Those Cali fires!!!

[MasterBlaster]

Man, it's like Armageddon! I sure hope the weather does something positive, like RAIN!!! Lordy!!! :\:

[Paul B]

Just saw the info on the evening news here, looks nasty!

lotsa fires in Malibu etc, no fun indeed.

[MasterBlaster]

I'm watching Anderson Cooper on CNN.

[NickfromWI]

I didn't get evacuated this time, but I did have some trees to climb on Sunday in Malibu/Santa Monica Mountains area that I didn't get to climb.

We never had "fire season" in WI!!!!

love
nick

[Frans]

I didn't get evacuated this time, but I did have some trees to climb on Sunday in Malibu/Santa Monica Mountains area that I didn't get to climb.

We never had "fire season" in WI!!!!

love
nick


Hi Nick!

[Old Monkey]

SoCal can burn well into the holiday season.

[gf beranek]

And you know every homeowner's insurance rates will go up to pay for the rebuilding of those match boxes.

[Skwerl]

Jerry, we have the same phenomenon here. Everybody pays higher insurance rates to rebuild the houses on the coast after the hurricanes. At least we don't get hurricanes every year, I can't remember the last year that Cali didn't burn.

[gf beranek]

Recently a lot of insurance companies pulled their policies out from under the homeowners that live in the Russian River flood plains. I'm usually not one to go to bat for the insurance companies, but it floods every year in Gurneville and it's about time people take a little responsibility for where they chose to live. A few have actually raised their homes above the high water levels. And more are bound to follow.

[squisher]

Yup choose wisely where you plan to invest in a piece of earth. If I was a farmer I'd live on a flood plain, but I still wouldn't have my house sitting where it could be constantly flooded. I live about 1500' higher then our 'city' here, ya I get more snow but when it melts it all runs downhill into town. About the only thing I'm susceptible to would be fires, but I figure so many rich people are building new houses all around me that my shack will be well protected just for being in the 'neighborhood'.8)

[gf beranek]

A friend was contacted by his insurance company and told his premium was inadequate to cover for flood damage, because he lives by the Noyo River. He contacted them and said, "Yeah, I live next to the river alright, 200 feet above it!"

[wiltingoak]

I foresee a huge shucking of responsibilities on behalf of the insurance industry coming for So. Cal. Ever court case, sought after repeated denials, will ultimately go to a bench of a Bush/Gonzales appointee who will favor the industry, not the policy holder.

[Frans]

I foresee a huge shucking of responsibilities on behalf of the insurance industry coming for So. Cal. Ever court case, sought after repeated denials, will ultimately go to a bench of a Bush/Gonzales appointee who will favor the industry, not the policy holder.

I agree with you Wilt.

Remember that case where the insurance company refused a claim because they said the water was 'riseing' water so it fell under the definition of flood water, not storm damage?

The suit was countered by making the point that without the storm there would be no riseing water!

Damm insurance companies never lose.



My understanding of the origin of the insurance companies began with Loyd's of London. They would approach a foundering ship and offer to 'save' it at the cost of the cargo of the ship.
If they said no, they would leave and all hands would be lost.

Also setting false lighthouse lights on the rocky shoreline to ground ships on the shoals.

[vharrison]

Wow 500,000 evacuees. That is hard to imagine.

[MasterBlaster]

I can't believe there isn't a fireproof shingle yet. On a brick home, you could sit and watch the fire blow through.

[darkstar]

Asbestos shingle,
Dang near fire proof.

[MasterBlaster]

So why don't the building codes force those asbestos shingles on people living in areas that routinely burn?

[Frans]

They do, MB. Wood shingles are outlawed in new construction. Folks having wood shingles on their homes prior to this law, well, have them.

[vharrison]

Drag racer Don Phrudomme's house is in danger. Any Cali TreeHousers being evacuated? I can hardly believe these fires.

