View Full Version : FS C sawyer certification with Dent, 2011
Burnham
05-04-2011, 01:18 PM
It's hard for me to believe that two years have passed since my last binnual recertification training under Doug Dent...but such is the case.
I took a slug of pictures, and culled them down to about 60. I won't post them all :). I'll start with Diego, he's the super for the Zigzag Hotshots and a darn good cutter. His tree was a spiketopped DF about 40 inches, with significant headlean. He bored the back cut...quartered it from the offside and finished with an overlapping release bore straight out the back.
Burnham
05-04-2011, 01:30 PM
This one was a bigger tree, really thick bark, about 48 inches DBH. Doug (the cutter, not Dent :)), used my beautiful old 084...I'd mounted the 42 inch bar for the day. It needed the excercise, and oftentimes the younger guys love the chance to run it.
Burnham
05-04-2011, 01:49 PM
Here's a batch one of the guys took of me working a 46 inch DF...066 w/32 inch bar.
I put a sorta goofy gapped face on this one, more as an experiment than anything else. It didn't come off too smoothly, though it did the job. Memo to self...don't try something you don't feel real familiar with in front of Dent :D.
You all set conventional faces!
I thought one got kicked out of the PNW for doing that;)
Jokes aside, to my eye everyone did some fine work. Nice level cuts, even hinges etc.
It looks like you used two tries to set your backcut. There is a slightly slanted cut about 2" below the backcut, what is that about?
BTW Why do you have to be certified every 2 years, seems overdoing it to me.
I mean, once a person has shown mastery of the trade ans stays in the trade, what are the chances tha the skill will disappear.
Can you imagine me waking up one fine morning, all of a sudden having forgot how to put a beechtree safely and precisely on the ground?
Not that I wouldn't love the chance to fall a tree and have Dent evaluate it.
MasterBlaster
05-04-2011, 02:01 PM
That Dent fellow looks like such a cheerful, funny fellow. I bet he was cracking jokes the entire time!
Mr. Sir
05-04-2011, 02:06 PM
BTW Why do you have to be certified every 2 years, seems overdoing it to me.
I imagine it's to break any bad habits that may develop and to overcome the complacency that often shows up with familiarity.
I love that 4th pic of Burnham with Dent looking on. He's got that WTF look on his face!
I noticed you only revealed half of that super secret triple-step face cut.
Burnham
05-04-2011, 02:22 PM
You all set conventional faces!
I thought one got kicked out of the PNW for doing that;)
Jokes aside, to my eye everyone did some fine work. Nice level cuts, even hinges etc.
It looks like you used two tries to set your backcut. There is a slightly slanted cut about 2" below the backcut, what is that about?
BTW Why do you have to be certified every 2 years, seems overdoing it to me.
I mean, once a person has shown mastery of the trade ans stays in the trade, what are the chances tha the skill will disappear.
Can you imagine me waking up one fine morning, all of a sudden having forgot how to put a beechtree safely and precisely on the ground?
Not that I wouldn't love the chance to fall a tree and have Dent evaluate it.
I did reset that back cut, Stig. What's up with it is as soon as I set it I realized I'd let the bar tip drop...I think I was casting an eye overhead at the same moment I laid on the throttle, and I obviously let it drift down in that moment just before touching bar to bark. So I fixed it :).
The big difference between you as a pro logger/arb and the vast majority of FS sawyers is that we are not full time cutters. The skills are degradable if you don't keep in practice. Even the fire guys that cut heavily in fire season then have 4-5 months where they may not lift a saw at all. Journey level sawyers like myself have years of experience to draw on, but many of the FS cutters, especially in the lower cert levels do not.
I get to cut some, not a huge amount, all year long, and have a higher than average knowlege, ability, and experience...I probably don't really need a recert class every two years. But I usually learn something, maybe share something else, and getting together with the other C cutters to fall some trees is good for us all from that point of view.
The proof is in the pudding...since the FS instituted the S-212 chainsaw training and cert/recert program in 1987, injuries and fatalities have been cut significantly.
The proof is in the pudding...since the FS instituted the S-212 chainsaw training and cert/recert program in 1987, injuries and fatalities have been cut significantly.
That is a hard point to argue against!
Peter
05-04-2011, 03:01 PM
That is very interesting, I am a firm believer in CPD as in other professions.
