Crane Size

[Sep]

I have been thinking about purchasing a crane. We work in tight areas, have a rear mount bucket, and often times use our small chip truck. Space is limited on most jobs. We often times hire in a 23 ton crane on jobs, and its too big and heavy to get into tight areas. I was thinking about buying an 18 ton crane, it will fit in tighter areas, and I don't mind taking smaller picks. Will the 18 ton do the job for me?

[MasterBlaster]

Sure! It's as small as I would ever wanna go, though. 22 or a 'lil bigger is usually better, but you can TCOB with a 17 or 18.

A rear mount is my favorite configuration.

http://gypoclimber.com/slideshow/crane-slideshow/images/crane-09.jpg

[No_Bivy]

nah.....28 ton rear mount is awesome....more boom, for almost the same size truck. If you want really tight access consider an AT crane....but they cost more....I sub all my crane work, and have the luxury of getting to pick the right crane to fit the job.

this was a tight set up with a 28 ton rear mount terex 6000

[woodworkingboy]

:O I was surprised to see how little width that model 28 ton takes up, without the outriggers.

[Mr. Sir]

Just make sure you know your limits. :O

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[arborworks1]

I have never understood how you turn over a crane picking up a static load.

Was PAul Nosak driving that one?

[Mr. Sir]

It's not that hard when you start swinging it around like a fishing pole.

[woodworkingboy]

It usually happens to operators who like to go bouncy bouncy.

[sotc]

wow!

[CurSedVoyce]

Now I'm Skeered!:O

[No_Bivy]

looked like a really heavy pick.......

dont be skeered cursedvoice.....if crane can pick 10k...take 5k:D

[No_Bivy]

heres a 70 ton in a tighter spot:D

but you'll have to shell out some bucks for that, like 800k or so:\:

[rangerdanger]

That is one sweet looking rig!!!

[CurSedVoyce]

True... I don't mind cuttin them smaller ;)
Still never done a crane job yet... Would be a bit nerve racking for everyone I guess.

[MasterBlaster]

"The crane wasn't properly grounded," LOL.

[darkstar]

Thats 70 ton is soso sweet .
I would love to have that baby.
We could work her 360 days a year.
We spoke alot John , in past years.
Im still amazed that you can get cranes for so many jobs.
We are constantly doing it the hard way because the crane just eats to much money.I payed 920 cash for the 65 ton last week for 6.5 hours .
It was actually under their hourly rate.
He was the only crane guy who would deal with the set up on that tiny narrow hilly one way street.

[No_Bivy]

It may eat money...but it makes the impossible..possible.

[Skwerl]

The way I look at it, a crane turns a 2 day job into a 6 hour job. So which is more expensive, 6 hours of crane time or an extra 12 hours for the entire crew?

[No_Bivy]

I lova crane job....

[MasterBlaster]

You gotta do something with the trunk. Slicing and dicing just ain't gonna cut it.

[No_Bivy]

yep...

[darkstar]

That set up looks tiny.

[ewsa]

I like how in that one picture they put the outrigger inside the shed, definatly Tight!

[arborworks1]

I'm with Bivy on this, I like playing the Crane Card cause it gets me out of there faster, usually with more money in pocket.

And always another job cause someone saw you doing that with a crane.

[darkstar]

Anyhow to answer his question 20 ton or up. 18 will do but dont go below that for sure.

[arborworks1]

I prefer 22 ton truck or At. Bigger is always better, but you can never get the big cranes in and out easy

[Jamin Mayer]

I'm with Bivy on this, I like playing the Crane Card cause it gets me out of there faster, usually with more money in pocket.

And always another job cause someone saw you doing that with a crane.

And it is much less wear and tear on the climber.8)

Not so much for the groundies. :whine:

[sotc]

john, have you ever had driveway damage from the crane?

[Skwerl]

I'm not John, and it's been a few years, but about the only driveway damage I ever had from a crane was from outrigger pressure.