[wiltingoak]

"Also setting false lighthouse lights on the rocky shoreline to ground ships on the shoals." Frans

That's how Key West became to be!!

Sounds like the fires will start abating by tomorrow night...when the Santa Anna's die down...according to the NWS.

What's really sad is the intensity of some of the Big Bear fires, those Ponderosa forests won't come back.

[treetx]

I'm watching Anderson Cooper on CNN.


Quick, switch to the news!

(cnn/fox/msnbc are entertainment)

[top hopper]

Strange-

I just got of the phone with 2 clients in consecutive converstations.

I was calling them to schedule work. They both sounded shaken up when they answered....

The first client told me she has relatives whom are fire fighters and are working the SoCal fires.
The second told me her neice was just informed to evacuate her home due to the fires.

It was just odd to speak with 2 different people within a 10 minute timespan, both residing here in Minnesota yet still very affected by the SoCal fires. Small world I guess.

[wiley_p]

One acre of Manzanita burning has more thermal energy than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, Asbestos don't help once that heat source gets going. Concrete will burn, everything burns once enough heat is present. Either the winds will lay down or they will drive the front to the Pacific. What I find curious is why there is no outcry about how the government has left these people hanging, where are the bleeding hearts? Folks who have not gotten to work the Southzone fires would be truly impressed, Imagine lava moving downhill at 80mph.

[No_Bivy]

:O ......

[Frans]

I would like to see sat. photos of the fires.
Anyone know if their are any?


Nick the splicer is surrounded by fires but he is o.k.

[Skwerl]

Here you go Frans, this is what I could find in 2 minutes.
http://www.weather.com/maps/news/forecastsummary/locationsocalfires_large.html

[Stumper]

I am a heartless jerk. I have little sympathy for people who build homes in an area that has historically been subject to frequent brush fires. This isn't to say thta I have NO sympathy I just don't think that the guv'mint ought to do ANYTHING to bail out people. Build in a fire prone area or in a floodplain below sea level and you can buy your insurance and or take your chances. 1 family's house burns down and we say that is a shame and expect their life to go on. 10,000 houses burn in the same area in the same week and suddenly it is everyone elses responsibility to make them more than whole. Phsaww!

[Skwerl]

Justin, you heartless bastard. :P

[MasterBlaster]

That's why I don't live in Florida.

[Frans]

Here you go Frans, this is what I could find in 2 minutes.
http://www.weather.com/maps/news/forecastsummary/locationsocalfires_large.html

thanks Skwerl.
The smoke plum extends PAST Catalina!

Much worse than the Oakland Hills Firestorm that I went through

[Skwerl]

That's why I don't live in Florida.

Central Florida is hardly at risk, Butch. I'm 50 miles from the east coast and 100 miles from the west coast. The worst winds are always on the NE quadrant of the storm, so I'm on the weak side of storms hitting the east coast and I've got 100 miles of land between me and the west coast. We simply don't get the 100+ mph winds here in the Orlando area. The last hurricane force winds (not tropical storm winds) that hit Orlando prior to 2004 was back in the mid 1960's.

Tornadoes spawned from thunderstorms are more dangerous than the big storms.

[MasterBlaster]

Same diff. ;)

[Al Smith]

There is no place on the continent you can escape disaster.You have the fires, mud slides and earth quakes on the west coast. In the Southern east coast and gulf states you get to deal with hurricanes. The upper east coast and New England states those "Nor Easters that will freeze the business off a brass monkey.Here in the midwest you get to deal with blizzards and tornadoes.

I never figured why in the world anybody would build in a flood plane or high fire area or known hurricane area but they do.Insurance companys by the way do not loose money.In a case like this big fire they just don't pay,simple as that.

[MasterBlaster]

There is no place on the continent you can escape disaster.

True, but central Louisiana is a historically meteorological safe place. ;)

[wiley_p]

thanks Skwerl.
The smoke plum extends PAST Catalina!