Over here we have been lumbered with a vague ill-defined requirement for "refresher training" every 5 years for regular users, every 3 for occasional users, but there is very little guidance as to what is expected to meet the requirement.
Personally I like to add another unit from our modular certification system now and again to keep up to date, but I would love to come over and fell some of your big conifers!
Thor's Hammer
05-04-2011, 04:40 PM
:D
pete mctree
05-04-2011, 05:13 PM
:lol: Funny Ed.
Nice pics Burnham. I'm with Peter in the que to knock some decent trees over next time I come & visit
wiley_p
05-04-2011, 05:16 PM
That Dent fellow looks like such a cheerful, funny fellow. I bet he was cracking jokes the entire time!
Not exactly my memory of him.
woodworkingboy
05-04-2011, 05:30 PM
Enjoyed seeing the pics, thanks for posting them, Burnham. Did y'all notice the dent in Dent's hardhat?
CurSedVoyce
05-04-2011, 08:27 PM
Wonderful pics of the cert class as always Burnam :thumbup:
You FS guys have all the fun ;)
I would probably be all nervous and screw it up in front of Dent.. :lol:
woodworkingboy
05-04-2011, 08:57 PM
My take is that to reach a level of proficiency where you are able to teach the guys that teach, such as Burnham, you have to be a sourpuss.
MasterBlaster
05-04-2011, 09:21 PM
Dent need to turn that frown upside down.
inbredJed
05-04-2011, 10:21 PM
Good Job B: Wow! Yeah, there's pretty much no way that I could ever cut in front of that guy. Well... I can hardly cut anyway but...
Hey: Did the one poopstain kid get chewed out for leaving that meat hanging off his back cut. (from his bar being too short) He should have nipped that out first no? I'd get chewed out huge for something like that.
Funny stuff Ed, I had neary the same thought about those two pix!:lol:
forestryworks
05-05-2011, 07:49 AM
Always enjoy the pictures you share, Burnham.
Burnham
05-05-2011, 10:26 AM
Good Job B: Wow! Yeah, there's pretty much no way that I could ever cut in front of that guy. Well... I can hardly cut anyway but...
Hey: Did the one poopstain kid get chewed out for leaving that meat hanging off his back cut. (from his bar being too short) He should have nipped that out first no? I'd get chewed out huge for something like that.
Which picture, Jed?
The off side
http://gypoclimber.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32950&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1304530155
http://gypoclimber.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32949&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1304530127
On a tree that size, a smidgen of uncut wood like that isn't going to matter any.
Burnham
05-05-2011, 02:00 PM
Thanks, Willie.
Dent agreed with Stig on that one, Jed.
That tree had some headlean, the wedge in the back cut kerf was serving mostly as a telltale, and it slowly started to commit to the face before he had progressed even as far as you see in the completed back cut. He stayed in the hole for another second or so to even up the hinge as best he could, then vacated the locale.
If the tree had been a little more sky-bound, I'm sure the sawyer would have rocked around the back a little, dogged in and snipped that point before wedging it over.
Burnham
05-05-2011, 04:12 PM
Here's another batch. I don't know why that face looks so off level in my pictures...it was a tiny bit out of plumb, but not near as much as it appears. Proof of that is Dent never said even a single word about it.
Burnham
05-05-2011, 04:27 PM
Dent had me cut a second tree that day, after my less than awesome job on the gapped face. No pics of the action, just a few afters.
This one was the only really bad snag we worked on...a schoolmarm, dead as hell, lost big patches of bark. The bigger double top wobbled like a drunk every time I tapped a wedge.
There was about 16-18 inches of solid wood at the center of the 30" dbh butt. I gutted the hinge from the rear after it stood stronger than I thought it would, to avoid as much wedgeing (which was shaking the weak top) as possible. After that, a few well spaced thumps and it eased over.
Husky D
05-05-2011, 05:02 PM
Great pics Burnham, as you have mentioned before Dent really likes to get involved and stand right in amongst it but touching the cutter as he's felling? I'd find it a bit off putting having someone right on my shoulder when your trying to concentrate and if he put his arm around me:O
Husky D
05-05-2011, 05:06 PM
Also if the 2 Pete's are coming over to fell some big un's any chance for a 3rd!. We could get a bus load for a busmans:D
Burnham
05-05-2011, 05:15 PM
I hear you...that's definitely his style. The touch is to give you a nudge or tug when he decides the time to exit is NOW. If you go on your own without him feeling the need to encourage you, you never even feel his hand.
