Wedges....

[top hopper]

Im looking for advice on the best felling wedge for felling small diameter trees. Average diameter between 8-15 inches. Some trees may be slightly smaller and some will be larger, but the majority are within the 8- 15 inch range.

We have a job coming up removing 800 Red and White Pines. We are basically thinning a stand. Timber will be salvaged and cut into predetermined lengths.

Im thinking 8" double tapered, but am open to advice. Im looking forward to this job as I will get to really work on my felling skills.

[squisher]

8-15"s I'd just push em over.:D

Jk'ing, sounds like you're on the right path imo.

[wiley_p]

7d's. Nice and short, wide front, triplentaper, lots of lift.:evil:

[sotc]

maybe a felling bar would be good in that scenario

[CurSedVoyce]

Good suggestion Willie !

[Reddog]

In small diameter pulp we would use a wooden pole about 8' long. It was also our measure stick for 8' 2" pulp length.
In the end would be a 16D nail with the head cut off and sharpened.
Gives a lot of leverage to push small diameter trees over.
Along with 7" and 8" high lift wedges it worked well.

Never tried a felling bar, so no idea on that.

[sotc]

if nothing else it keep the cut open till you get the saw out and a wedge in
http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/119986_lg.jpg

[Reddog]

I assume it is steel?
Would be hard on chains if you hit it.

[top hopper]

Good idea Willie. Im definatley gonna add that to the list.

[top hopper]

7d's. Nice and short, wide front, triplentaper, lots of lift.:evil:

Call me naive, but whats a 7d? I guess I wasnt aware of a triple taper. I want to get the most lift possible.

[sotc]

Would be hard on chains if you hit it.

probably:/:

[wiley_p]

Call me naive, but whats a 7d? I guess I wasnt aware of a triple taper. I want to get the most lift possible.

I've always found them at any good sawshop, Bailey's, etc. I believe they are made by Double Taper wedge. There are 7d, and 10d 7" and 10". I use the 7's alot. Often in smaller wood its my first and often only wedge needed. I call it a triple taper, probably improperly, due tom what I see as three different angles of lift on the wedge unlike the normal falling wedge shape. The last third of the wedge really steepens in angle.

[Skwerl]

The little mini cant hook is nice as well. Looks like a handy little one-hand tool for assisting bucking up logs on the ground.

[lumberjack]

Seems like a mini skid would be jim dandy if the access was right.

[Stumper]

Too slow Carlito. Thinning ops usually require putting trres on the ground in a hurry...top did say that salvage is alos involved so a mini might help productivity in this case but trees of the size indicated won't make you any money doing complex rigging in a forestry setting or tying up 2 men and machine. Little wedges, push stick and maybe a felling bar(I've never used a felling bar but if I had another thinning contract I would experiment with one. )

[squisher]

Push sticks really do work amazingly well.

[Swe#kipp]

I do thinnings from time to time and use wedges axe and fellingbar, fellingssticks are made when needed :)
When using the canthook on the fellingbar you can roll down hang up trees when your sight was not what it was supposed to be :P
you can give the felling bar more roll leverage by use a thin stem between the the tree trunk and the handle of the felling bar !

[stig]

For that size of trees, definitely felling bar. Just keep a couple of wedges near by, in case there is a tree you can't lever over with the bar.
The felling bar in the picture is the short model, Stihl makes one that is about 3½ feet long, that works a lot better. Gives you lots of leverage.

[gf beranek]

7D. Best wedge for small trees. Take mine and Dave's word on it.

[lumberjack]

Too slow Carlito. Thinning ops usually require putting trres on the ground in a hurry...top did say that salvage is alos involved so a mini might help productivity in this case but trees of the size indicated won't make you any money doing complex rigging in a forestry setting or tying up 2 men and machine. Little wedges, push stick and maybe a felling bar(I've never used a felling bar but if I had another thinning contract I would experiment with one. )

Complex rigging? I was thinking of pushing them over ezpz like.

