The Fishpole Technique

[MasterBlaster]

This is how I use it on something that might bust up when loaded.

How about ya'll?

[CurSedVoyce]

Looks like it should work... Just as long as you have room to a roof or something to keep it from not working.... I like it actually. Makes sense to at least keep some segments from being lost to gravity vs rot to the load. Nice Boss. I will have to try it :)

[MasterBlaster]

It primarily has more to do with spreading out the shock load, so to speak. If you're lucky, a lot of times it WILL hold the limb together when it busts apart.

[sotc]

used that just a couple times, couple more times i shoulda

[Stumper]

Looks smart boss. Mostly when I think fishpole I'm thinking about setting a pull line through a crotch and tying it off on the trunk near the base-----different subject that your post. I do the captured segment thing occassionally too.

[MasterBlaster]

I could be completely wrong calling this the Fishpole Technique.

[CurSedVoyce]

Heck I thinks its a good name there boss. I guess some research would be in order to see if it has a diffy name... But it does fit :)

[MasterBlaster]

It was this thread (http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4544) at ArbTalk that got me thinking.

[stehansen]

Looks like it would work. Might have to think of a new name for it as this is what the fishing pole technique is from the art and science of practical rigging book. Perhaps a contest?

[arborworks1]

Sounds good I always picture the Arbormaster guys when I hear the fishing pole technique.

But I agree thats the only way to rig something that is questionably rotted. Especially with a high value target. I have used it a few times. NEver had a chance to test if it would hold a piece that breaks

[CurSedVoyce]

SO in the rigging book it is with pulleys not half hitches. I would think the half hitches would simplify it and the technique would still carry the same name but as pulleyless...

[MasterBlaster]

The "book" always complicates things,

[stehansen]

I think Butch's deal looks a lot more practical and useful than putting a bunch of pulley's along a limb.

[CurSedVoyce]

HAHAHA Maybe Gerry might name it in his next book LOL ;)

[CurSedVoyce]

I agree Steve... I mean why set up all the pulleys when half hitches should do the job of holding each segment and take the load to each segment... Simplify semper fi is what I always say to Rob. My agreement statement when he finds a more simple way to uncomplicate what I complicate .. LOL

[arborworks1]

I think in the book they were taking the piece down in sections though. Butch's illustration is perfect for whole limbs.

[Hobby Climber]

I've used this set up a few times a in the past and recently on some of our E.A.B. infested ash trees so when the limbs break apart during rigging, they don't go to far.

A bit of a pita IMO but it does work!

HC

[MasterBlaster]

Yea, it's a pee-tah!

[CurSedVoyce]

Well a piece of dead limb breaking through roof would be a PITA more so I would think.. besides... I get paid hourly for the rope work..... so if it saves some damage.. You bet!

[arborworks1]

Its good to have in the bag,

4 sure

[Wagnaw]

MB's technique and the text book "fishing pole technique" are WAY different.

[stehansen]

I think in the book they were taking the piece down in sections though. Butch's illustration is perfect for whole limbs.

Exactly.

[Skwerl]

This is yet another example of why I carry a couple loop runners on speedline carabiners. On that limb I would use the loop runners instead of half hitches or pulleys, then just clip them onto the lowering line. It doesn't keep the limb together so much, but it would catch the big pieces and keep them clipped to the lowering line.

Or, if you were piecing the limb down, they would replace the pulleys (but much faster and easier to set and retrieve).

[CurSedVoyce]

I would try to possibly speed the process up by taking Butches technique and omitting the half hitches and incorporating loop runners. Possibly hitching the biners on each loop runner for binding, but probably not needing to unless there is a limiting space/height issue to a target.

[CurSedVoyce]

Ya beat me Brian. LMAO

[pantheraba]

MB's technique and the text book "fishing pole technique" are WAY different.

Roger that, Wagnaw and Arborworks...MB's is to contain pieces that could break loose from a limb that might tend towards comminution when it is subjected to stress.

The fishpole technique from the ASPR book (with the pulleys) is to disperse the forces involved when cutting the end off a limb but where you need more holding power than just one block over the target area can give you...the multiple pulleys share the load.