I can tell you, he is as focused on the tree and the feedback it's giving as the sawyer is, and has a ton of experience with interpreting those messages. If you have to cut a really nasty one, and that last snag was not pretty at all, if you can get comfortable with his presence, it can begin to feel reassuring.
If it's something where you'll learn a hard lesson but not likely get killed, he'll often let you scew up...like letting a guy go ahead and allow a tree to set back and pinch the bar even though he can tell the saw is beginning to bog and the wedge isn't set tight enough. And he is not shy then about parcelling out a dressing down, should you deserve it...also his style, for sure.
The thing he has to make sure never happens is for a student to get injured or worse under his tutalege...that would leave him feeling responsible, and liable as well. So close monitoring is his way of dealing with that...which is maybe better than standing back and just hoping it'll work out OK.
Husky D
05-05-2011, 05:36 PM
I know what you mean about having someone nearer at times for confidence, I've stood with guys when training and they bounce thoughts back off you even though they know they are correct and im sure you'd agree that confidence is a major part in tree felling. I don't think I'd be as close as Dent though as im sure someone would be telling me to "chuff off" out the way! I hope I look happier than that when im watching people:D
Burnham
05-05-2011, 05:52 PM
If one were to tell Dent to chuff off, he'd tell you to shut your blankity blank saw off and get your blankity blank azz out of his class and sight...in no uncertain terms and with a distinct lack of gentle language accompanying the aforementioned message :D.
He smiles often enough during his lectures, and during the bs sessions before and after a class, but not so much when the felling and autopsies are going on, 'tis true. He sees this a deadly serious business, and with over 100 faller's fatality investigations as a hired expert witness for court proceedings, he may be more sensitive to that than most.
I think they broke the mold after v1.0 of Douglas Dent was cast ;).
woodworkingboy
05-05-2011, 05:59 PM
Burnham, how you describe Mr. Dent, seems to me to express the attributes of a good occupational teacher. Liking them isn't a necessity, there is the larger and more important picture. Wonder if his own teacher is speaking through him?
Burnham
05-05-2011, 06:08 PM
I don't think Doug had much of a teacher, other than the school of hard knocks as a young bull of a custom cutter in western Oregon in the late 60's and 70's. Certainly nothing organized, like an apprentice program...such didn't exist. That would be a great question to ask him.
Did y'all know he was only 23 when he wrote Professional Timber Falling, A Procedural Approach?
Skwerl
05-05-2011, 06:19 PM
In a way I can see where it would be less distracting for the faller with Dent actually touching him. At least that way the faller isn't wondering in the back of his mind "Where is he?" You know he's right there next to you.
woodworkingboy
05-05-2011, 06:33 PM
The guy seems almost Japanese in his approach. During my apprenticeship, it was basically a nightmare experience six out of seven days per week, morning until night. Then when we would punch the clock at 6:30, sometimes the man would be waiting and ask me to go for a beer with him, or enquire as to why I never came over to his house on Sunday. I was like wtf? Being able to flip a switch from intensity and severity one minute, to a much more easy going approach the next when work is finished, I had never experienced anything to that degree, and it took years to get a handle on it. In retrospect, I did myself a lot of harm by taking things so personally, it sure didn't help anything. It does stretch you out as a human to be able to still be light hearted in such a demanding situation, really realize what is going on.
tophopper
05-05-2011, 07:00 PM
Great pics B!
inbredJed
05-05-2011, 07:04 PM
Yeah... That was clearly a really filthy snag. Good job staying safe while making a good hinge.
pantheraba
05-05-2011, 07:32 PM
To write a book like that is amazing for a 23 year old...or any age. To know that much by that age is incredible.
Burnham
05-05-2011, 07:42 PM
Yeah... That was clearly a really filthy snag. Good job staying safe while making a good hinge.
Damn good thing I did do a decent job on that one...I can't recall having screwed the pooch so badly on a face cut as I did on the first tree in some 30 years of felling for the FS :(.
Just when you think you're beginning to get halfway competent at something...
