flex but fell in love with the Petzl. Now get to save $200 bones. My Sherrill rep did not know if they we going to keep any in stock but said he would get one for me when they become available. I hope most petzl dealers will carry them. I don't have a scanner or I would share the brochure.

[Jamin Mayer]

Pics:? :D

[Jamin Mayer]

:big-tongue4: I want to see machinery!

[The Branch Doctor]

I agree. It's not as much fun to talk about new toys without pics.

[Frans]

some of the dealers were selling the grcs for..... less than 2300 bucks

[arborworks1]

I paid 2375 to get my grcs shipped 3 day from aerial equipment in illinois.

They advertise them for around 21 and some change in tree trader all the time.

[treesandsurf]

congrats arborworks1 on the purchase, I'm sure you'll be stoked!

jp:D

[FJR]

I paid 2375 to get my grcs shipped 3 day from aerial equipment in illinois.

They advertise them for around 21 and some change in tree trader all the time.

Dang! I know where I am going to get one now!

Congrats on the purchase :D

[Stumper]

Well shoot!
Hollywood, I was prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt but now that Hoppy has vouched for you I'll just have to put you on the suspect list.


:P

[treelooker]

I saw telescoping pole tools sold by marvin and wolfgarten and can't wait to try them. TC is right though; the real value is to be had in the seminars and in talking tree care with others. That is, unless you know everything already and can't bother with head gear.

The GRCS is a nice tool if you do a lot of storm but seems an extravagant expenditure for small companies. It's hard to imagine someone forking out thousands to save an hour or two now and then, but claiming to be too poor to buy educational gear.

O and if you want to see pictures of these gadgets so bad, why not attend? The cost is small compared to the benefit, and compared to what a good climber should be making.

[sotc]

if you do alot of removals its worth buying a grcs no matter how big you are

[Frans]

...The GRCS is a nice tool if you do a lot of storm but seems an extravagant expenditure for small companies. It's hard to imagine someone forking out thousands to save an hour or two now and then

With my business, I have 2-3 guys who help me out on jobs.
The GRCS has been one of the LEAST EXPENSIVE tools for my small business.
This is because with using the GRCS, I am now able to have just one person working the ropes and keeping the landing zone clear.

Every tree is a two (2) man tree. One (1) man in the tree (me) and one (1) man working the ropes and staging the brush.

This has saved me so much more money than having to break out the 'dog and pony show' of 3 or more guys working a tree.

So for me TreeLooker, the GRCS has been a lifesaver, not an 'extravagence'.

To each his own I guess.

[treetx]

I imagine if you had one, you would find more places to use one. I never bought one but then again, he who knows a lot needs little. ;)

[treesandsurf]

Okay, 4 pages and no pics! anyone have a shot of the new petzl saddle?

jp:D

[treelooker]

So for me TreeLooker, the GRCS has been a lifesaver, not an 'extravagence'. So who would be dead without it? I've used em and seen the advantages, but have no more lives with than without it. It is nice to lift big wood just by cranking a little handle, yes.

Is this what you are selling? If so, your endorsement should have a disclaimer. 8)

O and you're welcome, Richard. pm me some time to let me know the most and least useful things you heard, ok?

[Frans]

Is this what you are selling? If so, your endorsement should have a disclaimer. 8)



You dont know me. Check out the TB thread on the GRCS if you want to know what I am about in regards to the GRCS.
I also have a fiddle block, port-a-crap, and the knowledge to 'take a wrap' if I need to.
:)

[Bodean]

Did you two get a chance to hug at the show?

[squisher]

I've never used a GRCS, but I sure hope to one day. Really the price seems quite cheap to me when you look at all of the equipment needed to run a tree service/care company.

[Jamin Mayer]

The GRCS is a nice tool if you do a lot of storm but seems an extravagant expenditure for small companies.

:? I think an "extravagent expenditure" for a small company would be something like buying a brand new $45k truck used only for estimates or general foremans.--That would be a good example of being extravagent. (Which by the way, I see Wright Tree Service, Davey Tree Service, and Asplundh doing in my area).

However, the GRCS is a great tool for all sizes of compmanies. I am a "small" tree service and I have been running the GRCS for a year now. I use it 1 to 2 days per week. And when I do use it, I piece out some huge stuff. I used to us 4:1 mechanical advantage to lift stuff when rigging, but that got old and inefficient. This tool put me at an advantage to compete with the "larger" companies and get 9 of the 10 bids I do for removals.