[CurSedVoyce]

Ok must have new name Butch.. LOL hmmmmmm
Fish Stringer????

[MasterBlaster]

Butch's illustration is perfect for whole limbs.


Yes, it's meant for entire limbs.

[stehansen]

Lousiana pole technique, or Cajun stringer technique

[CurSedVoyce]

Now thats a personal touch ;)
Especially the Louisiana Pole HAHAHA

[MasterBlaster]

Ya'll know I was born in Texas, eh.

[CurSedVoyce]

But did ya think of it in TX or LA???? hmmmm Decisions decisions .....

[MasterBlaster]

I didn't invent it, somebody showed me.

[Treeslayer]

This is how I use it on something that might bust up when loaded.

How about ya'll?

try viagra, then you won't have to tie it up.
:lol:

[stehansen]

The Texas limb wrap. Or the Lone Star limb wrap.

[arborworks1]

I like lone star limb wrap:D Throw a lone star on it and hurry Its dinner time!

[CurSedVoyce]

God your good Steve..... I can't think that quick. Cool names

[Hobby Climber]

Texas Hold-em ...nah!

:P

[gf beranek]

The same technique that Butch illustrated was used on some of the dead limbs we took out of the Tree House. Brian Noyes and Mark Chisholm marled a 3/8" yellow tenex line about 20 feet long around the limbs a dozen or so times.

Much to my surprise not a single limb broke. I was kind of hoping one would just to see how it would work. I've used marls to rig out multiple sets of limbs. That was sometime before I started using snap-on gear (loop runners)

Brian's idea with the loop runners would work better on the dead limbs, because in order for marl to hold anything it has to stay loaded with the weight of the object on the side of the bite.

Did I say that right? Well, anyway, I found that out the hard way rigging out the limbs with the marls. And it was the very reason I started using snap-on gear.

[PCTREE]

The guy that taught me to climb showed me this trick. Ive used it occasionly. I have had a REAL punky piece break up with this method. Didnt work out too good as the half hitches just "turn and release" if you dont have at least 2 on same piece. Luckily for me I had told the customer no garantee and the limb did swing back away from house before raining down. Basically its one more little trick to use but not failsafe.

Does it ever occure to you how ironic it is that just when you have learned ALL the tricks its time to die.......:|:

Ray of light:lol:

[MasterBlaster]

Yea, there isn't a guarantee it'll hold every time. It'll usually hold good enough to swing away and hopefully miss the target, but I hate relying on "hope."

[Treeslayer]

Brian's idea with the loop runners would work better on the dead limbs, because in order for marl to hold anything it has to stay loaded with the weight of the object on the side of the bite.

Did I say that right? .

"Bight".
now that I have proven my great intellect, I shall slink back into Gerry's shadow.

:|:

[rbtree]

I think Butch's deal looks a lot more practical and useful than putting a bunch of pulley's along a limb.

As was noted, the two are different procedures. One is to get the last block out at the cut, and adds blocks as needed as back-up in case the branch breaks. The cut is made past the farthest out block.

Butch's method is very useful for limbs, wood of suspect strength. However, marls must be used, not half hitches. If anything breaks, a half hitch will roll out, while a marl holds.

This also works well for vertical loads, be it in tree rigging or crane work. It allows the load to hang straight down by being tied way high, and is best to marl it till you're into bigger wood.

[Gord]

Like Jerry says, if marls are used instead of half-hitches they won't 'roll out'.

Oh I just saw you there rb :)

[MasterBlaster]

Cool, I've been schooled. Marls instead of half-hitchs - only I'm a tad confused exactly what the difference is.

[stehansen]

I think most of the time we do a Marl but we think it's a half hitch.

[Stumper]

+1 on Brian's slings and 'biners. -Don't you love it when "quick and dirty" is also BETTER?

[rbtree]

Cool, I've been schooled. Marls instead of half-hitchs - only I'm a tad confused exactly what the difference is.

Try tying off a small piece of wood....then remove the wood. a marl leaves an overhand knot in the rope, a half hitch nothing....

[gf beranek]

Because of their subtle difference's and similarities alike marls and hitches are often confused. The terminology is the main culprit here. Because in different geographic regions people call marls "hitches" or half hitches.