[Stumper]

My point was that neither complex rigging Nor using a amachine make good return for time. The machine means two guys and a machine are tied up withone dinky tree-and there are hundreds to fell. 9Of course in normal thinning most trees are balanced trees that you simply cut and hand push toward the lay. Commercial thinning without salvage is bid based upon acres per man per day. You can't make money based upon manhours or minutes per tree-the work should progress in trees per minute. I realize that what I am describing is NOT precisely what Top is outlining but I'd lay odds that he isn't figuring on making any money unless a lot of trees hit the deck every day of work.

[woodworkingboy]

I think that Stumpers point is well taken, about a machine for pushing. If you have a lot of decent sized trees to cut that are leaning against the lay, that's when pushing can make up a lot of time. A different scenario than what was mentioned.

[top hopper]

Seems like a mini skid would be jim dandy if the access was right.


There'll be 2 swingers on site. One for skidding, the other at the deck. Yes some could be pushed over with the loader, but the idea is to keep the trees coming down whilst the swinger stays busy forwarding material. Id be a fool to take on a job like that without a good selection of wedges in my pocket. Even with a loader on site.

[top hopper]

but I'd lay odds that he isn't figuring on making any money unless a lot of trees hit the deck every day of work.


I dunno 3 to 6 trees per hour?
From the time its felled to being cut to length and stacked at the deck.
Some smaller trees may go in 5 minutes or less, but there are some bigger ones that could take up to a 1/2 hour. The Red Pines being the smaller, but some of the bigger white pines have a substantial amount of crown to them so may take a bit more time and encouragement. Id say average height is 70-80 feet?
The trick will be felling them without getting hung up in other trees, thats where the Swinger will be very helpful.
Im looking forward to this project. Should be next month sometime, and its at a huge corporate headquarters here in the cities. Im going to use the oppurtunity to quit smoking as well since, smoking is not allowed on the site and STRICTLY enforced. And since Ill be on the same site for 2-3 weeks I may as well use it to my advantage.

[sotc]

how many guys are you baseing those numbers on? 2? hauling chips? how far of a drag?

[top hopper]

3 to 4?
1 felling
1 forwarding on swinger
1-2 at the deck?

No chipping, just fell them, cut, haul logs and stack. Leave all brush, possibly cut flush to ground? Drag distance will vary, but roughly 1-200 yards?

Man, Daves CEO grapple would come in handy there!!

[sotc]

bet youll do much better than you think then. may not need to keep one at the deck all the time. usually better to drag logs behind you (reverse even if its slower speed, unless theres a way to pull a small trailer or attach logs to back with a cable) than try to weave through a forest with one in front, also you can pull more than you can lift

[top hopper]

For sure will be pulling. i figured possibly 2 at the deck just to get them cut to exact lengths and to strip the logs of stubs and any brush still hanging on.

Idea is- 1 feller cutting like mad, Swinger pulling out trees with tops removed, but other wise uncut in length, (to maximize skidding), one guy at deck stripping remaining brush and stubs from logs, while other guy is cutting to length and stacking for pick up. On the swinger's return trip into the woods grab a load of cut brush and bring back into woods, that way its hauling both ways, and we dont spend time in the woods cutting off all the brush, and I dont have to worry about other people in the woods while I fell.

[sotc]

sounds like a good plan:thumbup: you have a logtape or 3 right?
http://www.baileysonline.com/prod_images/15495_L.jpg

[top hopper]

Not yet. Im working up a list of things I'll need.

Wedges, axe, log tapes, paint, felling bar, peavy bar, and a push button tally counter.

Im sure I'll think of more.

[Skwerl]

Look at www.logrite.com for your peavey/ cant/ felling bar needs. Best damn tools on the market. They even market their cant hooks through Stihl (with an orange paint job). Small owner-operator business in CT with an excellent reputation worldwide.