Perhaps we have different trees here which means different demands for the GRCS. If you see the GRCS to be used only for storm jobs, then that is fine. However, trust me when I say that this "small" business didn't buy a GRCS to impress people with a shiny thing that attaches to a customer's tree.:what:

[Jamin Mayer]

I've never used a GRCS, but I sure hope to one day. Really the price seems quite cheap to me when you look at all of the equipment needed to run a tree service/care company.

You're right. My GRCS has the Harken #46 winch on it. Any body know how much it costs stand alone? At this web site (http://mauriprosailing.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=HARB462STC&Category_Code=SELFTAILING)it costs $1,769.25 dollars.--For just the winch! So, when I see it this way I do agree that the GRCS is very reasonable in price.:thumbup:

[Jamin Mayer]

Oops! I don't want to hi-jack the thread. Sorry. ;)

Where are those pics!!!:/:

[Koa Man]

I have attended at least 12 of these expos, going back to my first one, called the Arbor Age Expo in 1989. I have attended many seminars and have benefited from maybe 5. Most are so boring that I and many others walk out. I attended one rigging seminar and the speaker spent the entire time talking about this very complicated removal that his company did. From the slide show it did not look that difficult to me and thought most of the fancy rigging was unnecessary.

I go to these expos to look at new equipment and visit friends. I haven't attended a seminar at the expos since 2001, although I have attended 3 since then. I haven't attended a seminar given by Guy (treelooker), so my comments on boring and useless information does not pertain to him.

[treelooker]

re seminars, it is hit and miss and the misses are not fun. i went to hear this guy dunster, whose writing is really good, talk about tree risk. Extremely basic stuff, read every word from the slides, a snoozer. Went to hear him the next day to talk about using pictures as evidence and he had the times screwed up, thought he had extra so he repeated much of the previous day's talk before rushing through some photography stuff.

I was a little ticked, and let him and TCI know. If talks are boring and useless, all we can do is to write detailed comments and hope for better next time.

No Deva, next time I see Frans it won't be a hugfest, but I will shake his hand and wish him well. If he wants to turn off his processor and labor under delusions like the 1/3 rule guiding the arboricultural universe, well, he's got company.

smiley's talk on roots and risk was good, the mycorrhiza talk was very good.

[Stumper]

Guy, I wasn't privy to any prior discussion between you and Frans about the 1/3 rule but I'm going to stick my nose in just for giggles. Shigo and others have advanced arboriculture by orders of magnitude for those who will pay attention. For the most part ANSI A300 is good sensible stuff that promotes good tree care practices................. But rules of thirds are a highly defensible fallback position. From triangulation to determine distances, the use of the triangle in structural bracing, photography,architecture, the Fibonacci series, ancient viticulture to arboriculture. Rules involving 1/3 or a close approximation simply work. I believe that is because the universe was designed that way but for whatever reason even where a 1/3 rule is less that the absolute best in some area it is usually at least workable. I have no quarrel with our 25% pruning "rule" but we know that it may be too much for a senescent tree and even 50% on a young tree that is mostly symplast may be acceptable to correct a structural defect. When you wrangle all the numbers 1/3 probably would work just as well as an average acceptable pruning ratio as 25%....but since many tree people are given to excess and many clients want things pruned to extreme excess the 25% rule is helpful in keeping removal of leaf bearing wood down to acceptable levels for the trees.

[Frans]

No Deva, next time I see Frans it won't be a hugfest, but I will shake his hand and wish him well. If he wants to turn off his processor and labor under delusions like the 1/3 rule guiding the arboricultural universe, well, he's got company.


ahhh shucks thanks :wall:

Treelooker, are you sure you have the right person? First you mentioned me being a dealer for the grcs, and now you say I adhere to the 1/3 rule of removing material from a living tree?

You got the wrong guy friend.

My stance on pruning is, their are no absolutes. :surprise:

Each species of tree is unique, and each tree is in a unique stage of development which effects it's health, and the amount of material which can safely be removed.

I would say maybe 20 years ago I would have removed 1/3 of the canopy of a tree, but that is 20 year old techniques. Not what I do today by any means.
To give you an idea of what my philosophy in regards to my business practives is, I dont have picture of a chainsaw or bulldozer or crane in my biz logo.
I have a hand holding a tree:

Peace,

Frans

ps: just for contention sake, my views on Mycor are that for the most part, it is snake oil. I focus on compost teas, azomite rock powder, sea kelp and a host of other things to mix up a cocktail and apply with my soil injector. I take soil tests fairly often.

My experiance is that urban trees in decline (with exceptions, remember my 'no absolutes' rule?), suffer from things like soil compaction, grade changes, excessive Nitrogen, and other environmental changes far more than the soil being so sterile that a tree cannot grow at all. After all, the tree would not even be there without Mycor. right?