I take that back. We had one once where we had to get a 35 ton AT into a back yard via an old driveway with lots of roots and air pockets under it. Driveway damage was expected and the release was signed, and that crane popped every single section of that slab all the way from the street down the side of the house. POP! POP! POP! POP! :lol:

[sotc]

did that once with a bucket truck tire.
my first crane job after i went on my own the crane guy rolled a tire onto an acid washed slab and broke it:dur: cost me 500 bucks. makes me nervous enough i often decide to do a tree old school if theres nice driveways around

[lumberjack]

We snaked a 100T down a 10' asphalt drive and it busted about 6-8' right before the driveway met the parking area.

The third tree I removed with a crane the operators didn't look at the layout sheet and drove right across a 2 car parking pad they were suppose to straddle with the outriggers. They said it wouldn't fit, the manager and I already looked and insured that it would. They destroyed the pad and busted a water meter.

With the 175 we drove across a commercial concrete parking lot, and while we technically broke the concrete, it wasn't obvious. Standing on the pad as the crane rolled on you could feel when each section broke under the weight, but these were hairline fractures that aren't noticeable 2 years later.

When I subbed Asplunds (abridged spelling) knuckle boom truck the outrigger pad broke through a city street once.

With an 80' JLG (36klbs on 4 tires) I busted a potting shed's foundation all to hell. They had tore the shed down and were going to remove the foundation after I broke it up. Ironically the only thing I broke with the 120' (48klbs on 4 tire) was some bricks in the column of the garage when the steering went wack. ($150 to fix)

I've had the rollers of a roll off box groove a city street or two. 45klbs on 2 8" wide 6" diameter steel rollers with square edges tends to do that.

Best I can remember, that's it.

[sotc]

sounds like plenty to me!

[lumberjack]

Aside from the $150 for the bricks, the customer's were indifferent with the "damage" or the damage wasn't my fault.

The customer where I broke the bricks spent another couple-few grand this past year with me, which is when I busted their dranage ditch and fixed it back good as new and they're still happy as clams with me.

[CurSedVoyce]

Is that when you can just say ... "hey it wern't me" ?

[lumberjack]

I couldn't care much less about the city streets. The parking pad was on me but the crane company came to bat right away and took care of it.

The 10' driveway was a job I was a sub on. The homeowners were paying for the crane, and we nearly used a helicopter instead to prevent damage to the drive.

[woodworkingboy]

Been wanting to start a thread on useful cuts for crane picks, but I need to get some photos first. Crane jobs suddenly became scarce.

[arborworks1]

Yes sir Crane work dried up around here as well. I haven't removed a descent sized tree in a while. Mostly small dead trees or perfectly heathly live tree that folks are taking out to redo some landscape or home repairs.

Mostly pruning and leaving. Which works for me Hourly rate no Cleanup:D

[lumberjack]

If I was in the market for a crane, I'd get a self erector, no doubt.

[MasterBlaster]

What is a self errector? http://www.thecomputermechanics.com/forums/images/smilies/124.gif

[woodworkingboy]

:scratch:

[lumberjack]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/erector.jpg

Some specs:
Transport weight: 42klbs
Counterweights: 68klbs
Stowed deminsions:52'x8'x13'
Outrigger Footprint 13'9"x13'9"

Max lift capacity: 13.2klbs @ 40'
Max radius: 148' @ 91' of hook height 2.4klbs
Max hook height: 162' @ 128' radius, 2.4klbs
Capacity @ 100'=5.5klbs.

[MasterBlaster]

What does that construction crane have to do with anything?

[lumberjack]

It's just a crane, it doesn't care what the weight is as long as it's in chart.

It sets up in the same footprint as my Genie, but has the reach and (extended) capacity of a 150T crane. You could park it at the 50 yard line of a football field, set up in an area the smaller than my living room, reach to one end zone, pick up my Civic, and 60-70 seconds later have it in the other end zone. The crane and counterweights could be delivered with 2 truck loads (3 would be more ideal), set up in an hour, and be able to cover over an acre and a half from that one setup.