Do I sound like a salesman yet? :lol:

[Reddog]

Yes, but they are great tools and good people.

[top hopper]

Look at www.logrite.com for your peavey/ cant/ felling bar needs. Best damn tools on the market. They even market their cant hooks through Stihl (with an orange paint job). Small owner-operator business in CT with an excellent reputation worldwide.

Do I sound like a salesman yet? :lol:


I appreciate that Brian.

Ok- now I have a question. I can see the difference between the cant hooks and the peavy bars, but what is the difference in application for each. The peavy has a straight point, while the cant has a hook on the end. Arent both used to roll logs about? Can some explain the applications for each and recommend which would be best?

[lumberjack]

Sounds like a fun job, need some help?

[MasterBlaster]

The point on the Peavy is meant for extending the reach for pushing. The Cant hook is more for turning the log.

I think I said that right. :drink:

And the cant hooks I've worked with were flat on the end - no "hook."

[Skwerl]

Peaveys were developed for busting up logjams when they used to float logs down the rivers to the mills. These days the only good use for the point is to stick it in your foot or to stick in the ground to keep the tool upright and visible when you aren't holding it. I prefer the cant. Although if you're going to be working in the woods then maybe the peavey might be less likely to get lost.

[Dave Shepard]

A cant hook is used for rolling cants, or basically what you have after you've slabbed a log and gotten it square. A peavey is more of a woods tool. I have a 60" cant hook, a 30" "Mill Special" cant hook, and a "Hookaroon", all custom made for me in Stihl orange.:/::D I also have a log scale in International 1/4" scale. The LogRites really are tops. You can order them from Bailey's when you get your Spencer tape.:)

What are you doing with the tops and slash? Are you just leaving it, or do you have to clean it up? I'd think two fellers, a swinger, and a guy on the header to buck would give you good production. If you're leaving the slash in the woods, I'd get it all off the tree there. In this type of situation, the feller limbs and "rings" the trunk of the tree where the header guy is to cut out the logs. This gets as much of the unused tree in the woods. You could also have one guy felling, and another limbing/ringing. Two guys on the header will get really bored, I would think. You've got a short skid, so the swinger could also work the header, as another scenario.

[top hopper]

I figured the cant would be better for rolling. Thats what it'll be then.

[Reddog]

In the woods I prefer a peavy. You can use it like a pry bar also. The point makes it easier to get under things.

[top hopper]

A cant hook is used for rolling cants, or basically what you have after you've slabbed a log and gotten it square. A peavey is more of a woods tool. I have a 60" cant hook, a 30" "Mill Special" cant hook, and a "Hookaroon", all custom made for me in Stihl orange.:/::D I also have a log scale in International 1/4" scale. The LogRites really are tops. You can order them from Bailey's when you get your Spencer tape.:)

What are you doing with the tops and slash? Are you just leaving it, or do you have to clean it up? I'd think two fellers, a swinger, and a guy on the header to buck would give you good production. If you're leaving the slash in the woods, I'd get it all off the tree there. In this type of situation, the feller limbs and "rings" the trunk of the tree where the header guy is to cut out the logs. This gets as much of the unused tree in the woods. You could also have one guy felling, and another limbing/ringing. Two guys on the header will get really bored, I would think. You've got a short skid, so the swinger could also work the header, as another scenario.

The tops and slash will be left, and gone over with a mulch mower thingy by the corporation (or so they say), we may end up having to haul and chip the tops, we will see.
Regarding whether 1 or 2 people are at the deck (header?) we will see, trial and error I guess. Id rather know Im the only person in the woods and I can fell indiscriminately without having to wonder where other people are at. Id only have to keep an eye out for the swinger loader. The plan may change as we move through it, but I think we could keep two people busy at the header provided the trees keep falling and the swinger keeps skidding. The bulk of the brush would be stripped in the woods, but I would prefer to keep the feller felling rather than processing.