Marls by them selves can only hold in one direction and will roll out the other way.

The embeded picture shows how I used marls for taking out multiple sets of limbs in the past. The lowest limb is fixed with a clove hitch. All the rest above it are marled.

In the event one of those marled limbs hung up on the way down and turned over the marl would roll out. Also if one of the marled limbs was just a stub of deadwood the weight in the line below it would flip the stub upside down and the marl would roll out again. Likewise a very light limb.

If half hitches were used instead the work would stay captured either way. But very timely to tie and untie. The virtue of the marl as illustrated here is it's much faster to tie and very quick to free all the limbs once their on the ground. Because once the line is slack the limbs fall right out. That's the risk of the method, and the reason I went to snap on gear.

[MasterBlaster]

Try tying off a small piece of wood....then remove the wood. a marl leaves an overhand knot in the rope, a half hitch nothing....

So a marl = overhand knot? I mean, from your statement, how can it not be otherwise?

[brendonv]

From google pics, it seems like a half hitch is a "overhand". The marl is what I usually put before a bowline.

[gf beranek]

Butch, the overhand and half hitch are tied the same. Brendon, that be a marl all right. Although some people precede with a clove,, when negative blocking.

[Skwerl]

I dislike the clove because it rolls out, it's worthless without a stopper knot. Why tie two separate knots to do the job of one?

Of course I'm biased on the matter. I was talked into using a clove hitch one time about 20 years ago. The chunk rolled out and bounced off the edge of the roof, costing me a bit of money that I didn't have. I immediately decided that I'd never use it again and I haven't.

[MasterBlaster]

Butch, the overhand and half hitch are tied the same.

Not the way I tie it. I must be doing something wrong?


No clove hitch ever, here. Running bowline every time.

[gf beranek]

The clove is made with two marls. So it's not surprising it rolls out if the end is not fixed well enough. I've had it happen too.

Just tying the end off using a single loose half hitch is not good enough. When the load (a heavy one) lays into the line you can watch the works untie itself. Oops!

Even using two half hitches to secure the end the clove will only grab with one marl when the load first lays into it. A potential oops there.

The best fix, I found, is to tie the end off to the main with a bowline finish. It's very secure and it makes the clove grab the load evenly by both marls.

I know a lot of people don't use the clove for it's tendency to roll out. But once set correctly it grabs very well, and is less damaging to a line than a bowline in hard pulls.

[Skwerl]

But if you have to finish it off with a bowline then why bother tying it in the first place? I'll tie a running bowline and I'll take a second wrap around the log before tying if I need to reduce the load on the knot. Why tie two knots? We constantly strive to make every movement more efficient. Tying two separate knots and then waiting while the groundie unties two separate knots is not efficient.

You know what they say, "If you can't tie knots then tie lots". ;)

[MasterBlaster]

If I think I'm gonna strain the bowline, I'll slap a half hitch in front of it, too.

[gf beranek]

Brian, it's a bowline finish to trap the bitter end and takes the same amount, or less time to tie as two half hitches. When tying off the end with half hitches the side of the clove the hitches are tied on doesn't come tight until the main line pulls all the slack out.

But since you only used the knot one time and it failed then you probably can't visualize how the clove grabs differently when the end is tied off the two different ways.

I never broke a rope in a tree doing rigging work, but on the ground it's a different thing. Pulling logs and stumps I've broke a lot. And watched and learned why they break. And too how the knots grab and hold before they fail.

[sotc]

i learned to use the clove with 2 halfs. i watched those 2 half hitches hold the knot together so many times that i started using the cow hitch or timber hitch instead. mostly loopies and whoopie slings now

[lumberjack]

Pics from a few years back:

Marl:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/IMG_8168.jpg

Half hitch:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/IMG_8167-1.jpg

[TheTreeSpyder]

If you slip a half hitch preceding off the end of the spar, it melts to nothing. But, if you slip a marl precedant off the ENd of a spar, it is an overhand. There is more deformity to line with marl, so i suspect it weaker(but more secure). i've used slings and kraps for catching pieces of puzzle if it comes apart, but then lock is the wieght of each piece, but in using marls or halfs the lock is the wieght below the piece and the piece i think.

