Felling with D. Douglas Dent

[Burnham]

Last week I joined the rest of the C sawyers on the Mt. Hood N.F., both recerts. of long standing like myself, and a few new cert. hopefuls, under the eye of Mr. D. Douglas Dent. The man is a legend in the PNW, and elsewhere, as a sawyer of uncommon skill, and an innovator of felling techniques and safety training.

He's still arrogant and opinionated as ever, though through the years he seems to have redirected most of his harsh words to desk jockey agency administrators and federal OSHA types, with a special place in his "feelings" for lawyers (he has a long history as an expert witness in cases involving litigation resulting from chainsaw use). His manner with students who want to learn and pay attention is quite warm, though he teases unmercifully. The best defense is to give it right back at him.

No quarter is given to those who don't stay tuned in or fail to act professionally and take the job dead serious.

I like the man, I'll admit it. At 62 he carries not an ounce of fat and handles a big saw with ease. He can't be more than 5'6" and weigh over 130 lbs.

Here's some pics I took during my day in the field with him. The first is Dent talking about escape line from the stump using bored backcut. The third is my good friend Floyd gunning in the base of his face cut.

More to come.

[Burnham]

Another batch of pics: Dent gets right in there with the cutter when the back cut goes in...he watches your back like a hawk, a nice feeling.

Here he and Leo keep an eye out for loose junk overhead, then head out as she commits to the face. Finally, as with every stump, the post-mortem autopsy.

[GASoline71]

Cool Burnham... I would love to receive the training you guys get... Just don't have the FS background to warrant it.

Nice pics too.

Gary

[fishhuntcutwood]

Awesome! Makes me want to give up my last ten years of CG career and go talk to the FS for employment.

Cool Burnham.

[MasterBlaster]

I'll never fathom the need for such tall face cuts.

Nice pics!

[Burnham]

This series shows Steve setting up this older snag for the fall. He bored the guts out of the hinge to ease the wedging...especially important when the top is as weak as this one was. Heavy driving of wedges can cause stuff to come off the top and that ain't good when you're working at the base.

[GASoline71]

I'll never fathom the need for such tall face cuts.

Nice pics!

Come on out here mang!!!

Gary

[MasterBlaster]

That's no answer.

And I'm not talking about the underbed in the pic above, it's the one in the 4th pic.

[squisher]

I'll never fathom the need for such tall face cuts.

Nice pics!

To allow the holding wood to do its job longer.



Awesome pics Burnham, man I would love to go to a course like that.

[Burnham]

The photographer never gets in the pics, it seems. Here's some shots of the tree I felled.

For reasons of his own, Doug looked over the group and pointed to me. It was the most deteriorated snag of the day, and it's head lean was directly across the road, which was why it was coming down in the first place (all the trees we felled were identified as roadway hazard trees).

I took it 90 degrees to it's lead and when I test bored it found only about 20 inches of solid wood inside its' 40" dbh exterior. But it went where I asked it to go and Dent's only negative comments were I stayed at the stump a smidge longer than he liked to finish my back cut up to make a parallel hinge, and my escape path was too close to directly behind the stump. In my mind there were good reasons for my choice of escape path, but arguing a point like that with the man is not smart, and in truth he was correct.

Here ya go, a look at the stump and tree.

[Burnham]

Justin called it, Butch.

We know that as soon as the face closes, the hingewood breaks, and at that point no longer offers any directional control to the tree. In the woods, there are far too many things to brush against that can divert the trees' direction, so maintaining hingewood until the tree is closer to the ground is safer.

Also, the falling tree has acquired more speed and thus momentum in the direction you faced it when the hinge does break, which offers additional resistance to being diverted by brushing through the adjacent crowns.

It's just a more accurate way to fall trees.

[GASoline71]

That's no answer.

And I'm not talking about the underbed in the pic above, it's the one in the 4th pic.

I knew what ya meant...

I shoulda said the same thing Justin said... then Burnham (like always:) ) made it that much clearer. I have learned a lot from Burnham and Wiley over the last year when it comes to fallin' bigger trees. Main thing I learned was that my face cuts were too small.

Gary

[MasterBlaster]

I just don't get the physics of it.

[squisher]

I'm far from an expert myself but unless you're production falling I fail to see how a face cut could be to big really unless ya took it to a ridiculous degree. Burnham or others anydrawbacks you know of from to big of a face cut? And I don't mean to deep but to steep. Clear as mud right.

[NickfromWI]

Justin called it, Butch.

We know that as soon as the face closes, the hingewood breaks,

Hey, I never knew that. Cool!

Burnham, why was the trunk "thinned" with the saw? So that you're cutting through wood and not bark? Or was the saw just a hair too short?

love
nick

[GASoline71]

Hey, I never knew that. Cool!

Burnham, why was the trunk "thinned" with the saw? So that you're cutting through wood and not bark? Or was the saw just a hair too short?

love
nick

Nick... my experience with big Doug Firs is that friggin' thick bark is a PITA. It makes the cuttin' a lot cleaner and easier to see your cuts when you remove it.

Gary

[High Scale]

So much we can learn here, thanks all.

[Magnus]

If the face is bigger as he has and even more it takes longer til the hinge break's. Here we cut max 1/4 of the tree diameter in the face.
Min. 3/4 in the back/falling cut.
It is a bit of perferance and how the felling area looks. Sometimes you don't want the hinge to break at all, some want it to jump of the stump, others want to cut the tree first then release the hinge and in this way prevent the tree from turning.