[top hopper]

Sounds like a fun job, need some help?


If it were up to me Id say c'mon up. But alas, it is not. Sorry cuz! :(

[lumberjack]

Now that I think about it, I bet ya'll have more help than work until spring.

[squisher]

If there's room I'd go in a few days before and fell a bunch to get ahead of the skidder. You don't want to have to be waiting on him every cycle he makes and it could pose safety/communication issues if he's coming up and skidding to close to your falling. Sounds like fun.8)

Normally in logging, atleast how we always did it, the faller is way ahead and nowhere near the actual skidding.

[top hopper]

Good idea, but I want the loader fairly close as the stand is tight and the likelihood of getting a tree hung in another is good. The loader will easily pull it free. We are thinning, not clearcutting, so I probably cant just go dump the next tree in which the last one is hung up in.
Otherwise I wont be waiting, I'll just keep felling them one after another and if the loader keeps up great, if not, no biggie.

[Bermy]

I assume it is steel?
Would be hard on chains if you hit it.

Steel yes, split level cuts keep your chain out of the way...very useful for neutral lean trees, back leaners, or rolling out hungups, as long as they are smallish.

[squisher]

Good idea, but I want the loader fairly close as the stand is tight and the likelihood of getting a tree hung in another is good. The loader will easily pull it free. We are thinning, not clearcutting, so I probably cant just go dump the next tree in which the last one is hung up in.
Otherwise I wont be waiting, I'll just keep felling them one after another and if the loader keeps up great, if not, no biggie.

Well the trick would be to not be hanging up trees then.:P

[Skwerl]

John, have you started on this job yet?

I was over at Forestry Forum and stumbled across this thread with pictures of the LogRite factory. If anybody is interested, it's here:
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,31003.0.html
And here:
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,31006.0.html

[Burnham]

Just catching up, sorry to be so belated...I agree with Dave and Jer that the double taper 7d is a fine wedge for smaller trees, but for the size range diameters John has specified I fear it will be a bit too long for a good portion of the work. For trees 8 to 15 inches, the backcut will have to be nearly complete before there's space to get that wedge in without being driven into the chain. And for as tall a stand as he mentions, I'd want a wedge in early...those leggy trees can be difficult to get a good read of the lean sometimes.

I'd have to add a handfull of the little ones to my kit if I were doing that job, the narrow 5 inchers.

The one on the left in this picture.
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=15334&catID=301

[woodworkingboy]

Using larger wedges on smaller trees, that's how I was able to get some smaller wedges,

eventually :|: I just reshaped them on the big bench grinder.
Starting off with smaller wedges would have been better :roll:

[Burnham]

Using larger wedges on smaller trees, that's how I was able to get some smaller wedges,

eventually :|: I just reshaped them on the big bench grinder.
Starting off with smaller wedges would have been better :roll:

:lol: Funny, Jay.

Of course, we all know how to quarter cut those small diameter trees and minimize the conflict between wedge and chain, but it's far quicker/simpler to use the baby wedges.

[stig]

Burnham, do you really mean that using wedges on trees that small would be better/faster than using a long felling bar?

I've spend a large ( way too large actually, it's not fun work) part of my youth thinning trees like those for pulpwood.
Usually a stand of trees will have a common lean, maybe only a degree or two, but still enough to utilize when falling them. Start at the point they are leaning towards and work away from there.
I figure you can knock a conifer of up to 1½ cubic meter( can't do boardfeet, sorry) over with a felling bar if it stands straight, bigger if they lean a few degrees.
The added advantage of using the felling bar, is you have it on hand, whenever you hang a tree up.
Like Bermy said, using a splitlevel cut will help those without total control of the saw cutting into the bar.

[Burnham]

Stig, I expect in your hands the felling bar would work a sweet treat and be just right for that size wood.

I never have even met one in person :). It's not a tool with much history for use here in my part of the world...I expect because for most of the history of logging here the trees were far too large to use a felling bar on.

