More Hazard Tree Felling Pics

[Burnham]

We're getting pretty close to completion of the last contract for this operating season, and I thought I'd put up a few more pictures just for the Treehouse's entertainment.

Nothing really special here, just some more felling work that I caught off and on.

This first one stood right on the break from a flat bench to a +100% slope. The face had to be head high so the backcut could go in at ground level. Heavy headlean to the road below, 60 inch dbh I'd guess...Dan's cutting with a 42 inch bar on his 660 here.

[Skwerl]

So how much is his bonus if he can spear it into the road? :lol:

[Burnham]

So how much is his bonus if he can spear it into the road? :lol:

:lol: He gets my caulk boot across his backside...and then I have to do some real work. Placing coldpatch this time of year is hard labor :whine:!

Check this batch out.

[Burnham]

One more group. It's amazing to me how hard it is to get decent pictures down deep in the woods. Not to say these are good, just better than most I manage to take :D.

[Stumper]

Burnham, What is the official stance on sawing with only one hand on the saw? I'm assuming that you don't interfere with the contractors-I 'm really sjust curious about FS instruction policy.

[Burnham]

Two hands, Justin. Official stance for FS trained/certified sawyers.

[Skwerl]

Justin, I think that was photoshopped. ;)
Real fellers always have both hands on the saw at all times.

[Swe#kipp]

A big thanks for the pictures, I really enjoy watching this kind pics !!!'

//Kipp

[Newfie]

I wasn't worried about 2 hands on the saw. It looked like he was taking a nap.

[CurSedVoyce]

Awesome photos again B. Ouch on the cold patch.
What do they do about the tree in the river? Do they consider that habitat once it is there? I know we have some lakes and streams here they fell right into for fish habitat etc.

[Burnham]

You got it...fish habitat. In fact, the District fish biologist had a selfloader coming along behind us and picked up about 10 loads of logs to stockpile for future in-stream placement.

[CurSedVoyce]

Excellent... I really wondered about that up there. So long as it does not completely obstruct the stream or river I would imagine? Nice that they stock pile them also.

[Reddog]

Nice pictures.:)

[Burnham]

Stephen, there is no way the winter flows on the Clackamas River will let that tree stay put across the channel like that...it'll end up as part of some log jam downstream. Placed just like Mother Nature intended :D.

[CurSedVoyce]

I was wondering about that as you have fast flow like we do in the Merced river. SO log jams as natural type occurrence is acceptable.. cool. Sometimes they interfere here too much with jams IMHO. Thanks B.
I am often hired to clear creek beds and water edges and try and educate the homeowners and land management on habitat. I try to leave as much as possible thereof in the flow zone. With consideration to bridges and culverts etc.

[stehansen]

How about in the forest Burnham, do they let the logs lay, or are they harvested?

[Gord]

Burnham is there a certification required to be a faller on these contracts?

Also (not being critical, just asking) is it not usual practice for these guys to leave the stump once the tree is committed? Or is it not very common to drop your saw and step back?

[thattreeguy]

nasty road damage burnham..nice pics

[Jamin Mayer]

I love it when falling trees destroy pavement. :D

[MasterBlaster]

Odd thing to love.

[Jamin Mayer]

There is just something thrilling about smashing something with wood.:P

[woodworkingboy]

Interesting wedge pounder holder that Dave has on his belt. I've gotten into the habit of sawing with one hand while leaning around the tree to see how the cut is progressing on the far side. Me thinks that maybe it's a bad habit. :(

[gf beranek]

Shaving that old growth fir bark off you have to hold you breath or choke while doing it. It's not so bad when the air is moving but when it's still I've have to walk away for the tree to get some fresh air.

That must be county road, I'm assumming.

[Knotahippie]

Good pics, Burnham.

[sotc]

most excellent shots burnham, love that nice first face cut!

[cory]

Shaving that old growth fir bark off you have to hold you breath or choke while doing it. It's not so bad when the air is moving but when it's still I've have to walk away for the tree to get some fresh air.