[pete mctree]

Nice pics Burn, and some big wood to play with too:thumbup:

[Burnham]

Hey, I never knew that. Cool!

Burnham, why was the trunk "thinned" with the saw? So that you're cutting through wood and not bark? Or was the saw just a hair too short?

love
nick


Nick... my experience with big Doug Firs is that friggin' thick bark is a PITA. It makes the cuttin' a lot cleaner and easier to see your cuts when you remove it.

Gary

Nick, what Gary says is correct, though not the whole story. The bark is heavily furrowed on these trees, and having a smooth surface to match cuts at is more visible and thus much easier.

Since mature Doug fir can have extremely thick bark, if one goes only on the matching of the flat and sloping cuts on the outer surface of the bark when forming the face, one can actually create a dutchman at the wood tissue before the cuts meet at the bark...usually this only happens if the bark is 4+ inches thick and/or the bar is just about the same length as the tree is wide, but it is a factor to consider.

Another issue is that the weight of a large saw doesn't get carried by the dogs as well in that bark, they tend to tear it out as you are starting the kerf...so cutting some of the looser outer portion off allows the dogs to work more effectively, easing the burden on the cutter.

All of these trees were standing dead, in a range of rot condition. The same issue with poor holding of the dogs, and consequently the saw, as with the bark exist with the rotten wood. If you have found you have a rind of rot with solid wood a few inches in, removing it helps the dogs bite better there too.

But perhaps the most important reason to cut off both thick bark and outer rot is to allow effective wedging. Wedges will not impart lift when pushing on either bark or rot. They need to be in solid wood to do their job well. By removing bark where the wedges will be used, you get best function of the wedges, and also get to use the whole length of them rather than being held back from further driving by bark thickness.

Finally, as you suggested, if your bar is just a few inches short rather than double cutting, just lop off several inches of bark to simplify the work. On steep ground this can become very important, rather than just a convenience. 3/4 or full wrap handles let you cut effectively from both sides of the tree, but if you can't reach up high enough from the downhill side to match the uphill cuts, you are screwed.

[Burnham]

I'm far from an expert myself but unless you're production falling I fail to see how a face cut could be to big really unless ya took it to a ridiculous degree. Burnham or others anydrawbacks you know of from to big of a face cut? And I don't mean to deep but to steep. Clear as mud right.

Downsides that I have encountered are:

(1)With big wood you begin to end up with a very large chunk of wood to manhandle out of the face...sometimes boring vertically down through the wedge-shaped pie of wood to split it into two pieces is needed to make it more manageable. Here is one place that the Humbolt face offers an advantage. Consider the face cut technique Jerry B. shows so often in his High Climbers and Timber Fallers...designed soley to deal with the huge amounts of wood generated to make face cuts in the giants. You'd need a Cat to move traditionally formed face blocks, and even longer bars :O .

(2) Particularly when felling upslope, if you have a very wide opening the face does not close at all, leaving the tree still attached to the stump. Now there are times when this is desirable, and in arborist work you should consider this as a valuable technique. But if you then have to cut the log loose from the stump under any of the several binds that might now be in play, it can be a tricky job.

[Burnham]

I just don't get the physics of it.

Let's take it one step at a time, Butch. Do you see that when the face closes, the leverage placed on the hinge by the falling tree seperates the hingewood by tearing its fibres free from the stump?

[MasterBlaster]

I'm beginning to get it now. :)

[Burnham]

'nuff said then:).

[squisher]

:thumbup: Thanks Burnham, excellent information as usual. Very interesting points to think about.

[TheTreeSpyder]

Fan-freakin'tastic!

Love the high stretched fibers/tails like on the front of his book. These show the real work being done by tension fibers steering tree powerfully.

Once the tree is alive/breathing/ can move the hinge is 'loaded'. As long as the face is open; there is pull from this loading; when closed there is push; at detatchmeant/ tearoff the tree is more of a free agent. The close will force a tearing of the rearmost/ most powerful tension fibers. In a wide/steep face; we can keep the pulls from the tension fiber going over a longer distance/ degree of sweep; for more control of direction and impact.

If a tree achieves tearoff/ becomes a free agent early; and bumps an obstacle on fall path it is more likely to become 'distracted'/diverted from target. But, if the tree is still hanging on; the tension fiber pulls can still work to control the tree. These tension pulls are self adjusting responses; so if tree brushes obstacle on left, and gets nudged to the right, the left tension fibers can immediately self adjust automatically and work to pull the tree back against the sidewards push some. This control and a softer landing can be good friends to have. Of course the more tension force you use like this, the better rooted tree must be; and in an urban example the easier it is to break pipes and wires that the root base/'ball' is wrapped around from shifting underground in reaction to these increased pulls giving control over tree.

If we place obstacle in face, that is a dutchman; and gives early close and offers no relief so risks dreaded barberchair. If we only dutch 1 (lean)side; this offers the opposite side as relief; and far less chance of barberchair; more like some of the pics in Dent's felling bible (as pictured in attachment).

i try to explain similar in Dutch Push in side face (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Dutch%20Push%20in%201%20side%20of%20Face.htm) and how this gives kinda a tourqued effect; of tension pulling down on one side as compression pushes up on the other. In other words operating either sides of the face individually (as to open or closed) for more options; rather than generically as 1. These things can work in tree too. But, are so powerful; most advice is to be careful not to accidentally engage their powers; by making perfectly meeting cuts; and especially not cutting the horizontal cut too far; as this early close gives more push up the column of resistance; whereby slanted cut too far gives more of a flex; by pushing across the fiber column.