:|:
woodworkingboy
05-05-2011, 07:42 PM
Yes, and to have the respect for the work to want to make your contribution and teach it proper. Reminds of another person, too.
SouthSoundTree
05-06-2011, 09:50 AM
Damn good thing I did do a decent job on that one...I can't recall having screwed the pooch so badly on a face cut as I did on the first tree in some 30 years of felling for the FS :(.
Just when you think you're beginning to get halfway competent at something...
:|:
A good reminder to all the cutters that one has to be always on their game, no matter their experience, and that everyone makes mistakes, if only on a rare occasion.
stehansen
05-06-2011, 09:21 PM
Great pictures Burnham.
Interesting stuff Burnham. Any reason you know for no one in your area wearing these (http://www.husqvarna.com/us/forest/accessories/safety-equipment-and-clothes/head,-hearing-and-sight-protection/pro-forest-helmet-system/)?
Burnham
05-06-2011, 09:32 PM
Sure is, Gord. USFS employees, every single one with field-going responsibilities, are issued hardhats that must meet standards for use in wildfire suppression activities. Those like you linked are not sufficiently resistant to radiant heat to meet the standard.
MasterBlaster
05-06-2011, 09:36 PM
Ain't standards silly, sometimes? I mean, if I'm in a fire that melts Gord's helmet, I think the rest of me's gonna be lit up, too.
Burnham
05-06-2011, 09:42 PM
You're kidding, right? If not, you don't know squat about the real conditions fireline crews operate in.
Ask Old Monkey, or wiley p.
MasterBlaster
05-06-2011, 09:59 PM
No, I don't. So, your hardhat can melt and you're still OK? Cool, news to me.
I don't mean that to sound like that. Know whutta I mean? The conditions...
HolmenTree
05-06-2011, 10:29 PM
Great pics Burnham.
I have to say that old McDonald T helmet Dent is wearing was banned over 20 years ago. The one I'm wearing in my avator to the left is the new certified standard aluminum helmet with double layer riveted top.
Willard.
Butch, the heat will soften them, then they harden back up and become brittle, either condition can render them nearly useless. They are quite light weight (thin) material
MasterBlaster
05-06-2011, 11:41 PM
That makes sense, thanks for asplaining.
flushcut
05-07-2011, 08:54 AM
Nice work but I would be nervous as hell with him standing there looking on as I cut. I think it would be quite intimidating.
MasterBlaster
05-07-2011, 08:59 AM
That skinny fella don't intimidate me one bit. I've met many like him. Phhht.
Burnham
05-07-2011, 01:51 PM
That makes sense, thanks for asplaining.
My bad, Butch...I assumed you'd know the effects of high levels of radiant heat on plastics not formulated to deal with that, but just didn't believe that firefighters actually work in conditions like that. Sorry.
MasterBlaster
05-07-2011, 04:17 PM
You'd think chemists would come up with some type of heat resistant polymer. Hell, that'd be an excuse to charge more.
Bodean
05-07-2011, 05:15 PM
Hat's off, Burnham. Great pictures.
I remember, someone having a hold of your line gear suspenders,
watching the top of your burning tree, ready to pull you out.
S-212 gives a great fundamental approach. Definitely set me on the right foot.
Burnham
05-08-2011, 04:49 PM
You'd think chemists would come up with some type of heat resistant polymer. Hell, that'd be an excuse to charge more.
They do, Butch. Bullard's is the best known of that variety, though not every model of theirs is so rated. That's what all FS field-going workers use, a plastic polymer that is heat resistant. And you're right, they do cost significantly more.
At one time, the plastics offered better pierceing protection than aluminum, but the double shell models like Willard mentioned are their equal today. Problem with them for fire line crews is the absorb and transmit heat extremely well...not good on the fireline :).
As to the dented oldschool alu. hardhat Dent uses, he doesn't believe it's any less effective at protecting him than a newer, better made, undamaged HH would be...any more than he believes chain brakes have added any significant improvement in safety to chainsaw operators. No way anyone will ever convince him differently. He's also firm in his conviction that anyone who holds a different opinion is an idiot. He can be a hard guy to discuss things with :D.
Dave Shepard
05-08-2011, 05:54 PM
They do, Butch. Bullard's is the best known of that variety, though not every model of theirs is so rated. That's what all FS field-going workers use, a plastic polymer that is heat resistant. And you're right, they do cost significantly more.