[lumberjack]

...Marls by them selves can only hold in one direction and will roll out the other way...

In the event one of those marled limbs hung up on the way down and turned over the marl would roll out...

Not 100% but I'm nearly positive you're talking about a half hitch. If you roll a marl over, you're left with a marl. A half hitch rotated=free line w/o a hitch in the getup.

Also marl's are more time consuming to untie compared to a half hitch.

[Mr. Sir]

So it appears a marl is an overhand knot, while a half-hitch is simply a bight with half a twist. Yes?

[lumberjack]

Yep.

[Mr. Sir]

I sometimes put a half hitch in front of a running bowline on a big piece or when blocking down a spar, but I always called it a marl. :?

When I rig multiple limbs, I use overhand knots for extra security if there's a chance they'll get hung up on the way down. I had a half-hitch slide off the end of a limb once when it bounced off a small nub on the trunk. :O

[MasterBlaster]

I use overhand knots for that, also.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ysychgVYs2g&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ysychgVYs2g&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[gf beranek]

Lost in terminology again!

[arborworks1]

Nice group, Butch. Are your groundies running a porty or just wrapping the tree?

[MasterBlaster]

I'm pretty sure they were using a porty.

[TC3]

I saw this technique used a few weeks ago on a dead oak limb over a roof with no TIP directly over. What made it great for the situation is that the limb was small-ish, but oak is damned heavy & would be a javelin through a roof, even in smaller pieces.

[gf beranek]

Not 100% but I'm nearly positive you're talking about a half hitch. If you roll a marl over, you're left with a marl. A half hitch rotated=free line w/o a hitch in the getup.

Also marl's are more time consuming to untie compared to a half hitch.


We're reversing the names, while at the same time talking about the same knots. No one is really wrong. It's one of the most common misunderstandings in the trade. "What's the name of this knot?" You will not get the same answer from everyone. And even the books on knots contradict each other on that. Least Ashley set it out straight from the beginning in his book on Knots that, names are not accurate descriptors and often are the cause more confusion and debates than they're worth, when it comes to talking about knots.

I do not disagree with any of the points anybody has made about the function and application of these knots.

[DMc]

This is why I have been pushing for so long to get internationally recognized latin names for knots! :lol:

Dave

[TheTreeSpyder]

Actually, to confuse it more, if you take that overhand that is a marl when force runs thru both ends, and curl one end under to form an eye around the other,a nd you pull the free end and it holds, it is called a half hitch also(and instead of force running thru it, has force only running to it like a Hitch proper). Keep spiralling that leg you bent uder around, and ya have a Timber Hitch. Half Hitch ppreceding gives a Killick. The main differance is that the Timber should be pulled perpendicualr to the spar it is mounted on, but is leveraged if pulled pairallell/inline with the spar. The Half Hitch preceding changes that error with the Killick (and gives dble. grab too), the mechanics are thus more proper, and the spar can be pulled straighter too.

Raising the Half Hitch on a load, farther away from the pulley under it does not decrease loading (CG of load is still same distance from pulley), but may decrease shock absorbtion(more line); that in turn could 'increase' loading (by not decreasing the shock with as much elastic absorbtion).

The names are just handles to pass the ideas around by, the real deal is in the mechanics and how to make it werk fer ya, and knot against ye.

[DMc]

For some reason, I always feel better after reading one of Ken's posts. Things just seem so much clearer, don't you all think?

But don't you think instead of wasting our time discussing something that is confusingly vague as a "constrictor" it would be much more clear to simply say:

Contineo caryophyllum 'Constrictor' --Clove hitch 'constrictor'

This knot would be in the kingdom of Funisae, family Nodusacea.

Now, doesn't that make everything perfectly clear? :?::O

Dave

[gf beranek]

I think part of Ken is rubbing off on you, Dave.

[stehansen]

I don't know if this is any better than Carl's picture but here is one (once again) from the rigging book. Brian the clove hitch with two half hitches is IMO very secure. It's only advantage over the running bowline that I can see is it doesn't put any severe bends on the rope. I use it when pulling a tree over.