If there is an obstacle in path on Left; and we can get a dutch push from right, right before obstacle push on left; that is good too. Also, this change in compression point on lean or pull/push to side is more of a compounding pivotal change, than adjusting tapered hinge i think.

[Burnham]

One other downside that I just recalled...if your objective is maximizing harvested volume from trees, a large conventional face sacrifices some merchantable wood at the most valuable part of the tree.

Thanks, Squish.

[squisher]

Yah I've never heard/seen of anyone consistently using a traditional face cut for production falling, but to me atleast it would seem to be the 'cut' of choice were absolute control is the desired function. As in residential treework. What are your thoughts on the differences between using a traditional vs humboldt? Would you choose to use the humboldt in really any other situation besides production falling?

[The Branch Doctor]

Holy shit this is an awesome thread! Burnam, you're a stud. I've learned a lot from this and I'm loving it. I don't drop a lot of big ones but I still have to do them and threads like this keep me alive.

Hey spidey, you're a stud too! The info you guys give us is priceless, thank you!:D

[Burnham]

Spydey, it is interesting that Doug Dent has pretty much foresworn use of the swing dutchman due to the unpredictability of the degree of swing one achieves with it.

I expect he's as good with it an any one alive, but he finds it disconcertingly inaccurate to a sufficient degree to satisfy him.

But the physics are true and it does work.

[squisher]

I have done a small amount of production falling and fell many individual trees while working yarding. I would say that the 'dutchman' is mostly good to know about so that you don't end up doing it accidentally. Maybe something to try if you're experienced and feel that your other options are limited or maybe it doesn't matter so much if the tree doesn't lay perfectly and of course that it's safe to do so. That said it is a interesting and fascinating technique, just not one that I could ever see using in a residential setting.

[TheTreeSpyder]

i've had some luck with it; took me awhile to figure out what he was getting at with all the drawings and intersections of cutting paths! The larger across tree places more distance between the compression and tension; for more leverage.

i've played with it on the ground in medium stuff more; but really, most control and luck i've found is in the air with it; the model also works turned on it's side for horizontal sweeps around(just calcualte cut pattern so that down is lean side). Or, calcualting brushing another branch and getting the close right before that so that the push of dutch and obstachle push limb aside in tandem to steer away more surely; or run a "C" pattern around a lower obstachle somewhat. When rigging with it; have to orchestrate forces right; limb only has so much force to pull on rope tension fiber or tension fiber in hinge or compression in dutch; so using 1 can lessen the effect of the other; unless you can kinda walk the line between and gather both. On the ground; i'd mostly note here that there is real power in it; so don't accidentally invoke it with sloppy cutting/ keep your cuts square to each other. But also; a few times in real extreme side and forward leans; it has made me smile in awe. i wouldn't bet my life on it; but rather calculate i was making a better bet with it on occasion, than without it.

Fantastic topic and pics; these so timely with Beraneck's increase the riches here considerably; partially just by lending more awesome respect for Nature that we touch so often; but hardly any of us so lucky as to touch it in these extremes.

The high torn tension fiber tails you show are awesome. On the front of Dent's book he shows some with the sawyer and saw facing them. i all ways imagined that was like the 2 soldiers saluting each other on a job well done in the lay. The fiber pull to one side wouldn't be so extreme; if the pull to the opposing side was less.

[Burnham]

Of course the problem is the exact set of circimstances occur only once, so the experiment never is repeatable. You never can learn enough to guage what the response from the tree will be to the swing dutchman you set up that one time.

[Burnham]

Yah I've never heard/seen of anyone consistently using a traditional face cut for production falling, but to me atleast it would seem to be the 'cut' of choice were absolute control is the desired function. As in residential treework. What are your thoughts on the differences between using a traditional vs humboldt? Would you choose to use the humboldt in really any other situation besides production falling?

The main negative to the humbolt is that the downward sloping face of the stump greatly reduces the fuctionality of the stump shot that you want and achieve by setting the back cut higher than the face cut.

Imagine the tree falling...and striking another tree out front due to poor gunning or improper face cut technique. The tendency is for the butt to shoot back at it's stump. If you have a conventional face, leaving a flat facecut bottom, and 3 or 4 inches of stump shot, the butt is likely to hang up on either the front of the stump or the front of the hinge.

With a humbolt face, there is a slope to the front of the stump, and it is low, close to the ground. This gives the butt coming back a ramp to run up and jump over the stumpshot of the hinge, continuing back at the sawyer with quite possible ugly consequences.

Recall how I said that Dent chided me for my escape path being too close to directly behind the stump? This is why he said that. Escape at 45 degrees off of directly opposite the direction of fall.

[Burnham]

...I would say that the 'dutchman' is mostly good to know about so that you don't end up doing it accidentally.

Very true, Justin. I could not agree more. We all need to understand the reasons why a "properly" shaped face and "properly" arranged back cut are considered "proper". Doing it just 'cause Burnham or Dent or anyone else said it's the right way is not good enough...we need to know the consequenses, how the tree will respond, if we stray from these principles.