[Bounce]

That is perhaps the best (and shortest) summary of the 1/4 vs 1/3 pruning debate I've ever heard. Just wanted to give props Stumper. Well put!

[treetx]

excessive Nitrogen


:?

[Frans]

:?

Think LAWNS. Think TREES in LAWNS.

Got it?



Yes?





O.K. , thats my point :big-tongue4:

[FJR]

So are you trying to say there TOO MUCH Nitrogen in the soil???


lol sorry I had too :)

[treetx]

Glad you asked, I still can't see what he's on about.

Do lawns in California fix nitrogen in some way or is it an insinuation to fertilizers being used on the lawn? And if so, do you think the issue is with inorganic fert or just all high N fert?

[TC3]

ps: just for contention sake, my views on Mycor are that for the most part, it is snake oil.

I do not agree.

[FJR]

Glad you asked, I still can't see what he's on about.

Do lawns in California fix nitrogen in some way or is it an insinuation to fertilizers being used on the lawn? And if so, do you think the issue is with inorganic fert or just all high N fert?

I was just fooling around. I think frans is talking about excessive nitrogen being used on lawns having a negative effect on trees. Excessive potassium can also have negative effects.

[arborworks1]

Did anybody take any equipment pictures at the expo. I was planning on attending and got some unexpected delays in my schedule which prevented me from going.

I will agree that most lawns are excessively fertilized and watered around my area. California I could not speak of, but I would guess its the same. Got to have the greenest yard on the block right.

What about that tree next to your house that is stone dead and rotting?

As for the grcs If you save 4 hrs per week with it, its paid for in a month no problem. Work smart not hard.

[treetx]

I was just fooling around. I think frans is talking about excessive nitrogen being used on lawns having a negative effect on trees. Excessive potassium can also have negative effects.


It is hard to tell from his grumpy anti-social way what he is on aboot.

Nitrogen is the problem so he mentions compost tea (also high N) :?

Kelp is rather low N yet high P.


:wall:

[TC3]

Studies on mycorrhizae show that the average amount of species introduced is 64.
While it's understood that each species of tree has its own species of mycor, I believe that the introduction of myco into urban soils can & does make a difference.
The main argument seems to be that the myco already exist, & needs a release... much like trapped nutrients in an off-balance PH soil.
Not so, IMHO.
Michigan (southeastern, at least) is nothing but CLAY. Intrducing mycorrhizae is not snake oil. It's a step (one of many) in an attempt to ammend the soil within realistic boundaries.

[Frans]

I was defensive from Treelookers assult on me.

When I say 'excessive N" I was referring to what your typical homeowner does when they go to the hardware store and buys a product high in quick release N. and then sprays it on the lawn where the tree is also growing.


As for the Mycor, again it is situational. But overall remember that NO PLANT CAN GROW WITHOUT IT.

Is there a tree? Then it is getting Mycor. Otherwise it would not be there at all.
You would have an empty spot with bare earth.

Yes you can amend poor soils and Mycor. can do some good. However in my area at least, the basic problems are more closely related to other factors than simple Mycor.

For example: you can apply liq. or powder Mycor. until you are blue in the face, but if the fungus does not have a receptive environment (good soils and protective mulch), it will not survive and thrive.

TC3 mentions clay soils which can be amended by a whole host of things, Myco only being a small part.

[NickfromWI]

Maybe we need to have a mycorrhizal fungus thread.

Is there a way to look back after and see if the mycorrhizal fungus "took?"

love
nick

[Frans]

Is there a way to look back after and see if the mycorrhizal fungus "took?"

love
nick

Yes. Dig up some ground and check it out. You might want to check out this web site Nick:

http://www.planthealthcare.com/HT/Mycorrhizal

[Stumper]

.


As for the Mycor, again it is situational. But overall remember that NO PLANT CAN GROW WITHOUT IT.

.

Frans, What inspired that utterly ridiculous false statement?

[Frans]

uhhh cause its true?

Please prove me wrong stumper....

[treetx]

uhhh cause its true?

Please prove me wrong stumper....


uhh...better yet, why don't you have a retort better than "cause".



http://www.ffp.csiro.au/research/mycorrhiza/nmplants.html

I know stuff, me and Shakespeare are buds 8)

[Frans]

I think you guys are being unfriendly. All I am trying to do is learn. Whats the big deal?
Unwilling to school me?

See my thread 'Mycor'

[Stumper]

I think you guys are being unfriendly. All I am trying to do is learn. Whats the big deal?
Unwilling to school me?

