PISTON=CARNAGE!

[No_Bivy]

MS360 self destruct mode. Can I salvage it? The cylinder looks ok, piston is in pieces. I have no idea what happened. The bearing on the piston seems ok but the sleeve seems a bit worn. Is it worth fixing, shop says 300+.

[MasterBlaster]

Damn! And it messed up your rake, too! :\:

[No_Bivy]

a few more. some parts are pretty worn....

[No_Bivy]

Damn! And it messed up your rake, too! :\:

good eye!!!! no i ran that one over

[GASoline71]

Wow... judging by by how there is only one cir-clip layin there... the other one musta come out and grenaded that piston. The jug might be able to be honed out and reused with a new piston and rings. Aftermarket (read: made in china) cylinder/piston kits are cheap (100 bucks) and readily available for that saw.

Doin' a piston and jug is a fairly straightforward venture that even a novice mechanic can do. what the hey... give it a shot!

Gary

[Jonseredbred]

Put a 044 jug on her !!

[GASoline71]

Thought you could only do that on an 038?

Gary

[No_Bivy]

bigger jug ?:D

[Jonseredbred]

Thought you could only do that on an 038?

Gary

I dunno, I am not a stihl guy.

[MasterBlaster]

We won't hold that against you. :drink:

[Skwerl]

Looks pretty dry in there (no oil residue). But I'm no expert. I'll just second what Gary said, aftermarket jug-n-piston are very straightforward. Make sure you have the piston facing the right way.

[GASoline71]

Looks pretty dry in there (no oil residue). But I'm no expert. I'll just second what Gary said, aftermarket jug-n-piston are very straightforward. Make sure you have the piston facing the right way.

Yup... arrow on top of piston points to exhaust port.

Gary

[JamesTX]

bigger jug ?:D

Ain't nothing wrong with bigger jugs.

[JamesTX]

Yup... arrow on top of piston points to exhaust port.

Gary


I didn't know there was a front and back. What's the difference?

[darkstar]

Dang John it always somting huh?

[rbtree]

I didn't know there was a front and back. What's the difference?

Face it the wrong way, and the ring ends may catch on a port and break.

[No_Bivy]

Dang John it always somting huh?

yep, ........oh well, it could be worse:D

[stehansen]

Damn! And it messed up your rake, too! :\:
I had to go back and look.

[No_Bivy]

Al, where are you................????????????:D

[Old Monkey]

Wow, and here I thought that straight gas would make it go like gangbusters.

[No_Bivy]

Wow, and here I thought that straight gas would make it go like gangbusters.

I was using mix? The sleeve that holds piston looks/feels worn. Dude at the shop says a piece of the bearing race broke off and stopped the piston dead causing it to pull the bottom off. The bearings all look good, do I need to pull that apart too?

[vharrison]

Damn! And it messed up your rake, too! :\:

Hahahha

[Chisel Tooth]

I would take a good look at the bearings, and see if you have a damaged bearing. Which if a piece of race broke off you obliviously do.
See Ya
Mike

[Al Smith]

Anything can be repaired .That thing blew aluminum all over the place.To be on the safe side you should at least split the cases and clean the bearings.If just one tiny little chunk of residue gets caught in a bearing race that thing would come apart like a dollar watch.

I rebuilt an 038 mag II a few years back that had blew a piston,about like that.It wolfed both bearings.

It looks as though that saw either snagged a ring or spit out a circlip,hard to say.Whatever,made a mell of a hess.

If you decide to split it,check the bearings.Put a little side pressure on them and turn.If you feel any snags what so ever ,replace them.You can try and blow them out with air first though.

Worst case scenario is about half the price of a new saw if you replace the piston,cylinder,both bearings and seals,with new parts.On the other hand you might luck out and find a donor saw or good used parts.

If you do find a used piston,don't try using the used rings.Those old rings would have conformed to whatever cylinder they were in.Some times it works but more times than not it's not worth the agrivation.

If it were me,I'd put the parts in a box and wait for a good deal on parts or a donor .

For what it's worth,splitting the cases is not the big deal many think it is.If need be,I'll put the pictures back on from an old thread I started when I rebuilt the 38 mag.

I imagine it would take me 3 maybe 4 hours to rebuild that engine.If it takes a week,what the hell,you aren't going to learn any younger,go for it.

[Magnus]

If you are going to fix it up, be smart and do it all!
Crank bearings, seal's, cylinder/piston, carb rebuild(not just the membranes) etc.

There is a reason for this ugly mess, and it could be a bunch of factors combined.

The option to just replace the piston and hope it will go ok for a while is there too.

Parts saw it is right now, and you might find a good runner with busted ignition or something, you never know.

Not easy to say what you should do...

[GASoline71]

At the cost of a total rebuild... you might be able to afford a new saw... or a nice used one.

Full on rebuilds can get expensive...

Gary

[Skwerl]

Yup, you can spend lots of money replacing parts that aren't broken. I would be much more inclined to simply leave the bottom end intact and just go with the piston and rings, jug if needed. Judicious application of parts cleaner, compressed air nozzle and a bit of good old fashioned observation and common sense will usually be enough to make sure the bottom end is clean and won't grenade on you later. If you can spin the crank by hand without feeling any grit in there then I'd bet it's ok.