Much worse than the Oakland Hills Firestorm that I went through

Frans you should get out more.

[wiley_p]

I am a heartless jerk. I have little sympathy for people who build homes in an area that has historically been subject to frequent brush fires. This isn't to say thta I have NO sympathy I just don't think that the guv'mint ought to do ANYTHING to bail out people. Build in a fire prone area or in a floodplain below sea level and you can buy your insurance and or take your chances. 1 family's house burns down and we say that is a shame and expect their life to go on. 10,000 houses burn in the same area in the same week and suddenly it is everyone elses responsibility to make them more than whole. Phsaww!

Ditto! I used to have a hard time seeming concerned when I was working fall fires in the "urban interface" areas. I thought they were whining idiots for building in a fuel type like those canyons.

[Al Smith]

True, but central Louisiana is a historically meteorological safe place. ;) So far so good but don't forget the golden BB.There you are,in the back yard sipping a cool one.A mile overhead a goose flies over that has swallowed a marble.At just that precise time yon goose lets loose,oops,bonk.:O

[stehansen]

The California Dept. of Forestry website is down because of unusually high traffic. That's usually the best place to get California fire info.

[Al Smith]

It seems the internet is running a tad slow.I don't doubt this fire has something to do with it.I might also add that my wife tried to order some things yesterday from Calfornia but the phone system is screwed up because of the fire.What a mess.:(

[Frans]

It seems the internet is running a tad slow.I don't doubt this fire has something to do with it.I might also add that my wife tried to order some things yesterday from Calfornia but the phone system is screwed up because of the fire.What a mess.:(

HA! So it is true that hollywood, CA. IS the center of the universe!

No wonder the gov. is so anxious to divert resources in a timely fashion to fighting this fire.
Not like Orleans.

[wiley_p]

Curious, I just heard a statement from FEMA that they are new and improved and things will be handled differently in CA. Funny There have been no improvements in the graft and waste in NO since the inception of the "recovery" effort. The last thing the folks in CA want is the government "helping" out.

[Skwerl]

Frans, here's another interactive map of the wildfires.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/61516?gt1=10450

[wiley_p]

The photo of the column on the Magic fire is nice, Spots like that are where Darin and I used to work (Often it was my module that was creating a column like that) Splitting the head is fun!

[Paul B]

looks like BC sent a bomber down, Martin Mars (the Hawaii Mars model) water bomber, 27,000 liter pickup in like 15 seconds, add flight time and dump it!

http://www.martinmars.com/aircraft.htm

http://www.martinmars.com/images/gallery/3.jpg

[MasterBlaster]

Hell yeah, kick some bloody ass! :thumbup:

[stehansen]

Thanks Canucks!

[squisher]

Yah those planes are the bomb(heh heh), they were up here back when Kelowna was on fire.

[Al Smith]

This is very devestating to those that live in that area.The loss of property and habitate is enormous.Now the after math.Every insurance company in the country will raise their rates,just like from the hurricanes .In addition they will send the price of building materials nation wide through the roof.

California will raise everybodys taxes.The feds will raise the taxes.We all get to pay one way or 'tother.

[Frans]

Welcome to CA. NOW GO HOME.


:)

[Rotax Robert]

Mudslides will be next in store for those burned off areas

[wiley_p]

Mudslides will be next in store for those burned off areas

Yes, another part of the cycle of that ecosystem. It will be forgotten as well in about 15 years, then another big burn will come thru and everyone will be "devastated at the loss" Whatever, its been that way in Southern California for a long time. Folks want to build and live in an area that BURNS and has burned for a good 2-300 years for sure, Either they know the risk and accept it, or are ignorant of their surroundings and history. Cry me a river.:blob6:

[Old Monkey]

Ditto! I used to have a hard time seeming concerned when I was working fall fires in the "urban interface" areas. I thought they were whining idiots for building in a fuel type like those canyons.