See my thread 'Mycor'

Frans, You knothead. I am wounded. I consider you a true friend. You were one of thse who gave me good feedback when I queried about New Tribe saddles years ago. Because of your response I bought one. I harass you because I like you and find you to be a marvelously grumpy victim. I DON"T want to see that disgusting group hug picture but Frans please know that you ARE appreciated.....ya knothead.::lol:

[TC3]

As I understand it (pardon if this is elemental to some), Mycorrhizae are a beneficial fungi that have a symbiotic relationship with tree roots. That means that each party benefits...
The myco benefit because they feed on roots & therefore have a host in which to feed on ; they're happy.
The trees' response to this fungi feeding on their roots is to produce more hair roots >>> a goodness. Thus, the term symbiotic >>> it means that both parties benefit.
Good enough.
Do trees need Mycorrizae fungus ? Not any more that you or I need the common cold floating around to build our immunity. But it sure friggin' helps, no ???
Myco is not snake oil. For Crissakes, it's us taking nature out of nature & selling it back to us >>> as NATURE.
Forget the Circle of Life. Game over. We're trying like hell to re-create the conditions under which our trees lived a hundred years ago.
Why is that 'snake oil' ???
Sell us leaf compost, kelp, miconutrients, whatever it takes.
We have manipulated the enivronment to the extent that these measures are necessary.

[wiltingoak]

There are overall reductions in populations and ammending on the Beech families have presented measurable results.

Also, what they can do is literally contact moisture, translocate it into the hair roots of the tree that's providing the carbohydrates in return. In a sense, many trees could never survive without them.

[sotc]

http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=17&

[Frans]

As I understand it (pardon if this is elemental to some), Mycorrhizae are a beneficial fungi that have a symbiotic relationship with tree roots. That means that each party benefits...
The myco benefit because they feed on roots & therefore have a host in which to feed on ; they're happy.
The trees' response to this fungi feeding on their roots is to produce more hair roots >>> a goodness. Thus, the term symbiotic >>> it means that both parties benefit.
Good enough.
Do trees need Mycorrizae fungus ? Not any more that you or I need the common cold floating around to build our immunity. But it sure friggin' helps, no ???
Myco is not snake oil. For Crissakes,

My understanding of the relationship betwix roots and mycor. is that roots are unable on their own to uptake nutrients.
They require this 'agent' Mycor., to enable the roots to uptake nutrients.

Without Mycor, trees cannot survive.


I say 'snake oil' because each and every tree (with the exception of some kind of weird plant(s) from Australia), has this fungus present.
Sure some soils are deficient, but the majority of stressed and declining trees are deficient because of other factors unrelated to Mycor.

All the studies I have read point to new plantings or plantings within greenhouses where the soil is sterile.

Am I incorrect?

[sotc]

i beleive they just up take moisture and nutrients more readily

[sotc]

this is the product i use on stressed trees, pre and post construction, and new installs

[tntree]

My understanding of the relationship betwix roots and mycor. is that roots are unable on their own to uptake nutrients.
They require this 'agent' Mycor., to enable the roots to uptake nutrients.

Without Mycor, trees cannot survive.


I say 'snake oil' because each and every tree (with the exception of some kind of weird plant(s) from Australia), has this fungus present.
Sure some soils are deficient, but the majority of stressed and declining trees are deficient because of other factors unrelated to Mycor.

All the studies I have read point to new plantings or plantings within greenhouses where the soil is sterile.

Am I incorrect?
Jumping in the middle here
Shigo taught me, Trees cannot live without the symbiotic partnership they have with Mycors. Native Mycor fungi is alway's present except where humans have killed/sterilized/poisoned the soil. There are over 5000 types of fungi not all have been studied completely. Living soil is still largly a mystery to humans.
I believe the "snakeoil" mycors to be beneficial in some situations probably less than more. The problem I have with them is my understanding that they may not overwinter, in MN anyways and that the native's will usually out compete them eventually . Experts do not agree on there overall efectiveness and delivery systems using city chlorinated water may kill them. I think they do help in the right situations and they certainly do no harm (?), I do remember Shigo telling us that you could go out and collect some forest soil and incorporate that into your planting if you believed it to be lacking in mchors for some reason.

my2cents from the little I know about the subject, and my prideful picture of a great tree teacher

[MasterBlaster]

What is that crazy shirt he's wearing? Air guitar with a tree? LOL!

[tntree]

What is that crazy shirt he's wearing? Air guitar with a tree? LOL!

