Is America a police state?

[Thor's Hammer]

Elements of this remind me of the Stasi's tactics in the former east german state.
http://www.alternet.org/story/152329/our_creeping_police_state%3A_how_going_to_the_mall _of_america_can_land_you_in_an_fbi_counterterroris m_report/

[NeTree]

Yep.

[wiley_p]

One of the biggest bummers that has come along in the last few years is the creation of Fusion centers. The smallest little snippet of info can get one looked at in a harsh manner. The little "see something, say something" program has helped exacerbate people not minding their own business.

[gf beranek]

Thomas Jefferson is rolling in his grave.

[Rborist1]

Thomas Jefferson is rolling in his grave.

Society is so lulled to sleep by America's Got Talent, Dancing With The Stars and the main stream media reports of blah blah blah, that they do not realize that their rights are being trampled all over. It's not just America that is becoming a police state, it's many many countries are slipping down this slippery slope.

[Thor's Hammer]

True Dat. British police are talking with Facebook and twitter on agreements to shut them down during periods of civil unrest. Iran and China are have a large LOL at that considering the criticism we heap on them for doing less.

[gf beranek]

here we go again

Commy bastard government.

It's so firggin corrupt and huge. What is a person to do?

[Rborist1]

What is a person to do?

Teach our children and others who will listen what our rights really are, lead by example and stand firm! :X

[Al Smith]

It comes as no surprise that the powers that be would attempt to cut communications .Once you shut down all lines of communications things are running blind ,it's an old tactic .Just now there are more modern means of communications but the effect is the same .

Don't ever thing or be so naive as to think anything you say or type is not monitered because nothing over the net or the phone lines is secure .

[SteveBullman]

True Dat. British police are talking with Facebook and twitter on agreements to shut them down during periods of civil unrest. Iran and China are have a large LOL at that considering the criticism we heap on them for doing less.

i dunno....i would actually fully support something like that in the case of the london riots

[MasterBlaster]

Heck yea - shut that shit down!

[woodworkingboy]

Must be the same idiots in government who support a police state, that said Van Halen's "Hot for Teacher" was going to corrupt the minds of all the young people in the country.

[sotc]

i dunno....i would actually fully support something like that in the case of the london riots

And what if it were you protesting and trying to raise awareness that the government had broke into your home and framed your family or some such thing?

[gf beranek]

They would never do such a thing.

[Thor's Hammer]

i dunno....i would actually fully support something like that in the case of the london riots

Yet we condemn Iran and China for doing this kind of thing, at the same time as applauding it being used by tunisians and Egyptians.

[SteveBullman]

'We' as in our goverments you mean. I'm not condeming China or Iran for anything, and generally dont buy in to much of the propoganda we are fed by our respective countries about what goes on in these other countries

[NickfromWI]

....i would actually fully support something like that in the case of the london riots

I think this is a stance you can take after the fact. But if a government rep came to you and said, "we would like to limit your ability to communicate with your neighbors"...would you ever support that?

Not me.

[SteveBullman]

I think this is a stance you can take after the fact. But if a government rep came to you and said, "we would like to limit your ability to communicate with your neighbors"...would you ever support that?

Not me.

Not at all....throughout the whole london riots i was at a loss as to why they hadnt put a stop to the networking......as i said before, i would fully support that rather than see our capital torn to bits by a bunch of mindless idiots

[SteveBullman]

At the end of the day, using the london riots as an example, the streets were like a warzone. whats the first thing any military body would want to do in a battlezone? obviously cut down means of communication. I really dont see that as any form of censorship/removal of liberty, or any other way you would choose to word it.

[NickfromWI]

But I think that is sortof the point. You're talking about an example where it seemed there was little reason or value to the London riots. It was just people making a mess for the sake of making a mess.


And what if it were you protesting and trying to raise awareness that the government had broke into your home and framed your family or some such thing?

This is what I'm trying to say. What if the gov't was doing some heinous stuff and the public felt the only way to communicate directly to the gov't was via a riot. I'm not saying it's right, but would you want them to stop communication at that point?

It seems that you are arguing FOR a gov't that is in full control. I believe there needs to be a balance. For a gov't to fully work properly the PEOPLE must retain an almost uncomfortable amount of control.

[woodworkingboy]

I don't think that it is so easy to clearly understand about how you wood feel if you lost certain rights. Much of your response would be emotional beyond the practical, so you have to first experience it to fully understand. If what gets taken for granted is suddenly gone, wtf comes on pretty strong. With guns, for example.