Yeah that is nasty, must clog up the saw's filter alot sooner too than when no bark shaving is required.

Speaking of required, since the shaving is a bit of a job, what about only doing it at the area at either end of the hinge, to save work and dust but still be able to see the hinge area clearly, unobscured by deep bark furrows?

[cory]

There is just something thrilling about smashing something with wood.:P

One time, at Band Camp, uh...no, wait. One time I was taking down a large silver maple over a cement slab that had served as the floor of a garage. It was going to be demoed so I did what I could to jump start the process. The slab held up for a couple of direct hits from about 45' up of 2 foot chunks, but after that it got pulverized. Fun.

[woodworkingboy]

Prefer to use a bush knife to shave away bark. One with a heavy back works well. Sometimes will work around a big tree to remove bark containing grit, just to save wear on a long chain. An ol' timer showed me that. Bush knife skills rock.

[Burnham]

Long holiday weekend for me, sorry to be slow on the replies, friends.


How about in the forest Burnham, do they let the logs lay, or are they harvested?

This river corridor is designated in the Forest Management Plan as Late Successional Reserve...no harvest activities. Except for the fact that these trees were identified as imminent hazards to the roadway, they'd never have been felled. They will be available for firewood permits, up to 100 feet from the road. So alot will just be left as down woody material, which is a valuable component of natural forest stands.


Burnham is there a certification required to be a faller on these contracts? Also (not being critical, just asking) is it not usual practice for these guys to leave the stump once the tree is committed? Or is it not very common to drop your saw and step back?

No, to your first question. To the best of my knowlege, there does not exist a certification program for private industry sawyers in the US. The FS certification applies to FS employees only.

As a contract administrator, I do have the authority to require the contractor to replace any of his employees who perform their job in a blatently unsafe manner, that is, in ways that have the immediate potential to injure or kill themselves or others.

Yes, to your second question. Leaving the stump is normal practice, though not dropping your saw...take it with you. Most fallers like to do a bit of both retreating, but also keeping the tree top in view, looking for any material thrown back their way in case dodging is required. Dan gets out of there pretty well most of the time...and he's had to jump out of the way of broken tops, limbs, or collapsing rotten snags more than a few times on this job.


Shaving that old growth fir bark off you have to hold you breath or choke while doing it. It's not so bad when the air is moving but when it's still I've have to walk away for the tree to get some fresh air.

That must be county road, I'm assumming.

Yeah, Jer...I don't shave near so much as Danny does, and I'm much more likely to cut the bark down just at the hingewood with my axe.

That's a FS system road, not county. We have some pretty high construction/maintenence level roads on the Mt. Hood NF.


Yeah that is nasty, must clog up the saw's filter alot sooner too than when no bark shaving is required.

Speaking of required, since the shaving is a bit of a job, what about only doing it at the area at either end of the hinge, to save work and dust but still be able to see the hinge area clearly, unobscured by deep bark furrows?

See my answer to Jerry, Cory. I'm with you on that.

[stehansen]

Long holiday weekend for me, sorry to be slow on the replies, friends.



This river corridor is designated in the Forest Management plan as Late Successional Reserve...no harvest activities. Except for the fact that these trees were identified as imminent hazards to the roadway, they'd never have been felled. They will be available for firewood permits, up to 100 feet from the road. So alot will just be left as down woody material, which is a valuable component of natural forest stands.

So at the risk of being an environmental wacko here, would logging eventually deplete the soil?

[pantheraba]

Those are all some wonderful pictures, Burnham...thanks mucho for taking the time to share it all.

[Burnham]

So at the risk of being an environmental wacko here, would logging eventually deplete the soil?

Well...not under any logical scientific analysis I have ever seen with the possible exception of mass soil loss caused by landslide events, which have been associated with roadbuilding and clearcutting on unstable soil types and slopes.