[GASoline71]

That would be the first bearing race in a saw I have ever heard of breaking. Sure it wasn't one of the wrist pin clips? I only saw the one in your pics.

Gary

[No_Bivy]

wrist pin clip,.... where do they go?

[sotc]

on the ends of the wrist pin which is the rod that the piston pivots on. goes through the piston

[Skwerl]

The wrist pin is what connects the piston to the connecting rod. The wrist pin clips go at either end of the wrist pin.

[GASoline71]

They are a little 3/4 circle clip. If they come out, which is rare but does happen, it can basically do what happened to your saw.

Gary

[No_Bivy]

Sounds like the culprit.... bearings feel fine. So can I put a bigger jug/piston on it? or go with the MS360. Bailey's I presume?

[GASoline71]

Sounds like the culprit.... bearings feel fine. So can I put a bigger jug/piston on it? or go with the MS360. Bailey's I presume?

Looks like Bailey's does not carry the aftermarket P&C for the 036/360. If the cylinder looks good... you can get just a piston kit for 33 bucks from Bailey's.

036/360 P&C (http://store.baileys-online.com/cgi-bin/baileys/5436?mv_session_id=j2Ga8Yed&product_sku=PKS%20036)

Just don't use the wrist pin clips that come with the kit... they are junk. Go to your Stihl dealer and get factory Stihl clips. Trust me on that... don't ask me how I know.

Gary

[No_Bivy]

thanks, how DO YOU KNOW?:D

[Skwerl]

Bailey's had a bad run of wrist pin clips a couple years ago. They have fixed the issue but it will dog them for many years, I'm sure.
;)

[No_Bivy]

Im about to attempt my first rebuild:O :O stay tuned. I'll need help.

[GASoline71]

thanks, how DO YOU KNOW?:D

John... I've done my fair share of 2 stroke top ends. Dirt bikes and saws... messin' with wrist pin clips is a royal PITA. Anyhoo... I have an 038 on my workbench right now that I'm replacing the P&C on for a buddy. It just so happens it is the same saw I put a piston kit in 8 months ago. Kit was from Bailey's.

One of the wrist pin clips came out and screwed the P&C up... so now I'm redoing it (again) with a new cylinder too. It is the first time I had ever had a clip come out of an engine i rebuilt.

After talking with a couple of Stihl saw techs (both over at Arboristsite), they told me to never use the clips that come in the aftermarket kits. Only use factory Stihl clips. :thumbup:

Gary

[GASoline71]

Im about to attempt my first rebuild:O :O stay tuned. I'll need help.

Good luck... it's actually easier than you think. Holler if you need any help mang!:)

Gary

[No_Bivy]

:/: I'm gettin' skeered:/:

[rumination]

John, I replaced the cylinder and piston on an 088 once. If I can do it then you definitely can.

[Al Smith]

John, I replaced the cylinder and piston on an 088 once. If I can do it then you definitely can. Besides all that,you don't have much to use.I mean you really can't use the saw the way it is.I might also add that it's not nearly big enough for a boat anchor.:P

[Magnus]

Keep in mind that this is not a common thing that happened. A few buck's for bearings and seals is worth evry penny. It is not easy to clean this out without splitting the case. You can't know for sure you got all out.
I see no reason to change cylinder if it is ok, but take a good look at intakeboot and all other rubber parts.

This has happend as a resoult of something else.
It should not happen.

[No_Bivy]

What should I look for in the cylinder, there is no scoring. THe rubber boot looks ok. How do I split the saw apart to clean ouot the bearings?

[Mike Maas]

Splitting the case is a bitch, and take special tools and know how. Unless the saw is pretty new, it's not worth doing the lower end.

The cylinder is made out of aluminum and then it has a paper thin coating on the cylinder walls of really hard metal called nikasil.
If there was impact on the edge of the ports, there may be some damage to the nikasil, that will need to be carefully fixed. The piston needs to go up and down past the ports without snagging. If you look closely, the factory chamfers those edges.

Not only does the piston have to be installed in the right direction, the cir-clips need to be oriented properly too, or the fall out.

I wonder which bearing race broke apart? If it's one of the lower bearings, the saw is junk. You can't replace the lower piston rod bearing, which means you need a whole new crankshaft, if it's that bearing.

The last four saws I bought were used, if you know what to look for that's cheaper than rebuilding. I just got a dolmar 6401, with a new piston and cylinder professionally installed, for $200, just to put it in perspective for you.

[Al Smith]

Splitting the case is a bitch, and take special tools and know how.
.

.
I'll agree to the point of being a pain in the butt to do but it really isn't that big of a deal.Good old Stihl lists a bunch of high priced pullers etc. and the proceedure of how to do it.Keep in mind however there is always more than one way to skin a cat.The whole thing just hinges on a persons experiance I suppose.