It could do any tree I've done with a crane.

It's not perfect for normal tree work, but it'd be hard to not make money with it. Everyone has boom trucks, the self erector market is brand new and growing like a bastard. Nothing says you can't have more than 1 crane, and if I was in the market, that's the style I'd get first.

[MasterBlaster]

You go first.

[lumberjack]

I'm moving in a different direction. If I would have known about them when they first started coming about in 06, things may have been different.

[darkstar]

Which direction are you moving Carl ?

[lumberjack]

Still in trees, but not a 6 day a week caption barron. More along the lines of a 1-2 day a week, and (in theory) get another job to fill 4 days a week, (in theory) 75k+ a year on a 5 day week before taxes.

The 4 day a week job would cover my annual expenses, the tree money would be cream. Cures the 4 months of winter blues and opens new possibilities while minimizing the roads it closes.

[treesmith]

Lumberjack, what would a crane like that cost, and do they make smaller ones?

[MasterBlaster]

Yea Carl - do tell.

[sawinredneck]

I must admit I am intrigued about setting a base for this machine to operate off of, where the hour setup time comes from, as well as the cost.

[MasterBlaster]

I can envision tree companys everywhere using them.

[sawinredneck]

Not seeing it yet Butch. These things are prone to collapse with even the most skilled operator. Wind is a MAJOR problem for them, and I seriously doubt the one hour setup time.

[CurSedVoyce]

They do make smaller self driven ones... I saw one that came from over seas one time on the net.. I am trying to find it..
Folds up so small it can go under arches and real tight areas... Like walking through a gate... Tight steering.. Self erecting in like 20 mins and towable.. It looked like it was made for those tight cobble stone streets in Europe where clearance etc is a huge issue..

[CurSedVoyce]

Here is a larger version of which I am speaking... still looking..
http://www.bhaiengineering.com/towercrane.htm

[CurSedVoyce]

Here's some towable ones
http://www.manitowoccranegroup.com/MCG_POT_AM/Products/EN/igoma13.asp

[lumberjack]

Of course they make smaller ones. They make a few small enough to tow with a 1 ton.

That particular model would be under $300k delivered anywhere in the US. Various options would bring the price down.

I meant to say 1 day, not 1 hour. Mechanical erectors take a while longer to set up, but you gain capacity and in general hydro machines top out around 88' with a 0* luff, 110ish with a 17-18* luff, and most of the hydro's don't have luffing capabilities.

The machine above (K45T) at 0* has 148' beneath the hook, 162' at 30*.

At Lyon arboretum in Hawaii, it would be a big help for removing the cluster of 13 (?) albizias. I remember Leon thinking that job would run $250-300k.

[lumberjack]

...I seriously doubt the one hour setup time.


On a hydro machine, unfolding the works only takes about 20 minutes, longer on the mechanical. The less level the ground is, the longer it would take to get it level enough for the machine to compensate for, that can eat a couple hours. The counterweights can take an hour to put on, depending on your setup. The "figure" is 4 hours on a hydro, 8 on a mechanical. On a reasonably level surface, with a knuckle boom on the counterweight truck, and a couple skilled people, the time would be considerably less.



Tower cranes are no more prone to topple than any other crane that is set up comparatively. The cranes that went down in NY were no where near properly set up. A truck crane will topple over if the operator doesn't deploy the outriggers, that's hardly the crane's fault or a design flaw. Wind isn't any crane's friend, in a storm boom cranes have the advantage of being able normally to suck the boom in and lay it down whereas a tower crane is set to windmill.

[CurSedVoyce]

Still can't find that one I saw.. Was awesome engineering for tight places.. That thing would fit in places I would not believe possible.

[CurSedVoyce]

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[FJR]

I remember that, it set back the grand opening a full year. Really scary to say the least.

[CurSedVoyce]

Would have seen me run ... Fur Sure!