The purpose of the designation as LSR (late successional reserve) is to attempt to maintain corridors of oldgrowth habitat so the species that are dependent on that habitat type can conceivably move from one block of oldgrowth habitat to another, to allow maintenance of genetic diversity and dispersal of individuals into habitat that has additional capacity to support them.

On the Mt. Hood NF, contrary to what you might have been lead to understand, timber harvesting has occured on less than 50 percent of the over 1,250,000 acres that make up that beautiful chunk of public land...not the +99 percent that some would have you believe.

But many blocks of mature and oldgrowth habitat are seperated by younger plantations, inhibiting the species movement I described above. So the LSR system was established. Sort of like travelways between areas of oldgrowth habitat. We try to maintain those travelways, and move them towards complete continuity by active management, as best we can.

Except I came along and whacked some BIG old trees for the sake of safety on the road system :). Oh, well...best laid plans and all that :D.

[pantheraba]

[QUOTE=Burnham;285190]The purpose of the designation as LSR (late successional reserve) is to attempt to maintain corridors of oldgrowth habitat so the species that are dependent on that habitat type can conceivably move from one block of oldgrowth habitat to another, to allow maintenance of genetic diversity and dispersal of individuals into habitat that has additional capacity to support them.
..................But many blocks of mature and oldgrowth habitat are seperated by younger plantations, inhibiting the species movement I described above. So the LSR system was established. Sort of like travelways between areas of oldgrowth habitat. We try to maintain those travelways, and move them towards complete continuity by active management, as best we can./QUOTE]

That concept makes all the sense in the world but I have never heard it stated...I have not studied about actively managing forests. There must be some interesting and on-going studies to determine how successfully species survival and movement is occurring. Someone has to have a "grand plan" for it all and be doing some serious oversight to try to maintain and enhance such huge and diverse tracts of our earth. It seems to me to be a noble calling to be a part of such a project...glad you are working in it.

[Knotahippie]

Well...not under any logical scientific analysis I have ever seen with the possible exception of mass soil loss caused by landslide events, which have been associated with roadbuilding and clearcutting on unstable soil types and slopes.

Cool info. Burnham,

I'm no soil expert and I'm not so sure of the sientificness of some dirt info. I've heard :D. I do like compost and wood chips though and seen some real positive effects of O layer of soil for plants and for beneficial soil organisms.
You ever heard of Malcom Beck?

I heard a couple things about dirt recently that got me interested.

It's been a while, years ago I read something about carbon and nutrient depletion from OVER logging. I heard that was a major problem on some shallow soil, tropical islands. Maybe not so much with deeper soils in PNW?

Somewhere else I read about one of the many benefits of decomposing, lignified conifer wood as a soil granulator (humic and fulvic acids etc...) to increase water infiltration. I have always wondered, when a big tree falls in the woods on it's own, how is the soil decompacted?

I heard a little about how dirt is here in the city too and bare dirt doesn't sound so good. It gets a tough layer on top, it rains and then the dirt and water run into the drain costing alot of $.

Just some stuff I read.


On the Mt. Hood NF, contrary to what you might have been lead to understand, timber harvesting has occured on less than 50 percent of the over 1,250,000 acres that make up that beautiful chunk of public land...not the +99 percent that some would have you believe.

There's more than 50% of the original forest left at Hood? or 50% hasn't been logged? I remember when those folks were protesting up there in 99'-00'? they had some pretty wild a$$ figures.

Iv'e heard alot of random info. over the years and it's good to hear from a pro like you.

As for cuttin' those big trees over the road... I'm all for it, saftey first;).

Thanks again for the post and pics Burnham, high quality.8)

[stehansen]

Thanks Burnham. Thanks for explaining LSR too, I would have never figured that one out. I know that dead trees, standing or downed are good habitat.