[Thor's Hammer]

I guess this is what it felt like to be a Jew under the Nazi rise to power-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/02/after-9-11-muslim-arab-american-stories

[gf beranek]

That's how it starts alright.

[stig]

Ed, how can someone living in a place where every public place is under video surveillance 24/7 point fingers?

[woodworkingboy]

You have to point your toes instead.





:D

[gf beranek]

There is some irony there.

[Thor's Hammer]

Ed, how can someone living in a place where every public place is under video surveillance 24/7 point fingers?
I'm not pointing fingers. I certainly feel unnerved by the huge volume of state voyeurism in the UK whenever I'm in a city. Less so where I live on the island.
But America styles itself as the land of the free, when in fact that is a long lost dream.

[stig]

It is of course your horns that are pointy.
My mistake:lol:

It is catching on here by the way. The whole "Lets put up cameras everywhere so we can be safe from villians" idea.

[gf beranek]

The us governments explanation for 911 never did come out clean in the wash. It's odd that there never was any plane wreckage seen or found at the pentagon or the Penn crash site.

Airliners just don't disintegrate into nothing. There always wings, fuselage and engines left. The implications weigh very heavy on my feelings behind what really happened.

[woodworkingboy]

They sure confiscated the surveillance video quick from the gas station that showed the pentagon. Never made public.

[Thor's Hammer]

The us governments explanation for 911 never did come out clean in the wash. It's odd that there never was any plane wreckage seen or found at the pentagon or the Penn crash site.

Airliners just don't disintegrate into nothing. There always wings, fuselage and engines left. The implications weigh very heavy on my feelings behind what really happened.

"Do I believe in conspiracies? Naah! Do I believe that powerful people would get together and plan for certain outcomes? Naah! Do I believe that powerful interests would operate outside the law and maybe even kill people? Naah! Do I believe secret government agencies might feel the need to assassinate a person and cover it up? Naah! I think everything in America is open and clean and above board and powerful people always play by the rules.” ~ George Carlin

[gf beranek]

And by golly it got the patriot act and war on terrorism on a just start too. Yeah..

[Cobleskill]

"Homeland Security" formed too.

[gf beranek]

We're safe now.

[NickfromWI]

And that, my friends, is how to turn a standard political thread into a 911 conspiracy thread in 30 posts or less.

[Thor's Hammer]

There is a direct connection though Nick. No matter how it happened on september 11th 2001, the subsequent political events transpired to create a huge state security apparatus and the destruction of basic human rights in the USA, allied western nations and invaded states.

[gf beranek]

The evolution of how "on line threads" evolve. Truly a modern phenomena.

I think derails into conspiracy theories is inevitable in such topics as "government intervention." It's the natural flow of such threads.

[rangerdanger]

Agreed....these threads always take a turn down that path at one point or another it seems

[flushcut]

9/11 was a "good excuse" to limit our freedoms all in the name of the war on terror. I feel safer don't you guys.

[Old Monkey]

Personal liberty vs. security, its a tough balance to maintain especially after you've been attacked. Keep the same levels of freedom and folks complain, "What have you done to make us safer?" Do something and its the beginning of a police state. Then there are the ends justify the means guys like Dick Cheney. Torturing people is OK when they might know something. I think I'll go watch the Dark Knight again.

[flushcut]

"Not the head the victim gets all fuzzy"

[Rborist1]

A man can't even butcher a cow in his own driveway nowadays without police interferance.

http://www.standard.net/stories/2011/09/06/police-called-after-man-butchers-cow-his-driveway

[CurSedVoyce]

Probably has an HOA... Won't catch me moving there... sheeeeesh.

[stig]

9/11 was a "good excuse" to limit our freedoms all in the name of the war on terror. I feel safer don't you guys.

I feel completely safe, yes.

But I just read last week that a recent poll shows that 1 out of 10 Danes are afraid of becoming victims to a terrorist attack.

That is kind of like going around being afraid of being hit by a meteor strike.

Unless your name is Flemming Rose or Kurt Westergaard ( the guys behind the infamous muhammad cartoons) the chance of being hit by a meteor is most likely bigger.

With my job, my chances of getting killed at work is a million times bigger than becoming the victim of terror, but it is not something I go around worrying about.

[Cobleskill]

How much money has been spent to keep terrorists off planes? And the shoe bomber and underpants bomber didn't succeed, but inconvenienced how many of us? Cost vs. benefit ratio?