I still feel badly for folks but isn't any big surprise their houses are burning. If I was down there I would not be taking risks to save those homes. The first instructor I had in wildland fire put it this way, "Should you run to the head of the fire and save that house? First ask yourself, 'Is that my house?' 'No it isn't,' second, 'did I start that fire?' No."

[Al Smith]

I empathise with them also.A lot of things are just common sense.People stick houses on outcrops from unstable cliffs and the first earthquake the house slids down the hill.On the east coastal regions they build on stilts on the beach front.Along comes a big wave driven by a hurricane and good bye house.

The choice of building materials enter into it.Masonary works just fine here,no earthquakes.In south Florida with a moisture problem it's just about manditory.In those southern California semi desert areas frame construction certainly is not the best choice for construction methods that's for sure.There are better ways but costly.Then just about anything is costly in California.

Oh yes,the mud will be next,heavens what a mess.:(

[Frans]

The first instructor I had in wildland fire put it this way, "Should you run to the head of the fire and save that house? First ask yourself, 'Is that my house?' 'No it isn't,' second, 'did I start that fire?' No."

I dont think I like your instructors attitude. Kind of like having a new worker pick and choose what type of work they will do on the job.

[wiley_p]

We worked on Type 1 handcrews Frans, Hothots are the best people on the planet at suppressing wildland fires in the roughest terrain that exists. You have to be smart about it, Fight fire aggressively provide for safety first. Believe me there isn't anyone that does a better job than those guys. We have saved countless homes, towns, tracts of timber, and are long gone on the way to the next blowup that the IA folks couldn't get a handle on. You don't often see Hotshots on the news because where we often were, everyone had already run away screaming. :evil:

[stehansen]

This whole management of wildland areas is a huge problem. My Dad tells me that before WWII there used to be small fires burning all summer because no one had the resources to do anything about it. Since WWII we have allocated the resources to putting out the small fires and as result we have huge tracts of wildland that haven't burned in many years. Add to the mix many homes now built in the wildland areas because they are so beautiful. In Mexico they don't have this problem because as soon as a fire gets going with Santa Ana winds after a little while it runs into where it burned last year or a few years ago and there is no fuel or little fuel and the fire goes out on it's own. If the Forest Service tries to do control burns to setup something like the natural mosaic of burned wildland then they get all sorts of flack from the people living in the homes there. Plus they take on a huge responsibility if the fires gets out of control. Here you go Wilting, and fighting the fires is also big business. Not by guys like OM but by the contractors that supply all the food, water trucks, bulldozers, lowboys, aircraft, fueling, mechanics, and the such. I went on 3 large fires as part of an OES strike team and I saw helicopters going from dawn to dusk dropping water on fires burning with a relative humidity under 30% and winds in excess of 20 MPH, you might as well be peeing on it as running the helicopter. I know that there might be stuff that I don't know, like it might not cost the State much more if the helicopter is going than if it is on standby and things like that but it seemed like such a waste to me. We were on structure protection and would be stationed at some house and would just hang around all day. Trying to think of ways to pass the time and getting standard city firefighter wages. After 8 hours we were on OT 24 hours a day. Came out to about $800/day for each one of us. I know that you can't do this on the cheap, but like I said it's big business. This has been going on for a long time and we are kind of backed into a corner.

[Frans]

I know, I am not putting down Hotshots, I have worked with alot of them.
The attitude OM related of: If it's not my house dont save it. That sucks. Bet OM did'nt mean to say that, but who knows? Bad attitude of his supervisor

[wiley_p]

800/day, funny as a squad leader and medic on a Hotshot crew I was getting just a few pennies over 10.00 and hour. :lol:

[stehansen]

I think that attitude that he wanted to present was; don't get yourself hurt or killed or get any equipment damaged because it isn't your job to save their house at any cost they took on this risk when they built in the forest and these houses in the wildland complicate the fire suppression effort immensely. Your job is to do your best within the parameter of doing so safely. Any time there is a firefighter death or serious injury the supervisor's actions leading up to the circumstances causing the injury/death come under scrutiny. So they tell you "you didn't start the fire, you didn't make them build their house here, so you shouldn't become emotionally invested in saving their house if it would mean undue risk to yourself, your teammates, or your equipment, to do so would be just be adding to the trajedy. If you can save it fine, but if you need to cut and run, do it, don't feel like you have failed, it couldn't be helped".