[sotc]

knotahippie, sounds like a little truth being mixed into fables for someones agenda to me. .02

[CurSedVoyce]

And people laugh when I tell them we are actually paid to make quail piles and such. We also look for signs like animal dens etc and steer clear of them. ie: left some downed and dead brush with what appeared to be a fox hole under it. Showed home owner and she was impressed we noticed it. That was last year. This year a mother fox and kit were spotted there :)
Good to know that this a procedure in forestry that is being used there B. I had never heard of the actual name and action of this. You wouldn't happen to have a site post where we could get the document issued for further reference and education would you? I would really like to show it to my guys and customers that we work for if you wouldn't mind :D

[CurSedVoyce]

Ummm Never Mind I found it... WOW quite a read.
THAT my friend IS A BOOK!
Well ok then.. I will just browse through it and highlight some of what it all is about and give the interested parties the link and they can read more :)
This is definitely going to take some time... or days ... or weeks..................
Link for anyone else is I think...
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/willamette/manage/midwillamette_lsr/lsr_assm.pdf

[woodworkingboy]

I like the title, "Hazard tree removal specialist". It puts a lot of experience and skills into one succinct little package, for folks to consider if they will...and I don't think very many want to complain about it, unlike some other activities within the field of logging.

Great thread, Burnham!

[Burnham]

Cool info. Burnham....

I have always wondered, when a big tree falls in the woods on it's own, how is the soil decompacted?

There's more than 50% of the original forest left at Hood? or 50% hasn't been logged? I remember when those folks were protesting up there in 99'-00'? they had some pretty wild a$$ figures.

Iv'e heard alot of random info. over the years and it's good to hear from a pro like you.

As for cuttin' those big trees over the road... I'm all for it, saftey first;).

Thanks again for the post and pics Burnham, high quality.8)

I can only give you my take on your first question...it would be uncommon for a naturally falling tree to hit hard over any significant proportion of it's length. The ground isn't smooth or flat and there are always obstructions like other fallen trees on the ground and standing trees to strike that would mitigate against a hard, soil compresssing strike. The other factor is the huge number of organisms in a natural stand that are active in the soil...burrowing, foraging, all that sort of thing. So natural processes decompact soil at a furious pace, better than we could achieve with all our technology we wield in the 'burbs and urban environments. The key is having a sufficiently intact cohort of this type of organisms to do the deed. It's there where I work, and usually not where most of you folks do.

As to your second question...for my answer to click for you, I'd guess you are going to have to re-construct your vision of what a completely "original forest", as you put it, looked like before European emmigrants came to this part of the continent.

There never was, ever, an uninterrupted forest of oldgrowth covering the +1,250,000 acres that today are designated the Mt. Hood National Forest. For example, not all of that ground could support a stand of trees because it was either alpine ecotype, talus slopes, wet meadows, bodies of water, etc.

Natural disturbances have always occured, taking areas of mature forest back to open ground...things like lightning-caused fires, floods, mass land movements, volcanic eruptions. Another thing that happened to modify forested acres actually was human management in the pre-history era...native peoples actively used fire to create openings to improve hunting conditions and habitat for preferred food species like huckleberries...hundreds of thousands of acres on the eastern side of this Forest were treated that way from the time shortly after the glaciers retreated some 15,000 years ago, when those people first got here from east Asia...or wherever.

Another interesting factor is the length of time the current forest composition has existed here. Core samples from natural lakes in the region have shown that the current species mix of Douglas fir, western redcedar, hemlock, noble fir, alder, and maple, etc. has only been so for about 6,000 years. Those native peoples where burning a completely different mix of tree species back when they started. Long term climate change is generally thought to be the reason for the shift in predominant species making up the forests of this region over that time frame.

Last, what is the definition of "oldgrowth"? There is currently a move here in Oregon to legally define oldgrowth as anything over 80 years. Now I can't say I know when a forest is old enough to be called oldgrowth, but I know for certain that 80 year old Douglas firs are not even close to maturity, let alone ancient.

Ok, so back to your question. Since the late 1920's when harvests first started on the Mt. Hood NF, we have cut less than 50% of the economically viable to harvest acres. That is quite a bit less that 50% of the total. My educated guess would put it at about 35-40%.