[rbtree]

Carl, at one day to set up and one day to take down...that's what, easy, $5000 in setup costs....over double the setup time for a lattice boom crane.....the guy that has one here in the PNW has retired from tree work. His was a 70 tonner with 180 feet of stick. He would take a 110 foot fir, one piece, over the house..... brush and all, unless it was too big and heavy. a lattice boom crane can handle a lot more than a telescoping crane as its boom is light.

[lumberjack]

Packing up is significantly faster than setting up. The crane could be set up and taken back down in 12 hours or less I'd figure. A hydro crane could be up and down in 6 or less.

Over half the time is getting the site/crane level and the safety/operating parameters set. When it comes time to pack up as soon as the boom is folded, start pulling counter weights as it's being derigged and stowed.

A lattice crane's footprint isn't much different than a hydro truck, this sets up in roughly 1/4 the space.


It's what I'd get, not trying to convince anyone it's right for them but I am trying to explain why I like it so.

[MasterBlaster]

Carl, you talk as if you've had experience with this equipment. Is that true? And if so, do go on!

[Stumper]

What is a self errector? http://www.thecomputermechanics.com/forums/images/smilies/124.gif

Shucks, I got one of those built in. I was born with it.

[MasterBlaster]

Same here, unless I've had one too many. :drink:

[CurSedVoyce]

I prefer not to erect anything alone... LMAO

[Skwerl]

12 hours to set up a crane is way too expensive for treework. If the crane is only worth $150 per hour then setup will add $1800 to the cost. This can work when you're building a skyscraper and the crane will be used for many weeks or months, but is unrealistic for a 1 day job.

Truck mounted cranes can set up in 15-30 minutes. Much easier to still be profitable on a 4-6 hour job.

[lumberjack]

12 hours up and down B-mang.

In post 43 I said it wasn't perfect for normal tree work, but regular cranes are a dime a dozen and I prefer a market with lower competition. If I expected enough tree volume to keep a boom truck busy, obviously there's no reason not to get one.

However, since my "tree area" has less than 60k people, a boom truck wouldn't be kept busy doing tree work. Since for tree work near 90% of my time has been with cranes from 100-175T, I wouldn't get a boom truck just for tree work as I can get a 28T rear mount for $120 an hour, 2 hour minimum. There have been quite a few jobs where a crane with 150' of reach would have been epically awesome, especially on jobs removing large numbers of trees around a home. The tiny set up deminsions is also not a bad thing. With this crane I could expand a bit area wise and hunt for the larger removal jobs with several trees getting removed from a single setup.

Construction wise, a 3-4 hour radius would certainly keep it busy. Here there's 3 main crane companies and another 2-3 companys with boom trucks. It'd be foolish to jump in fighting for market share (since I don't have enough tree work) with something that's no different than what everyone else already has paid for. So, I'd get a self erector.

MB, I've only seen them in passing, never used one. I first read about them in 06 (Crane industry rag) and have followed teir development.

[No_Bivy]

your dreamin dude

[lumberjack]

I'm ok with that, my parents said the same thing about getting in the tree biz, man lift, chipper, chip truck, mini skid, and dump trailer.

[Mr. Sir]

You're still young, you'll outgrow that. :D

[MasterBlaster]

Youth is wasted on the young.

[No_Bivy]

carl...that aint dreamin....but setting up a tower crane for a tree job is:lol:

[Mr. Sir]

Carl, you just need a girlfriend to take your mind off of this "self-erector" dream. :lol:

[lumberjack]

:/:

[Jamin Mayer]

Carl isn't alone with his thinking with this... Yep, I've thought of the self erector cranes for tree work as well.

However, I have only visualized one of these used for multiple jobs in one day. Stay with me here. It would be ideal in a cul-de-sac. Say, you had 5 homes inside the working radius of the crane. All 5 of them are victims of E.A.B. (or some other destructive bug). So, you have 5 customers taken care of in one day.;)

Now that is dream'n. 8)

[NeTree]

Dreamin' indeed.