"Close enough" may actually be so for some factors, while for others there is precious little wiggle room for the outcome to match expectations. We need to be able to know the difference to succeed and stay safe.

[pantheraba]

Burnham,

Thanks for sharing the pictures and info...excellent, both.

[rumination]

Wow, fantastic thread Burnham, very educational! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge here.




So, how about the face cut in my avatar? Care to do some analysis on that one?;)

[Newfie]

cool thread Burnham, neat to actually meet and know the legend.

I had a beer with a a couple of swinging dutchman once. I went home early when things started getting wierd. I can see why dent would want to avoid them.:D

[wiley_p]

Its nice to hear he is still kicking and just as feisty as ever. The 212 program is the best training for sawyers there is. Dent's input has been key behind the success of the program. Funny, I can't say I like him. I was the focus of a bit of his wrath when I was a young Sawboss on the Shots and knew everything. I do have a great deal of respect for him.

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think another negative with a humboldt is it is harder to cut with a big saw. In the bottom cut you have to push and lift the saw up. On a horizontal cut at least you are riding across and the top cut of a conventional you are riding down with the weight of the saw.

i think another aspect of steering a tree not directly into the lean; is less impact. i think that the hardest hit will be A) directly into the lean and B) squarely perpendicular into ground. Steering off this course takes some of the down force and forces tapered to use some of that finite force to steer(leaving less force than originally); then strike more across the ground(assuming flat ground) than squarely into the ground.

i think we've all said that mostly knowledge about dutch forces are best used to guard against invoking them accidentally. Because most dutching; especially by kerf is by accidentally crossing your face cuts; especially if the horizontal cut goes further than the slanted. Horizontal cut closing early gives push up the column for full push force; slanted cut close early pushes across the column to flex it(like is the purpose anyway). Dutching across full face gives no relief/ full stop; the tree lunging forward hits the stop pushing backwards while tree is at steep angle and thereby high danger of BarberChair (http://www.mytreelessons.com/barberchair%201.swf).

1 use i have found for dutch (besides in air); that is safe(r) is perhaps after storm and 1 tree falls over to be propped up by another. i calculate the line of most force to be vertical; and look for what direction the tree could 'squirm' to get freer/ not more lodged. i face the propped tree so it might move to the side towards freedom. Sometimes freedom is gained by facing up; but generally to the side. Also, straight up is into most pinch force; for it is on axis with the flow of the determining force (gravity). Steering to the side is not feeding into the most force(as in felling example), and uses some of the force to steer too. So after facing to the side some degrees; i'll dutch kerf to top vertical. So that the bottom of hinge is open pulling to the side and top of hinge closes early to push to the side in concert. i think this uses more of the potential force to steer to the less pinch angle. So ill try to close the top of cut early and keep fat part of tapered in lower part of hinge; back cutting upwards and across dogged in near top, off to side of dutched kerf for pivot of saw to sweep from.

Using push on 1 side of hinge leverage and pull on opposing side in concert gives more of a tourqued force; instead of more of the linear both sides open/pull or both sides closed/push in this theory.

[Burnham]

Its nice to hear he is still kicking and just as feisty as ever. The 212 program is the best training for sawyers there is. Dent's input has been key behind the success of the program. Funny, I can't say I like him. I was the focus of a bit of his wrath when I was a young Sawboss on the Shots and knew everything. I do have a great deal of respect for him.

Dave, it's been a curving road for me to take over many years to get to the point where I can say I like the man. He is definately not the same man that he was back well over 20 years ago when we both were first under his instruction. The real turning point in his manner with people came directly after his wife was killed piloting her helicopter, flying out long lined X-mas trees...that's been about 10 years ago now, I think.

I bet that if you had kept on with the FS and had the same opportunity as I to continue to be in contact with him, to display your increasing competence and skills, your perceptions of him would have evolved as mine have. I appreciate him more than I did when I was younger and more certain of everything...I agree with you, he has my respect above all else.

[MasterBlaster]

It's weird how some people just have that "look."

[Burnham]

Wow, fantastic thread Burnham, very educational! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge here.




So, how about the face cut in my avatar? Care to do some analysis on that one?;)


Leon, ol' Dent would rip ya a new one :D .

When you form up a face cut that is unlevel, as the one in your avatar appears to be, you have set up two forces opposing your desired lay.

First, you have directed the tree in a different direction than that to which the tree is gunned...in the case of the avatar tree the actual fall will begin to be to the right of the gunned fall. This is because the folding of the hinge takes the tree off line from the gunning sights, which point in the same direction whether the saw bar is horizontal or tipped up or down some.

Second, the lower side of the face closes before the higher side, breaking loose the hinge on the left side of the avatar tree before the right side. As with a dutchman, the tree will swing toward the held side of the hinge...to the right side of the avatar tree.

In the end, no one knows how much of one force will be added to the other, or if they will be weak and the cutter ends up looking like a genius :D .

Bottom line, control is given up and luck takes over...while we can never excercise complete control nor escape luck's whim, we should strive to hold on to principles that allow us the best shot at outcomes we desire. Make your face cut and back cut level.

[Old Monkey]

I've never met the man but I've seen loads of his videos and taken S-212 a bunch of times. Its good to see he's still kicking. If you can fall a tree correctly with Dent looking over you shoulder, you should have no problems any other time.