A cop pulls me over and tells me he needs to search me or my vehicle for his safety and mine? BS. It is an excuse to bypass the search and seizure laws. Taking your vehicle seems over the top on a lot of crimes too. They are turning in to the Gestapo.

[woodworkingboy]

This would not be the first time at all that America has abused innocent people's rights when feeling threatened from abroad. The Japanese American internment, moving people out of their homes at what turned out to result in great personal loss (places looted and destroyed, the banks taking possession of land as a result of defaulted loans), and keeping them in hardly less than comfortable living conditions in the desert, few would refute that it was indeed a shameful part of US history during the period. All the while the 442nd combat infantry battalion, made up of the sons of the internees, was fighting in Europe against the Germans, and receiving the greatest number of battlefield decorations compared to any other unit of it's size during the war, also possibly the heaviest losses. My uncle was at the Battle for Monte Cassino in Italy, one of the major battles during the conflict. He told me that when they were pinned down and getting pounded, they called in the 442nd. The boys wanted to prove that their parents didn't deserve such treatment, and knew the work of dying to do it.

America can result to cruelty when the country feels threatened, not a good thing .

[Fiddler]

Todays laws that impinge on our freedom are no worse than earlier changes and mis uses of law that have been going on for many years. Detroit: farmer w/wagon pulls broke down beer truck to the next tavern so he can make the next delivery, police officer observes truck driver pay farmer for the help and writes the farmer the first ticket for driving without a license. This case was used to take away the regular persons ability to travel freely on the roadways without a driver license (which was meant for those carrying cargo or passengers for fee, fare, or hire. Combined with the changing of a statute that stated all Citizens had the right to travel freely to wording that made it apply only to pregnant women on welfare who were moving form MI to OH, this caused everyone to need to have a license to travel in the conveyance of the day on the roadways.

Our court system is a business for profit where a percentage of court costs goes directly to judges' retirement. Ever wonder why every case that comes before a judge ends up with someone paying the max court cost and the money always goes toward court costs before it goes toward fines?

Playing on a populations fear is an excellent way to restrict their freedoms.

I believe the real problem comes from the use of quasi criminal actions. Paying criminal penalties (money or imprisonment) for civil infractions where there is no real victim. the largest percent of our loss of freedom comes form this miscarriage of justice by our for profit court system. Funny how it happens to folks so much that they think it is the way things are supposed to be.....:/:

[NeTree]

There is a direct connection though Nick. No matter how it happened on september 11th 2001, the subsequent political events transpired to create a huge state security apparatus and the destruction of basic human rights in the USA, allied western nations and invaded states.

Yup.



A man can't even butcher a cow in his own driveway nowadays without police interferance.

http://www.standard.net/stories/2011/09/06/police-called-after-man-butchers-cow-his-driveway


Imagine the surprise... all those folks faor all those years thought beef came from the grocery store and Wendy's. :roll:


How much money has been spent to keep terrorists off planes? And the shoe bomber and underpants bomber didn't succeed, but inconvenienced how many of us? Cost vs. benefit ratio?

A cop pulls me over and tells me he needs to search me or my vehicle for his safety and mine? BS. It is an excuse to bypass the search and seizure laws. Taking your vehicle seems over the top on a lot of crimes too. They are turning in to the Gestapo.

And the irony... is that the TSA has an average of one employee arrested per week for everything from rape to stealing luggage.

As for the cop... no warrant? No search. Yes, I'll wait while you try and get one. :evil:

[stig]

That takes forever.

I did that once, back in the 70es.
They wanted to search my locked motorcycle sidecar for drugs because I looked like a Hippie.

No deal.

This was in the middle of the countryside, so it took about 4 hrs for them to get a warrant.
Ruined my day, but sure as shit ruined their's as well, since two of them had to wait with me.
They could only detain me at the spot, or they would have had to arrest me.

Back then, wrongful arrest really cost the system some money.
Today all they would have to do was to say that I looked like a picture of a terrorist they once saw down in Mexico on someones shelf, and my rights as a citicen would be gone.

Brave new world!

[woodworkingboy]

I ordered some nice brass hinges from the states recently, California specifically, for a small box. The warning label almost covered the whole plastic bag holding the hinges....cancer, birth defects, or other assorted reproductive harm. Brass hinges..... first I thought they were talking about the plastic bag.
I hadn't considered shaving the brass and smoking it, maybe I'm missing out? Being frightened seems to have become a major preoccupation.

[Al Smith]

The big ploy if they want to search your car is they get a game warden .In Ohio a game warden does not need a search warrent .