So I guess for me there are several questions regarding pros and cons vs. wedges.

Can you use one to hold a kerf open against the lean (I'm talking mild lean here) while you complete the back cut? Is it possible to shift a mild back leaner to commit to the face, as you would with a wedge? Can you stablize a side leaner during completion of the back cut?

Your proposition about a common lean to a stand is interesting...not something I have experienced...I have found that thinning requires me to put trees every which way to get them on the ground...differing thinning densities could play a big role in that difference we have experienced.

I completely agree with the advantage of having the peavy function on hand to handle hangups...that would be great.

[stig]

The felling bar I like, ( the type in the pic) is about 4 feet long and the "head" is about as wide as a small wedge. So it'll hold the kerf open against a moderate back lean.
I always keep a wedge and hammer by my gas/oil cannister to use if the tree proves to be too much for the bar to lever over.

I'll use the bar in small decidous trees, too. The good thing about it is you can get a tree to fall faster than with wedges, because you can keep pressure on it as it goes. that difference can make a big difference if you have to squeeze the trees down into narrow lays.

The common lean may be attributed to our prevailing winds being from the west, here. It is something that can be a great help on a clearcut, but being aware of it can help in thinning, too.

[Ed L]

Stig, that felling bar looks like it would be very usefull! I'm currently cutting quite a few EAB killed Ash trees, many are only 8" to 10" at the butt, that doesn't leave much room for a wedge.
I currently have the small Fiskars (sold by Husky) fellling bar, it's way to short to do much good in lifting a tree over.

I'll definately try to find one, do you know the manufacturer?

Ed

[Swe#kipp]

I know that Bacho/Sandvik used to make them !

[woodworkingboy]

Bacho...haven't heard that name in years. An old friend had a set of Bacho chisels of very good quality.

[Swe#kipp]

Sherrilltree should be able to get them for you I think, they sell the smaller ones !
http://gear.sherrilltree.com/iwwida.pvx?;search_submit?comp=SHE&cat=WORK

[stig]

The one in the picture is sold by Husqvarna over here, but Stihl has one just like it in their european catalogue.
They work great for dead ashtrees because those are not topheavy and therefore usually real easy to lever over.

[Ed L]

Sherrilltree should be able to get them for you I think, they sell the smaller ones !
http://gear.sherrilltree.com/iwwida.pvx?;search_submit?comp=SHE&cat=WORK


I did see those, I'll give them a call about longer ones.


The one in the picture is sold by Husqvarna over here, but Stihl has one just like it in their european catalogue.
They work great for dead ashtrees because those are not topheavy and therefore usually real easy to lever over.

Thanks stig!

Ed

[Husky D]

Because of the different styles of cutting we train the use of felling levers as standard practice here in the uk. As Burnham said the size of tree's and there dimensions he cuts there is no need for anything else but a wedge but for us in small diameter tree's the wedge (as much as I like them and use them frequently) doesn't have the required result and ends up against the hinge and can result in lift ing of the tree vertically (popping the hinge) and the lifting effect stopping. As for moderate back weighted tree's with a long lever i do split level cut in training but i prefer the danish cut which is basically boring out behind the hinge as you would for a heavy forward leaner allow for proper hidge setting then back cutting and pulling the saw out to leave one quarter of the felling cut remaining. You then put the lever in the kerf to stop the tree coming back and then undercut the last quarter fractionally lower to avoid the lever and then lift up to pop the grain vertically and tip the tree. You can vary the side to leave the remaining hold if you consider there to be side weight as well as back weight so the completed cut is done from the non lean side. This cut was especially useful in line thinnings when you pretty much wanted all the tree's the same way for production. If they get hung up and have no distinct way to roll what we teach is to bore the centre of the hinge out from the back leaving at least 10% either side this then allows you to pencil cut on an angle either of the hinges away to try to avoid trapping of the saw and then use the hook on the felling lever to roll in the required direction. If they still won't roll just do pencil cuts on the remaining hinge to allow the tree to settle on the stump and then pole or winch it backwards. Hope this makes sense as to our usage of the bar but probably just telling you all stuff you all ready know:|:
D.