10-4 a one of a kind "Alex playing a Tree guitar" Tshirt. We gave that to him during a 3 day MN workshop in 1990. I never could have imagined as a tree climber, I would be looking at trees under a microscope. I learned more about trees from him in those 3 days then I ever have prior or since. God rest his soul.

Sorry derail

[treelooker]

you could go out and collect some forest soil and incorporate that into your planting Bingo. And Frans, there are also studies on using the packaged stuff on mature trees by Bartlett and independent researchers.

[TC3]

Awesome pix, TNT !
Weird question : I was working a property this past summer where my client had a pile of woodchips left over from spring (he used them as mulch). When I went to disburse the pile, it was full of gold-colored strands of fungus, like what Reed had described in an old thread as being Mycorrhizae ?
Was it myco, or some other fungus ? It was interesting.

[RIVERRAT]

This is because with using the GRCS, I am now able to have just one person working the ropes and keeping the landing zone clear.

Every tree is a two (2) man tree. One (1) man in the tree (me) and one (1) man working the ropes and staging the brush.



I am not understanding how the GCRS removes one groundman from the picture any more so than the use of a regular porty?
If you need to lift or pull a limb I can see it. But in every day work where one just needs the friction for control I am not getting it.

[Frans]

I am not understanding how the GCRS removes one groundman from the picture any more so than the use of a regular porty?
If you need to lift or pull a limb I can see it. But in every day work where one just needs the friction for control I am not getting it.

One man to hold the limb with a porty and the other to nibble off brush to clear a small landing zone.
One guy can do this effortlessly with the GRCS because it is self tailing.

Their are other examples, but that is the first one I thought of.

A crane is the ultimate lifting lowering device, a GRCS is next in line, a porty is next from that, figure eight after that, taking wraps at the bottom of the list.








----I am not a salesman for the GRCS. Just an enthusiastic user of one, TreeLooker. :P 8)

[MasterBlaster]

What does self tailing mean?

[MasterBlaster]

What does self tailing mean?

[Frans]

When you wrap a rope around a porty or branch or any type of drum, the rope exiting has to be either held by the operator to keep it from slipping or tied off.
The grcs grips the tail end of the rope so you can continue to tighten the rope, but it will not slip and loosen.

A power winch, like on trucks or a chipper, has one end of the cable bolted to the winch drum so the winch can pay out the cable.
With the grcs, you can take the bight of the rope, flip it onto the drum, and the drum will hold/grip the rope.

dont know if that is a good explanation or not....

[lumberjack]

However, you can tie off a porty lick-a-d-split.

The self tailing feature is most useful for lifting, IMO.

[No_Bivy]

Both are necessary IMO

[sotc]

id put the hobbs over the porty;)

[Frans]

Nobivy, I agree. It is good to have the right tool for the job in your arsenal. They all have their place

[stehansen]

Wouldn't the tree already have the mycor in it's roots when it comes from the nursery?

[RIVERRAT]

However, you can tie off a porty lick-a-d-split.

The self tailing feature is most useful for lifting, IMO.
There are things you can do with a GCRS that are difficult to impossible with any thing else.

But Carl makes my point. One guy can still lower a good size limb & tie it off using a while suspended using a regular porty. Then the groundy can come forward & cut.

I have not yet been convinced about the GCRS. I have used one many times. Not having it, I can come up with other options. Not as fast but not so slow that I would consider spending $2300. Not at this point any way.

[Dave Shepard]

Porty is an art.
P.S. Tell me.... does anyone really use more than 1 1/2 wraps ??? That's not the norm, fo' sho'.

I did, once. The climber told me to take two wraps (3/4" bull rope) and "let it run" I did, and when the 40" DBH pine he was in stopped flailing, he thought maybe only one wrap next time.:O :lol:


Dave

[Frans]

I have not yet been convinced about the GCRS. I have used one many times.

Just curious, Do you want to be convinced? :?

[tntree]

Wouldn't the tree already have the mycor in it's roots when it comes from the nursery?
10-4, "With" its mycor. Trees cannot survive without them.
Strange that the creator made tree roots that cannot absorb the essential nutrients they need. Symbiosis, amazing higher order

[gf beranek]

"Trees cannot survive without them.
Strange that the creator made tree roots that cannot absorb the essential nutrients they need. Symbiosis, amazing higher order"

Thanks, Dave. Yeah, it makes me wonder which came first sometimes.

As far as the GRCS goes, RR, it's like a lot of things we can get by without, until you step up to the level where it's needed. I thought $2400 was a lot too until I figured out the amount of time the machine saves in the long run. The cost, really, is nothing compared to what you lay out for all other business expenses. And that machine will make you money.