[NeTree]

And when they find no game...

[Thor's Hammer]

How about being forced out of your own home? I found this very disturbing

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yw3RiMdS7sE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Thor's Hammer]

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/U7Yy-roIT1A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Peter]

Sounds only too familiar.

Dale Farm (http://dalefarm.wordpress.com/)

[Thor's Hammer]

I was thinking the same Peter. We're used to seeing those kind of stories in the UK, but I always imagined that it was unheard of in the US.

[stig]

It might be easier for gypsies to be accepted if they'd lay off their traditional ways of making their living by stealing.
I helped clear out a former gypsy or roma if you want to be poltically correct last month. The county had done thr major part of the clean-up but the place was still full of the stuff they had stolen and been forced to leave behind when they were evicted.

[gf beranek]

Those politicians all ought to be thrown from office. they probably got there illegally anyway.

[woodworkingboy]

I like how the supervisor in the vid just sat there like a dead frog on a log when faced with the enquiry, and then the lady said something to the effect, "Open question time does not include anyone having to answer". Make it official. I caught a few sly grins in the councilman's chambers as well. Very unfortunate that those are the leaders today, common people have a hard road ahead.

New government here in Japan for the umpteenth time in only a couple years. Within eight days the chief trade minister had to resign for inappropriate and embarrassing comments regarding the towns hit by the nuclear disaster. Set a record I believe. Same old same old, no real connection with the populace and self interest is the rule. Totally sick.

[Rborist1]

Unreal.........

http://www.lcsun-news.com/ci_18818776

[Old Monkey]

What fun reading could we find about police fifty years ago in places like LA, Chicago and in parts of the South? When people misuse authority its a bad thing. Still history is not as easy as a graph going from good to bad. My wife feels very lucky to have been born when she was compared to how women were treated in the past in America. History is a checkerboard of good and bad stuff and when history is reduced to the movies we've seen, perpective is lost. I should start a really f'ed up things politicians and police did in the past thread to give some context to the now.

[NeTree]

I'm just wondering if she feels she's getting stuffed in the ass twice.


Seriously, if the cops requested the services, they're responsible for the bill.

[Thor's Hammer]

I dont want this to turn into another 'cops suck' thread. But yeah, that woman is being seriously f*****. Twice.

[woodworkingboy]

That story takes the prize for the most ridiculous of the year. At least one thing comes from this sort of behavior, it is really getting easier to tell who your friends are.

[Thor's Hammer]

So, anybody here heard about the controversy surrounding the WWASP detention centers for troubled kids?
It woould seem that incarceration, brainwashing, torture and humiliation is state sanctioned and protected. Reading the details, I cant help but feel like the US is actually somehow still some kind of medieval hell hole if you fall through the gaps in society.

http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/khqo0/350_students_sue_school_for_tortureincluding/

[gf beranek]

If any truth be it is appalling. A dark side of human kind.

[Rborist1]

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gameon/post/2011/09/nfl-orders-ankles-up-frisks-for-16-million-fans-enterting-stadiums-security-buffalo-bills/1?loc=interstitialskip

[Old Monkey]

Any article, especially if it is a Blog, is just a start. I feel it is important not to respond emotionally to anything I here or read without trying to cross reference it, corroborate it and see if there is an alternative narrative. If something fits perfectly into what you already believe then you need to be twice as skeptical about it. Is America a Police State? Books could be written about that statement. When a thread is comprised of multiple links to stories and no work has been done to verify anything, it starts to feel disjointed and pell mell. I'm not looking for a doctorate thesis but perhaps a bit more scrutiny. Blog posts are never to be believed in and of themselves.

[Thor's Hammer]

I was hoping that somebody here would know a little more about the WWASP issue. I checked all the references mentioned, and it all seems true.

[Old Monkey]

I don't have any knowledge of it Ed. I'll look around later.

[CurSedVoyce]

Sorry!! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15711135):|:

[stehansen]

How about being forced out of your own home? I found this very disturbing

<iframe width="560" height="345" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yw3RiMdS7sE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

For the sake of argument I'll take the other side here. These are county ordinances that the county officials are charged with enforcing. I say if the people of the county don't like these laws, then they should change them.

[CurSedVoyce]

So SOPA was put back on the back burner since it went over so popular. Now they are going to try to mess with internet privacy with this one....
HR 1981 (http://www.concordy.com/article/807-u/february-9-2012/protecting-children-new-legislation-threatens-online-privacy/3749/) under the guise of protecting children.....