It would bother me if Dent was right behind me while I was cutting. I've never liked falling with someone holding on to me or my pack. I prefer to look out for myself rather than have someone yank on me while I'm holding a running chainsaw.

[Burnham]

He doesn't yank on you, Darin.

But I take your point.

[TheTreeSpyder]

It would bother me if Dent was right behind me while I was cutting. I've never liked falling with someone holding on to me or my pack. I prefer to look out for myself rather than have someone yank on me while I'm holding a running chainsaw.


Ooops i been guilty of that with some(or re-direct angle of backcut); but more to tap on shoulder when it is time to let it work on it's own graces and get the heel outta Dodge while the gittin' is good. Real eerie being so responsible for a beginer like that.

Not to pick on anyone; but is there ever any comment on targeting tree to fall between lean and gun; by overgunning face past target like ForestApps (http://www.forestapps.com/) preaches?

To me this isn't as artful in that tree serves not to where mechanics function to (gun) but rather to where they fail their objective at (but meet yours) in between gun and lean. i hear they are quite successful in their art and business (of selling to students) with this methodology. Another point is; that as a climber i can't turn their model on it's side and use for horizontal movemeant like with tapered (and dutch). Like, i can taper hinge against downward pull to stay flatter on travel; but i can't place face upwards(over gunning past horizontal target;once again calculating downwards on the horizontal as lean/ across as target) to get flatter travel across.

Another point of understanding tension and tapered along with compression and dutch; is inspecting the face for rot, dryness etc. before back cutting. This is another point of understanding where compression and tension are needed specifically; and where just leveraged reach across is good enough(can have missing wood and still perform). If, elasticity isn't very good (becasue of species, frozen, rotten, dry etc.) where needed; i shouldn't depend on it's pull as much: and might have to depend more on the compression position. Being as tree is already faced; i might have to alter face, wedge, pull, dutch whatever to finish responsibly and safely to stay in the batter's box and disarm the situation i created. If, on the other hand there is missing, soft etc. wood where compression push/pivot is needed(on lean side); then i might accidentally invoke a dutch push on the opposite side as it pushed more than the lean side(that was failing on compression); thereby the close would push towards lean...

[darkstar]

In picture two.
Dent has the helmet of the fellow doing the cutting in his hand .
Is he giving the feller a massage?
I may have missed something there.
Maybe his helmet fell off.
Heck i have a hard time keeping my men in helmets.
Truth be known ,i have one FS employee and he wears his PPE always.
Good example for the crew.

[Old Monkey]

For about five years after I got out of the forest service I wore my own PPE all the time on tree jobs and then I slacked off with everyone around me. When the kid came I geared back up and bought my first Petzl. I added more PPE when the mortgage came too.

[RIVERRAT]

Whats up with pic # 10 with the 3 wedges? To the right of the pull wood it looks like there is a step. A flat higher than the bottom cut. What did I miss?


{EDIT} 1st off the pic gives kind of an illusion, at least on my screen. But I think I got it. It was a bore cut like you had explained ealier. I just didn't put the explanation with that pic. You can see the heart wood wasn't included in the hinge because of the bore cut. You can also see where the tree crunched the leading edge of the heart wood right before it left the stump. The bore cut caused the tree to leave it's hinge at a higher point above the apex of the face cut than it would have with out the bore cut.

[rumination]

Leon, ol' Dent would rip ya a new one :D .

When you form up a face cut that is unlevel, as the one in your avatar appears to be, you have set up two opposing forces.

First, you have directed the tree in a different direction than that to which the tree is gunned...in the case of the avatar tree the actual fall will begin to be to the right of the gunned fall. This is because the folding of the hinge takes the tree off line from the gunning sights, which point in the same direction whether the saw bar is horizontal or tipped up or down some.

Second, the higher side of the face closes before the lower side, breaking loose the hinge on the right side of the avatar tree before the left side. As with a dutchman, the tree will swing toward the held side of the hinge...to the left side of the avatar tree.

In the end, no one knows which force will overpower the other, or if they will balance out and the cutter ends up looking like a genius :D .

Bottom line, control is given up and luck takes over...while we can never excercise complete control nor escape luck's whim, we should strive to hold on to principles that allow us the best shot at outcomes we desire. Make your face cut and back cut level.


Thanks Burnham, that was very instructive. I usually try to keep my cuts flat, but I was working for someone else that day and that was how the boss wanted it. If I remember correctly the butt ended up slightly to the left of the intended lay, but it was a while back so I may be wrong about that. We had a wide open field to drop it in so I wasn't too worried about it.

[Al Smith]

Oh just when I thought I was a pretty good faller I see something I have absolutly no experiance with,namely large firs on slopes,as we have neither in these parts.In these parts ,seldom is the tree over 30 inchs.That said,good thread .:)

[sotc]

The bore cut caused the tree to leave it's hinge at a higher point above the apex of the face cut than it would have with out the bore cut.

no rr i believe it only eased the wedge driving. the face closing is the point the tree leaves the hinge

[TheTreeSpyder]

There is theory that the outer fibers are more flexible; and the older, drier, deader wood in center is less flexible; and more likely to cause splintering farther up inside in the fattest part of lumber. The hinges are all the same strength at first folding; for they all have the same pull on them forcing that strength; so the sides of a center punched face are thicker; and this is where the most leverage is (at outer extremes) against side to side movement.