[arborworks1]

A slight derail, but a heavy lift helicopter would be a good purchase, There can't be that many around the east coast.

Back to self erecting cranes..

[MasterBlaster]

Back to self erecting cranes..

Yea, back to THAT. :lol:

[woodworkingboy]

This must be a morning thread :D

[Mr. Sir]

Good one, Jay! That was funny! :lol:

[No_Bivy]

where the hell is the dude who started this thread:/:

[Sep]

Right here, I'm still weighing out what I want to do. We used cranes on almost 20 jobs this year, and made good money on all of them. We had alot more jobs that we could have hammered out with a crane. The question is if in this economy work is going to be busy enough that doing a large volume of work is going to happen?

[No_Bivy]

so......rear mount 28 ton ......or just keep subbin'

[woodworkingboy]

28 ton sounds real good. Get one with a jib for longer reach.

[No_Bivy]

jibs out to 140'

[lumberjack]

(Looking at the Manitowoc 2892S)

The crane w/o cab weighs 22.4klbs, the telescopic jib is 1226lbs, and the cab is 575lbs. The 14' flat bed is 1260lbs.

The telescopic jib is good for a max of 5400lbs (25' radius, 145' tip height). the winch is rated for up to 8500lbs of line pull.

The chassis requirements require a 258" wheel base, 192" CA, 277" cab to end of frame. Minimum 52klb GVW, 18k up front and 34k in the rear with a minimum 8k/8.3k on the front/rear axles (w/o the crane)

147'9" tip height w/ telescopic jib, 690lbs @ 105' max radius.
820@ 90' max radius with the boom only (1080lbs with the jib swung)

Not a bad size for straight tree work.

[MasterBlaster]

Yea, I bet they're gonna be all the rage.

[lumberjack]

:roll:

[MasterBlaster]

:roll:

http://nerdflood.googlepages.com/onoz.gif





:lol:

[CurSedVoyce]

So basically as I see it.. when it comes to cranes... SIZE DOES MATTER.. there I said it ... I know I know its expected and has been said before.. But somebody always does.. this time it was me.. There ya have it .. :lol::lol::lol:

[wiley_p]

(Looking at the Manitowoc 2892S)

The crane w/o cab weighs 22.4klbs, the telescopic jib is 1226lbs, and the cab is 575lbs. The 14' flat bed is 1260lbs.

The telescopic jib is good for a max of 5400lbs (25' radius, 145' tip height). the winch is rated for up to 8500lbs of line pull.

The chassis requirements require a 258" wheel base, 192" CA, 277" cab to end of frame. Minimum 52klb GVW, 18k up front and 34k in the rear with a minimum 8k/8.3k on the front/rear axles (w/o the crane)

147'9" tip height w/ telescopic jib, 690lbs @ 105' max radius.
820@ 90' max radius with the boom only (1080lbs with the jib swung)

Not a bad size for straight tree work.

How in the hell can you have a tip height of 147' at a max radius of 105'

[lumberjack]

One is it's max elevation, the other is it's max reach.

Max elevation is at 22.5' radius, and max radius is at 100 elevation.

[wiley_p]

your statement was 147' tip ht at 105' radius. That makes it seem like a long boom length. Even at 25' radius your still looking at a boom length over 155' to achieve a 147' tip ht.

[darkstar]

Get the 20 ton or bigger boom truck bro , you will be set.

[Jamin Mayer]

I have been wondering this myself. My crane operator has a 40T boom crane. It seems to get the reach we need at 105'. So, I have been looking at 40T cranes for myself some day.

However, I think I would rather get a K-boom.8)

[MasterBlaster]

Too big/ too small - they both suck.

I would buy a 22 ton. :drink:

[woodworkingboy]

Going back to the original post, Sep was saying that he can't get in to a lot, or maybe, most jobs, with a larger crane. Is 18 tons sufficient he wonders? If he can get in close, I think that 18 tons will do most jobs for him.