We have not harvested much of anything except by commercial thinnings of managed stands since the early 2000's. Stands people like me planted, released, and pre-commercially thinned back 35 to 50 years ago.

[sotc]

pleasing to read

[Knotahippie]

Good stuff.

That's a good chunk to chew on...

I'll be workin' on it for a while.

Thanks again, Burnham.

[Knotahippie]

Tried to DL that PDF last night, couldn't do it?

Somethin's up, looks like a good read though.

[Knotahippie]

Think I got it now:D

[Burnham]

One more bump from the Archives...I really like the first set of pics on this thread...some of the best I've taken, I think.

[stig]

Keep bumping them, Burnham.
Those are good reads!

[CurSedVoyce]

I was also reading the Dent cert thread last night...Birthplace on the f#@king internet expert :lol: I love these old threads :)

[Burnham]

Thanks, Stig...and Stephen.

[Burnham]

I might bump those couple of Dent training threads sometime.

[Underwor]

Knotahipppie, is Malcolm related to Dwayne Beck. Dwayne manages Dakota Lakes Research Farm at Pierre, SD. It is a demonstration site for no-till ag, aimed at building up the soil and water conservation on dryland sites. Gets fantastic yeilds on dryland corn, with root penetration that is unbelievable, about 20' in nightcrawler tunnels, as I remember. the secret is the rotation to eliminate disease and insect problems, while building OM. If you are ever passing through, I think you would enjoy the stop.

[sotc]

Careful, you may re start the WWBD? phase

[sotc]

One of the pretties pictures on the forum

http://gypoclimber.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11922&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1227731209

[stig]

Only if the 1½" gap on the far side was intended!

[Burnham]

WWBD?...that was a fun thing going in it's time :lol:.

That really is a pretty face isn't it, especially knowing how awfully awkward the working position was, and that Danny was double cutting with a 660/42 inch bar. That was a massive tree.

[Skwerl]

Was he trying to pull it to the right ever so slightly?

[bill22]

At the risk of being laughed at what is WWBD?

[Skwerl]

At the risk of being laughed at what is WWBD?

What
Would
Burnham
Do?
:D

[Burnham]

Was he trying to pull it to the right ever so slightly?

Naw, Brian...he was just thankful it came out as close to perfect as it did. On a tree that size, you'd have to be far less subtle than that in manipulating the face to get any action.

[sotc]

I like a little gap like that, wee bit more forgiving.

[sotc]

Stig's face cuts are so deep in the ground he just thinks they look better, he would get his hair dirty trying to check:P

[Burnham]

I think Brian was noting that the gap is a wee bit taller on the right side than the left.

[sawinredneck]

At the risk of being laughed at what is WWBD?


What
Would
Burnham
Do?
:D


It's an old running joke Bill, paying homage to greatness of Burnhams prowess:P

[Skwerl]

There must be something to it, even D. Douglas Dent himself said that Burnham was the f**king internet expert! :lol:

[Knotahippie]

Knotahipppie, is Malcolm related to Dwayne Beck. Dwayne manages Dakota Lakes Research Farm at Pierre, SD. It is a demonstration site for no-till ag, aimed at building up the soil and water conservation on dryland sites. Gets fantastic yeilds on dryland corn, with root penetration that is unbelievable, about 20' in nightcrawler tunnels, as I remember. the secret is the rotation to eliminate disease and insect problems, while building OM. If you are ever passing through, I think you would enjoy the stop.

I'm not sure, Bob.

Maybe - The presentation that Malcom gave was very similar to much of the

info on the Dakota Lakes Research Farm (http://www.dakotalakes.com/) site.

They grow some badass corn in TX, too!

If I'm in the area, I'll make it a point to check those folks out.

Thanks for the heads-up.

[flushcut]

One of the pretties pictures on the forum

http://gypoclimber.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11922&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1227731209
You got that right!