At one time, the plastics offered better pierceing protection than aluminum, but the double shell models like Willard mentioned are their equal today. Problem with them for fire line crews is the absorb and transmit heat extremely well...not good on the fireline :).
As to the dented oldschool alu. hardhat Dent uses, he doesn't believe it's any less effective at protecting him than a newer, better made, undamaged HH would be...any more than he believes chain brakes have added any significant improvement in safety to chainsaw operators. No way anyone will ever convince him differently. He's also firm in his conviction that anyone who holds a different opinion is an idiot. He can be a hard guy to discuss things with :D.
This is where experience and confidence spills over into arrogance and pig-headedness.
MasterBlaster
05-08-2011, 06:56 PM
I always thought I wanted an aluminum hardhat until the day I finally got one; too hot!!!
Thor's Hammer
05-08-2011, 06:57 PM
I still want one. Anybody know where I can get one?
MasterBlaster
05-08-2011, 06:59 PM
Doesn't Baileys sell them?
forestryworks
05-08-2011, 06:59 PM
I always thought I wanted an aluminum hardhat until the day I finally got one; too hot!!!
They do get hot in the summer.
I've never worn a plastic hard hat, are they cooler in the summer?
I suppose you could get a vented hard hat but wouldn't that be a weak spot?
bill22
05-08-2011, 07:13 PM
They do get hot in the summer.
I've never worn a plastic hard hat, are they cooler in the summer?
I suppose you could get a vented hard hat but wouldn't that be a weak spot?
I don't think so, if so the petzl vented climbers helmet wouldn't be on the market.
Thor's Hammer
05-08-2011, 07:14 PM
I wear a petzl verte vent. But I love the MacT hat. Butch, baileys used to sell them, but no longer I think.
MasterBlaster
05-08-2011, 07:17 PM
You should always keep thinking!!!
:P
Bailey's still have them. We got one for each of the crew last time we ordered gear from them. Sets us apart from everyone else here, which is nice.
Speaking of gear from Bailey's, I believe you still have a bunch of bars and chain sitting at Richard's mom's place, Ed.
flushcut
05-09-2011, 04:39 PM
Baileys sell a updated version called Skull Bucket.
Thor's Hammer
05-09-2011, 05:39 PM
Bailey's still have them. We got one for each of the crew last time we ordered gear from them. Sets us apart from everyone else here, which is nice.
Speaking of gear from Bailey's, I believe you still have a bunch of bars and chain sitting at Richard's mom's place, Ed.
It finally made its way here about a week ago Stig. Thanks for your's / Kate's help. Must order a genuine MacT net time, I have a plastic eurofied version.
I was told on my first day of residential tree work to leave mine in the truck due too electrical hazards in the trees:( Sad day
So Burnham is there any non-full brim hats that you can use earmuffs and screens with that are compliant?
bstewert
05-10-2011, 01:08 AM
Burnham, would you elaborate on the reason for that skimmed face cut in post #24, the one with the yellow wedge sitting on the ledge? Thanks.
wiley_p
05-10-2011, 10:13 AM
The MacDonald T has not been in production for several years. The Skullbucket is a knockoff from China.
Burnham
05-10-2011, 11:19 AM
So Burnham is there any non-full brim hats that you can use earmuffs and screens with that are compliant?
Bullard makes two basic models of hardhats in their Wildfire line, meeting the required standard, which is NFPA 1977...one is full brim and one is brimmed at the front only. But neither accept muffs or face screens. They offer an adapter for a flip down polycarbonate face screen, but I don't know if that meets NFPA standards. I've never seen one, just note it on their website.
Bullard is the sole supplier used by USFS, but that doesn't mean there isn't a product out there that is both NFPA compliant and accepts muffs/screen. I don't know of it, is all.
The MacDonald T has not been in production for several years. The Skullbucket is a knockoff from China.
Just went and looked inside mine.
Sure nuff'.......Made in China.
Burnham
05-10-2011, 11:27 AM
Burnham, would you elaborate on the reason for that skimmed face cut in post #24, the one with the yellow wedge sitting on the ledge? Thanks.
Not sure what you are asking about, Bob. If you mean the bark slabbed off at the corners of the face, that's to get rid of that 3+ inches of bark that makes dogging in and reading matched cuts difficult. Also favors reaching all the way across the facecut with a bar that's somewhat too short to do it in one go.