[stehansen]

800/day, funny as a squad leader and medic on a Hotshot crew I was getting just a few pennies over 10.00 and hour. :lol:

I know, and you probably got the hard jobs like putting in a handline in terrain too steep for a bulldozer while we were trying to keep ourselves occupied.

[Stumper]

Darin's quote was prefaced with "Running to the head of the fire" to save a house. The head of a fire is a dangerous place and NOT the place to be concentrating on structure protection.

[Frans]

I think that attitude that he wanted to present was; don't get yourself hurt or killed or get any equipment damaged because it isn't your job to save their house at any cost they took on this risk when they built in the forest and these houses in the wildland complicate the fire suppression effort immensely. Your job is to do your best within the parameter of doing so safely. Any time there is a firefighter death or serious injury the supervisor's actions leading up to the circumstances causing the injury/death come under scrutiny. So they tell you "you didn't start the fire, you didn't make them build their house here, so you shouldn't become emotionally invested in saving their house if it would mean undue risk to yourself, your teammates, or your equipment, to do so would be just be adding to the trajedy. If you can save it fine, but if you need to cut and run, do it, don't feel like you have failed, it couldn't be helped".


I included your entire post because it pretty well summs up the entire work ethic of every Hotshot I have ever known.


BUT, OM's post said something entirely different.

I dont agree with what OM said, in any way.

[Rotax Robert]

I see that a few beaners partook in the big wiener roast

[Old Monkey]

What the instructor meant was not to run to the head of the fire and be the hero but start at a good anchor point and flank the fire. There is no reason to be a hero for a structure. I have helped save houses, towns, etc. but never by endangering myself.

[MasterBlaster]

Damn skippy.

[Frans]

I first learned the concept of 'defensible space' from the Oakland Hills Firestorm.
Entire cul-de-sacs where abandoned because the people had no space in which to stage equipment and personell. So they fell back to the next group of homes.
Seems harsh, but sensible to me.
These people just dont want to make the effort to clear brush from around their homes, say its too expensive then cry when the firefighters wont kill themselves to defend it (the home).
These are the same people who raised a stink with the firefighters from the safety of the shelters as the fire burned....

So far, the total extent of this latest fire is larger in area, but less homes than the oakland fire have been burned.

We were all pretty angry at the City of Oakland because when the fire started, the fire dept. assigned some new (read politically correct firefighter trainees) to monitor the area in case of a flare-up.
It was a steep hill with lots of poison oak and these out of shape ladies did'nt want to struggle around on the hill so they parked and sat in the comfort of their trucks.

Thats one of the main reasons for the oakland hills fire.

[stehansen]

I see that a few beaners partook in the big wiener roast

:?

[Frans]

I see that a few beaners partook in the big wiener roast

:?

[sotc]

im seeing alot of pics of burned homes and green palms, are palms fire resistant? or will the heat kill them off in a few weeks?

[JamesTX]

I flew over the fires a few days ago at night - it was surreal to see the flames and smoke from that far up.

[stehansen]

I've seen a few palms burn and they looked like they were dead and then some little green fronds started coming out of the top a few weeks later and in a couple of months they looked real good. They had black marks up the trunk but that was all you could tell.

[vharrison]

I have seen that as well in Cabbage Palms!

[vharrison]

Wow, now Malibu is burning like crazy. I feel for the folks who are loosing their homes. I hope they all got out okay.