A real inflexible wooded tree might splinter more; release before closing i'd think, and the center plunge may help mitigate that by placing the center fibers to the outsides.

Tearoff will happen when that side of face closes; so in a dutch on one side the early close side will tear off as the opposite open side is still pulling/ connected. The tearoff tends to force a Natural tapered hinge across from what i've seen. This is more pronounced in Live Oaks than pines; as the pine is softer; has more give on closing IMLHO.

[lumberjack]

Leon, ol' Dent would rip ya a new one :D .

When you form up a face cut that is unlevel, as the one in your avatar appears to be, you have set up two opposing forces.

First, you have directed the tree in a different direction than that to which the tree is gunned...in the case of the avatar tree the actual fall will begin to be to the right of the gunned fall. This is because the folding of the hinge takes the tree off line from the gunning sights, which point in the same direction whether the saw bar is horizontal or tipped up or down some.

Second, the higher side of the face closes before the lower side, breaking loose the hinge on the right side of the avatar tree before the left side. As with a dutchman, the tree will swing toward the held side of the hinge...to the left side of the avatar tree.

In the end, no one knows which force will overpower the other, or if they will balance out and the cutter ends up looking like a genius :D .

Bottom line, control is given up and luck takes over...while we can never excercise complete control nor escape luck's whim, we should strive to hold on to principles that allow us the best shot at outcomes we desire. Make your face cut and back cut level.


My take on it is the hinge is suppose to be perpendicular to the wood fiber, to get a leaning tree to fall true, you adjust the hinge to the fiber. To me it looks like the trunk is leaning down hill at roughly the same angle as the lean. Assuming the back cut was parallel to the hinge and not lower than the apex, I'd say it was a good fell.

I could quote a couple sources for this (Gerry for example), I also have personal experience with a flat (to the horizon) hinge and a hinge aligned with the fibers. Aligning with the fibers has made the tree fall true every time for me, to the horizon moves the tree differently, either can be useful in a particular situation.

[GASoline71]

Whats up with pic # 10 with the 3 wedges? To the right of the pull wood it looks like there is a step. A flat higher than the bottom cut. What did I miss?


{EDIT} 1st off the pic gives kind of an illusion, at least on my screen. But I think I got it. It was a bore cut like you had explained ealier. I just didn't put the explanation with that pic. You can see the heart wood wasn't included in the hinge because of the bore cut. You can also see where the tree crunched the leading edge of the heart wood right before it left the stump. The bore cut caused the tree to leave it's hinge at a higher point above the apex of the face cut than it would have with out the bore cut.

Jeff, I think you are noticing that the back cut is about 2 inches higher than the face cut. That is a kinda like a built in safety to help control stump shot.

Gary

[RIVERRAT]

no rr i believe it only eased the wedge driving. the face closing is the point the tree leaves the hinge Yes it is for the reason you give. That is a given I use the practice myself.
But I disagree that it cant cause a snag or tree to leave the stump earlier than if hadn't been bore cut it in the manner shown.

The first thing the top of your face cut will make contact with will be the high portion of heart wood left from the bore cut. That not only extends beyond the apex of the face cut but is higher than the bottom cut of the face. It can act like a fulcrum breaking the hinge.Causing the hinge to give way earlier than if the top & bottom of the face cut made contact. Now this could depend a bit on the type of tree & whether it is green or not.

[pete mctree]

I disagree RR, the only time that a tree seperates from the hinge early is either over extension of fibres and the tree pulling ( i.e. felling downhill) or brittle decayed timber. If the fibres remain intact until the face closes how can boring out the heart wood effect this?

[squisher]

Yah I know you've said in the past that you have a trouble at times getting your ideas across in words riverrat, but I'm not really following what you're trying to get at either. Maybe give it another go? Word it differently? I find these falling/hinge threads fascinating so please have another go at it.

Do you mean like if the tree has such a hard lean against the direction that you're trying to fall it that it tears away the hinge early if the middle of the holding wood is bored out because there's not enough left to hold it? If so I don't think that would be the case as the majority of force in that situation would be on the holding wood opposite of the lean and not on the holding/hinge wood that was either still in or bored out of the middle. Maybe if you bored out way to much?

[RIVERRAT]

OK, I'll give it another go. You make your face cut with a tall top cut as was done in Burnham's pics. Before starting your back you place a 4" thick piece of wood or steel in the bottom of your face cut. If that piece of wood or steel doesn't get driven down into the stump when is the hinge going to break.
By my description we have in fact raised the height of the bottom cut .
By 4" the thickness of what we placed in the face cut. As the face cut closes the top cut will make contact 1st with the item we put there well before complete closure is made. Possibly breaking the hinge & leaving the stump earlier.

My point, when you bore cut in the manner shown & it is not done right

{I am not saying it was wrong in the pic}

& also use a high back cut you run the risk of what I describe. Draw a straight line across the stump in the pic right on the hinge wood. Look at how much heart wood from the bore cut is extending out past the hinge into the face. If one bore cuts to far in & came in to high you would in effect be placing something into face like I WAS DESCRIBING BEFORE. What I am describing could not have happend in the pic.

[bergsteiger]

Sounds like you're describing something similar to a step dutchman.

[TheTreeSpyder]

i'd think a step would be on one side and not center mast. i think i see where RR is going; iff the tree is forward and not side leaning. Actually if plunging center face i prefer to cheat and backcut just above lower face; leaving no stump shod/catch; and come straight into plunge.