ValleyArborist
05-11-2011, 04:50 PM
You know, I have what I feel is a really good library of reference materials on tree felling and saw work in general ( Dent's book, Beraneks book, Jepsons, numerous other resources), I've also studied under some really good cutters. Nothing, however, beats reading these posts and seeing these pics for the past few years I've been lurking around here. Class in always in session here, a lot to be learned.
Thor's Hammer
05-11-2011, 05:04 PM
True, but there's always a few of us goofing around at the back of class too...
woodworkingboy
05-11-2011, 05:08 PM
Haha..and still the teachers don't give up on us. That is dedication!
pantheraba
05-11-2011, 05:25 PM
Welcome, Valley, and thanks for piping up. Feel free to post some of the stuff you have done...sharing here is what keeps us going.
bstewert
05-11-2011, 07:03 PM
Burnham, in pics 6,7,8 of that post, where the bark is skimmed off, like a 18" x 2" deep face cut. The yellow wedge is standing on the little ledge. It's totally on the back side of the cut.
inbredJed
05-11-2011, 07:35 PM
Yeah Sir: I think he's just slabbin' off a bit of that wolfey bark so that he has got something solid to dog off of for his near corner. Sometimes, when you slice vertically through the bark till you start to hit cambium, it's easier to just keep on cruizin downwards with the bar farther than one would need to, but then, you can just make a bar-deep (I should have said bark-deep) little horizontal cut in order to nip through the bark. Does that make an ounce of sense? That might be the "tiny face" you're referring to.
If you're referring to the back-cut: that's just to ensure that the spongy bark doesn't minimize your wedging capability.
I don't think Doug had much of a teacher, other than the school of hard knocks as a young bull of a custom cutter in western Oregon in the late 60's and 70's.
That's a heavy sentence, B.
I never liked the MacT cuz it funnels sound with the full brim into your ears, bigtime.
woodworkingboy
05-11-2011, 09:13 PM
Don't you guys find that a brimmed hat blocks your vision when working at the base and looking up? I have to hack most of it off. I dunno, perhaps due to limited neck range mobility, either an inherited trait or perhaps from a lot of muscularity? 8)
bstewert
05-11-2011, 09:15 PM
Yeah Sir: I think he's just slabbin' off a bit of that wolfey bark so that he has got something solid to dog off of for his near corner. Sometimes, when you slice vertically through the bark till you start to hit cambium, it's easier to just keep on cruizin downwards with the bar farther than one would need to, but then, you can just make a bar-deep (I should have said bark-deep) little horizontal cut in order to nip through the bark. Does that make an ounce of sense? That might be the "tiny face" you're referring to.
If you're referring to the back-cut: that's just to ensure that the spongy bark doesn't minimize your wedging capability.
I see your point about spongy bark minimizing wedging capability, and having something more solid to dog off. I will remember that if I ever cut down something that big. It looks like that slab face starts 6-8" below the wedges and dog. So I'm still not understanding.
It is not a face cut, he just shaved the bark off, most times you get into wood just a bit. Chainsaw bark peeling. Unless you were to bore into the bark you will alomst always shave it at a slight angle resulting in that little ledge. If that isn't clear maybe you could draw on the picture and repost it so we can see what you mean
wiley_p
05-12-2011, 01:03 AM
#1 reason to skin bark off on dead hammers,is so a sheet of bark that loosens up don't have your wedges lifting a huge slab of bark instead of lifting the stem into the face. getting rid of irregular contours in the trunk is an ancillary benefit.
woodworkingboy
05-12-2011, 08:47 AM
Was pulling a pretty good sized Pine a couple months ago, a guy I always work with on a backhoe, and me cutting at the stump. We had a block set up so he wasn't in the lay, and he couldn't see the tree. I was about a third of the way in to where I wanted to be with the back cut, or however it was supposed to go, and he ripped the sucker over. A real mess at the stump and dangerous. I said wtf? Said he couldn't see the tree, a lame remark and it pissed me off. I don't know what was in his mind, but we never work like that. Always pull on instructions to do so, or just pay attention and easy does it until the time is right, Definitely he should have known better, years of experience and working like an idiot, what can you do? It was the end of a long day.
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