[Burnham]

Excellent post, D.

[Swe#kipp]

Here is a link were they use the lever for felling and to roll down (trying) trees .
http://www.skogforsk.se/KunskapDirekt/Templates/WMPage____15350.aspx

[stig]

Hey Husky D, you must have pulled REALLY hard on the old felling bar to make that mark on the tree in your avatar:P

[pete mctree]

Good post Husky D - well explained

[Husky D]

Hey Husky D, you must have pulled REALLY hard on the old felling bar to make that mark on the tree in your avatar:P

LOL! I'd still be there now Stig if I used one on that! Had to resort to the good old steel wedge to "persuade" this one to behave along with several plastic and hi-lifts. It wasn't so much of a back lean but a slight kink in the trunk making it want to commit sideways more but i felt it would result in less damage to trunk and surroundings going uphill and got it there but it took about 1.5 hours from start to finish. Normally it should have been pulled by a winch but the only reason I cut it and a few others was that the contractor had pulled out and missed these. It produced just shy of 100' of timber and the first 26' weighed around 4.5 plus ton so held its diameter well. Not a threat to the PNW boys by a long shot but wouldn't mind a few more of these to cut!

Glad the previous post made sense always seems better in your head then when you type sometimes;)

[squisher]

Husky D in your avatar the undercut on that tree looks really small? Did you trim part of the butt off or something?

[Husky D]

Hi Squisher, No only trimmed the hinge off. Trend over here is to only cut in 20-25% for your face cut (in training circles anyway)but most people over here would do an open face rather than a humboldt. Any time i have experimented with that i have found the results better going in towards a third which seems to be recommended by dent and others from what i've read in books and internet (is that true to what you do?)

[sotc]

typically yes, 1/3rd usually gives you most hinge, and under mines enough weight to minimize wedge driving. especially on a back leaner

[stig]

That is an old discussion, the narrower facecut gives you more lever action when you wedge, the deeper face changes the balance of the tree.
Which to use is hard to say, in this case tradition ( Europe/ US) is what makes one use one or the other, I think.

Husky D, when I saw those wedge indentations on the end of your log, I knew you must have had a fun time trying to knock that one over:D

[CurSedVoyce]

I have a tendency to go too deep into a face cut on dead pine, especially dead cedar... And I also use tag lines a lot to direct opposite lean. So there are times I will cut deeper with a tag line. I think I should probably bore those instead to prevent barber chair. Any thoughts there Stig or Burn?

[stig]

In my opinion a borecut or gutted hinge can be made stronger than one which is not.
Reason being, the wood in the sides of the hinge is what really holds and directs the tree. If you doubt this, nip the sides out of a hinge on a leaner and see what happens ( keep an escape route ready!!).
By boring the middle of the hinge out, you can make the remaining hinge thicker wo. getting a barberchair, therefore the hinge is stronger.
Also the sidewood in hinges is sapwood which in all the species I work with is more elastic than heartwood, thus more bendable and makes a stronger hinge.

[Nails]

In my opinion a borecut or gutted hinge can be made stronger than one which is not.
Reason being, the wood in the sides of the hinge is what really holds and directs the tree. If you doubt this, nip the sides out of a hinge on a leaner and see what happens ( keep an escape route ready!!).
By boring the middle of the hinge out, you can make the remaining hinge thicker wo. getting a barberchair, therefore the hinge is stronger.
Also the sidewood in hinges is sapwood which in all the species I work with is more elastic than heartwood, thus more bendable and makes a stronger hinge.

I agree. The facebore also makes it nice for driving wedges on smaller trees. There is no hinge to stop the wedge, and you can put the wedges and the saw in the same backcut kerf.