[RIVERRAT]

Sounds like you're describing something similar to a step dutchman. I believe that could cause the same thing.

[sotc]

would the hinge not carry the trunk past the bore? there wouldnt be any strength in the bored part as it would just pop off with any amount of weight. maybe?

[RIVERRAT]

would the hinge not carry the trunk past the bore? there wouldnt be any strength in the bored part as it would just pop off with any amount of weight. maybe? Yes when done right like in the pic. The trunk or rest of the hinge would pass.
Intelligent observation!

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think this is partially dependent on the position/direction of the source force(CG). In all calculations this must be recognized and just not taken as generically all ways the same situation irrespective of this key component.

i think with a good sidelean what you are describing is less likely to happen than with a forward lean; because the pivot and compression point is different. Just as a step dutchman on lean side will push harder towards center; than if the step dutchman is errantly placed on the side away from the sidelean.

Also, this at best wouldn't be as intense as a step dutchman; becasue it couldn't close as hard with the uncut part of hinge on each side acting as trestles to keep this 'center dutchman' up so not closing as hard(?).

[Burnham]

I'm gonna bump this one too, for the benefit of those who may have joined up since it was active. I think it has some great pics and conversation.

Can y'all tell I'm having a good time hunting for threads for this new forum? :D

[Paul B]

cant barely see the grin under the mustache! :) keep it up Mr B!

[MasterBlaster]

He's a bumping madman! We don't usually see you online this late, B!

[Skwerl]

There's some mighty good stuff here, Mr. B. :thumbup:

[GASoline71]

I tol' you dis was a good idear mang! :D

There is a lot of good stuff about fallin' and wedgin' that was buried in the forums... Now we can just pop in here to see it! :thumbup:

Gary

[Big A]

Awesome thread Burnham! Looks lke I got to start making more time to get back into the 'House again :D

[vharrison]

this is an awesome thread! Burnam, you're a stud.


Another contender for the best thread! Cool stuff Burn!

[MasterBlaster]

Awesome thread Burnham! Looks lke I got to start making more time to get back into the 'House again :D


I was suprised how quickly all ya'll Brits abandoned us like ya'll did. ArbTalk is cool, but the more forums the better! Heck, I'm active in 6 or 7 forums.

[Burnham]

Bump, kids. I loaded the pics back into this thread, hopefully the same ones :).

[MasterBlaster]

Thanks a lot, B-Man!

[rumination]

Wow! Thanks Burnham.

[Wagnaw]

Hey Burnham, Back to the face cut issue... If you all are wanting the hinge to hold as long as possible, why aren't you all using open (90 degree) face cuts? I was trained by the Forest Service over on the East Coast, and they were all about open face cuts.

[Burnham]

Hey Burnham, Back to the face cut issue... If you all are wanting the hinge to hold as long as possible, why aren't you all using open (90 degree) face cuts? I was trained by the Forest Service over on the East Coast, and they were all about open face cuts.

Wag, if I want the hinge to hold as long as possible, I will put in a wide face, just as you describe. We call it a "birdsmouth" face here. It looks like a conventional and a humbolt put together. I bet this is what you are refering to.

Mostly though, I don't need the hinge to hold as long as maximally possible, rather to hold long enough. It's more work than I need to do to form a face to hold until the tree is all the way on the ground on every single tree I fall. I completely agree that a small face, like 20 or 30 degrees, closes too quickly and breaks the hinge too early in the fall for most applications...but even that "rule" has exceptions.

It's a matter of knowing when you need the longest possible functioning hinge, and when you don't, and choosing what to do based on that knowlege rather than by rote.

Remember, I work for the USFS...I know all about their "all abouts" :). It is my experience that regional chainsaw coordinators are not generally quite as competent nor experienced as one might wish. Absolutes are easy to require. It takes effort to differentiate subtle reasons for variations of methodology. Federal bureaucracies are not usually good at this :D.

[TheTreeSpyder]

A slant on the bottom, humboldt is harder to make; for you are carrying that big saw upward against gravity; instead of letting it ride downward with gravity in a conventional. So, a tall top facing can give more towards open face travel; with less effort i think.

i really like the tail 'tales' of pulling fibre left to one side against lean /pull from side in the pictures. Really accentuates the forces going on; like on the front of Dent's book; like the sawyer and the tall fibre saluting each other over a job well done.

[Burnham]

A slant on the bottom, humboldt is harder to make; for you are carrying that big saw upward against gravity; instead of letting it ride downward with gravity in a conventional.

I have read you make this assertion before, KC, and I guess I have to say I disagree...if the cutter is making proper use of the dogs as pivot point, the heavy part of the saw, the body, is actually moving down, favored by gravity. It's the bar that is moving up.

With the conventional face the body has to be lifted up as the slanting cut goes is. So I think it's the opposite to your view.

The critical element is proper technique in using the dogs as a pivot point.

That's not to say because of this I think the humbolt is the better face cut to employ...lots of other factors in that call to consider...a different discussion.

[Wagnaw]

Wag, if I want the hinge to hold as long as possible, I will put in a wide face, just as you describe. We call it a "birdsmouth" face here. It looks like a conventional and a humbolt put together. I bet this is what you are refering to.