I personally would not trust a rebuild unless the condition of the crank bearings and crankshaft assembley were verified as good.Then also if the crank is shot,the saw is pretty much toast and just becomes parts.

In all my tinkering around,the only extreme rebuild I've ever done was on a Mac 125.The reason I went to all the trouble was because the saw is relatively rare.Something like this saw in question is not that rare and I wouldn't doubt that perhaps a good used replacement might be obtained cheaper than a rebuild.It just comes down to a question of economics and what you really want to do with the saw,lots of options.

[beelsr]

:/: I'm gettin' skeered:/:

no need to be scared.

get the real stihl wrist pin clips, they're like 80 cents apiece. Get a few extra because they're "springy" and you'll probably launch one across the room and lose it. And when you install them, the "open end" goes towards the top or the bottom - never to the side (in relation to the stroke movement, as viewed from the side of the saw).

[Jonseredbred]

After talking with a couple of Stihl saw techs (both over at Arboristsite), they told me to never use the clips that come in the aftermarket kits. Only use factory Stihl clips. :thumbup:

Gary

does that go for other brands?

[Al Smith]

does that go for other brands?What,the circlip or how it's installed.For what it's worth,even auto engines that use bushed rods and pistons have the circlips installed as was previously noted.

[No_Bivy]

Got the piston kit....Now I'm debating taking the crank case apart or just trying to clean it out. Maybe I should hire someone to do it. Stihl dealer wants 300buck........Maybe I'll experiment, I already bought a new saw.:O

[Skwerl]

I've replaced many jugs and pistons, never yet opened a case. Either put it together and run it or just throw out the whole thing. At this point you have almost nothing to lose.

[sotc]

DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!
nothing like peer pressure:)

[Chisel Tooth]

John do you know which bearing broke? You do know that the bearing integrity has been compromised, right? and will more than likely denigrate when spun at high speed,( shell the carrier out of the middle of it). I don't know what kinda prices that guy charges, but man that is really high. You can mail it up to me and I'll give it the once over for ya, if you like. Be glad to do it for ya.
See Ya
Mike

[No_Bivy]

F-F-F-F-Finally replaced piston. So far so good. ran a tank of gas through no probs. Hope it lasts.....anyway saw is back from the dead!:D

[Chisel Tooth]

Cool deal glad to hear you saved the saw.
See Ya
Mike

[Frans]

F-F-F-F-Finally replaced piston. So far so good. ran a tank of gas through no probs. Hope it lasts.....anyway saw is back from the dead!:D

Are you sure that improper fuel/oil mix or even bad gas was not the problem?

[No_Bivy]

dunno, same gas in all the rest. wrist pin looked a little worn?

[sotc]

the problem looks to be a grenaded piston:D

[Chisel Tooth]

I would like to see it up close and see if I can find the cause, from what I can see, it appears that something stopped the piston on the down stroke. As to what caused it I'm not able to tell from the pix.
See Ya
Mike

[Al Smith]

It just a guessing game on piston failure .Most likely the saw ate something that disagreed with it's system,so to speak .A carb bolt, a little chunk of sawdust,part of the air cleaner who knows.

I've seen grenaded pistons on Stihls that didn't do a thing to the cylinder which is very surprising,they must be pretty tough.

[No_Bivy]

it's DEAD again.....I'm guessing this is it. Rings are shot, some damage to jug on the exhaust side. I guess a new jug/piston is in order. Where can I find this, ....seems like this saw is outta date.

[CurSedVoyce]

I feel lucky I traded out just under 200.00 labor for a 036 in prime condition.... But then I did start the 200t thread on fixin it... Guess its just principle.... Bivy I too luv that 036 which I think is the earlier version of the 360. Hope you get it fixed man... Hey if nuttin else... good learning experience....

[woodworkingboy]

I have an 036, but stuck on an 034 case ;) I think those are definitely worth fixing up. Hope you get it sorted out. I found the jug at ebay.

[No_Bivy]

It lasted a long time with just the wrist pin fix.........It aint a boat anchor yet, I guess. Now jus have to fine the jug and such

[woodworkingboy]

If you're replacing the jug, you might want to eliminate the base gasket and up the compression a bit. Not sure if this is the right thread to go into details, but they do respond well to that modification.

[CurSedVoyce]

OK .... so you can up the comp on the 036 by removing the base gasket... I take it you have done this with good results cause you still have your 036?
hmmmmmm well I gonna remember that comes time for rebuild....
Thanks..
Hope I did not just derail this thread.... Sowey if I did.

[No_Bivy]

Al......?

[woodworkingboy]

Not to sidetrack the thread...you have to replace the gasket with a sealant, and check the piston clearance at the top of the cylinder. Those are basic modifications that are well worth it. PM me if you get to doing it and need help.

Jay

[No_Bivy]

cool...did neither last time:/:

[JonnyHart]

http://cgi.ebay.com/STIHL-034-SUPER-036-MS360-CHAINSAW-CYLINDER-PISTON-NEW_W0QQitemZ230284107975QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3 286.m20.l1116

Not too expensive... I dunno.

[CurSedVoyce]

Thanks Jay :)