Mostly though, I don't need the hinge to hold as long as maximally possible, rather to hold long enough. It's more work than I need to do to form a face to hold until the tree is all the way on the ground on every single tree I fall. I completely agree that a small face, like 20 or 30 degrees, closes too quickly and breaks the hinge too early in the fall for most applications...but even that "rule" has exceptions.

It's a matter of knowing when you need the longest possible functioning hinge, and when you don't, and choosing what to do based on that knowlege rather than by rote.

Remember, I work for the USFS...I know all about their "all abouts" :). It is my experience that regional chainsaw coordinators are not generally quite as competent nor experienced as one might wish. Absolutes are easy to require. It takes effort to differentiate subtle reasons for variations of methodology. Federal bureaucracies are not usually good at this :D.

That's a great response and description of the forest service!! I completely agree.

That said, my personal preference is to make a full face cut, low to the ground, with the bottom part of the hinge steeper than the top. also that the full open face pulls less hinge fiber than conventional hinges, and the logs I'm usually dealing with are valuable hardwoods, which I don't want to waste.

Again... there is no substitution in the federal bureaucracies for someone with experience and a good logical head on their shoulders. ;)

...That's my shpeal.

[TheTreeSpyder]

I have read you make this assertion before, KC, and I guess I have to say I disagree...if the cutter is making proper use of the dogs as pivot point, the heavy part of the saw, the body, is actually moving down, favored by gravity. It's the bar that is moving up.

With the conventional face the body has to be lifted up as the slanting cut goes is. So I think it's the opposite to your view.

The critical element is proper technique in using the dogs as a pivot point.

That's not to say because of this I think the humbolt is the better face cut to employ...lots of other factors in that call to consider...a different discussion.

That is fair; if you play it right and can dig'em in well(not too hard, not to rotted); AND high enough; that you can slant bar to ride that pivot without nosing into the ground. i guess i was mentally picturing more when the lowest part of Humboldt is closer to the ground; and you have to have a long bar straight across not to hit ground; and have to lift it straight in pairallell with ground for a ways before being able to set it on it's pivot. Kinda thought that is a reason for humboldt standard; to maximize useable spar length; so cut low for same reason. But, a fair point ye make, none the less!

[rumination]

Another advantage of the humboldt on large trees is that the cut piece of wood will easily fall out of the face cut.

[Burnham]

Quite true, Leon.

[CurSedVoyce]

Burnam, I just wanted to say this has been a fantastic thread. I always find your threads very educational and informative. I wish I had you as an instructor. We drop some pretty good sized Bull Pine, Cedar and Ponderosa here. I often get to experiment with different cuts in open fields and in the woods. I am one that also sees how slow I can fell a tree. I prefer a gentle lay down to the big pop and plop. LOL
Thank you for being in here and what you share.

Stephen

P.S. Have a 48" dbh Bull pine to drop this fall. I hope to get a vid of it for everyone....

[Mr. Sir]

At the safety seminar I attended today, Bruce Smith mentioned the 90-15-5 rule of felling trees. Is anyone familiar with this? :/:

[squisher]

If it's under 90' it better not take you more than 15 minutes, but if it's after 5 it's miller time so don't even bother starting.:D

[MasterBlaster]

That's not it. It's a Shigo thing.

[squisher]

Well then what's the lowdown?:D

[MasterBlaster]

I'm not sure I can recite it correctly.

[Mr. Sir]

It was in reference to loggers. In 90% of the accident cases, within 15 seconds of the tree starting to fall, the feller was killed within 5 feet of the stump. In other words, taking at least two steps(preferably more) away from a falling tree within 15 seconds of the first movement will lower your risk of death by 90%. I know most loggers are taught to get away from the tree as it falls, but as an arborist, I was taught to keep the saw in the cut as the tree fell in order to "steer" it if necessary, until it was fully committed to the lay.

[Old Monkey]

I boogie on out of there and I wear a pink chiffon dress while felling. Do you know how many people have been killed felling trees in pink chiffon dresses? ZERO! I am upping my odds of surviving by a huge amount.

[sotc]

haha darin, good trick. im going to start wearing one to lower my odds, sorry that it will raise yours;)

mr sir, allow your proper face, back and hinge "steer" your tree. i know you already know but thought id toss it out there

[GASoline71]

At the safety seminar I attended today, Bruce Smith mentioned the 90-15-5 rule of felling trees. Is anyone familiar with this? :/:


If it's under 90' it better not take you more than 15 minutes, but if it's after 5 it's miller time so don't even bother starting.:D


That's not it. It's a Shigo thing.

Aww heck... squishy just PNW'ed it little... Most of the fallers I know prolly think that way... trust me. LOL :lol:

Gary

[Dave Shepard]

Anyone know where to get Dent's book? Bailey's used to carry it, but I couldn't find it on their site last night when I was ordering some stuff. Thanks.

[Skwerl]

A quick search at Amazon gave me this:
http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Timber-Falling-Procedural-Douglas/dp/1299184081/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233285902&sr=1-12

[Burnham]

You can order it from his website...listed for $13.95.

http://www.ddouglasdent.com/dent_books.htm

[18 stoner]

You can order it from his website...listed for $13.95.

http://www.ddouglasdent.com/dent_books.htm

Just got my hands on a copy Burnham:/:

Really good read.

[Dave Shepard]

I've got a copy coming from Bailey's, should be here today.

[sotc]

Really good read.

not really, but full of good info:D

[squisher]

Lmao, that's the truth Willie.