95" DBH+084+60" bar=KABOOM

[Burnham]

The largest hazard tree we've removed this season went down this morning. Stone dead oldgrowth Douglas fir, 175 feet tall, about 75 feet from the main through route on the west side of the Mt. Hood NF.

I identified the tree last week and then made arrangements to do a temporary transfer of property of my FS 084 with the Cannon 60 inch bar to the contractor for felling this one tree. He accepts responsibility for the saw and we get the job done safe. Good deal for both parties.

Pictures, taken on a drizzly day.

[Mr. Sir]

Nice!!! Kaboom indeed! :O

[darkstar]

Uber rad photos .
WOW
Was it leaning toward the road ?

[NeTree]

Why didn't you try some Nutri-Ject and support cables?


:D

[Skwerl]

Cool shots!
So he only used it for the notch and then used his own saw for the back cut? :? Heck of a big tree, way bigger than anything I've ever cut. I guess those big saws with big bars can be rather unweildy if you're not used to running them often.

[darkstar]

How long did it take to fell it .
Just the cutting bits and what not.
It looks like you didnt use wedges?
So im guessing it was leaning away from road.
Why did it have to come down then ? To avoid smashing into other live trees ?
Wish i could have been there.KA BA BOOM BOOM

[lumberjack]

Stig woulda had that down with a 24" bar on a 441.

Nice job B man.

[squisher]

Wicked Burnham, did you guys buck the log up at all, to see if it sounds out. Will anything be done with it?

[Burnham]

Cool shots!
So he only used it for the notch and then used his own saw for the back cut? :? Heck of a big tree, way bigger than anything I've ever cut. I guess those big saws with big bars can be rather unweildy if you're not used to running them often.

Brian, with a bar that long, you REALLY have to be careful about throwing the chain any time you throttle it with the bar held horizontally...the weight of the bar causes quite a droop from the power head to the tip. So you start a kerf with a smaller saw and then insert the long bar to proceed. Look again, you'll see that he has the 084 in the back cut in the next photo.



How long did it take to fell it .
Just the cutting bits and what not.
It looks like you didnt use wedges?
So im guessing it was leaning away from road.
Why did it have to come down then ? To avoid smashing into other live trees ?
Wish i could have been there.KA BA BOOM BOOM

It was leaning towards the road, and way heavily, too. That was the only place it was going to go. We had a 220 excavator on the road to remove the portion that hit the pavement...flaggers for traffic control, the whole 9 yards.

Took 15 minutes after he trimmed away about 8 inches of bark all around.

[Burnham]

Wicked Burnham, did you guys buck the log up at all, to see if it sounds out. Will anything be done with it?

No bucking needed, it broke in chunks the excavator could handle...might have been some sound wood in the middle, but the upper 75 feet was punk. You can see the size of the cavity and rot on the butt...not much there. Well, I guess it's relative...there was about 1 foot on the thin part of the rind and 3 feet on the thick side of it.

[squisher]

Yah the butt looks crappy just was wondering is all. Looks like alot of fun to be had down in your neck of the woods.

[woodworkingboy]

Great pics for the archives, Burnham.

Big saws aren't so unwieldy once you find big trees that you can sink them into. Moving them around the shed is the hassle.

[MasterBlaster]

Dang Burnham, you get to have all the fun!

[GASoline71]

Nice Burnham!

She was a rotten to the core!

Gary

[Burnham]

Dang Burnham, you get to have all the fun!

It was a lot of fun, Butch. Danny asked me to stay close and give him advice...he'd never run a saw of this order, and the tree was at least a couple of feet bigger than anything he'd felled before. So I got to have a strong young man run the saw, all I did was tell him how I'd handle it...he did the heavy work-I got be be up close and involved, camera in hand. It was really fun.

[woodworkingboy]

Burnham, you're da man! (always wanted to say that)

[stehansen]

Awesome pictures Burnham.

[Bodean]

Fantastic Pictures, Burnham!


You have a rad job there.

[sotc]

very cool! why didnt you do it burn? as it was going over the road anyway? did it damage the road? how much did that one tree cost?

[No_Bivy]

Holy Shat thats wild Burnham.....HUGE trunk. Any vid?

[PCTREE]

WOW.

Woody my son would say HOLY MOLIE

[top hopper]

WOW!

Awesome man!

[CurSedVoyce]

Awesome big wood plop pics B.. Never did one that big yet.. I have a good size bull pine coming up this winter.. But man oh man. Be hard for this lil ol guy to run that big of saw and bar.. Maybe someday I'll get to try it ;)

[OTGBOSTON]

:big-not-worthy:

nice work B!

[Newfie]

Big tree. Nice pics.8)

[KGmyrek]

:))

[Burnham]

very cool! why didnt you do it burn? as it was going over the road anyway? did it damage the road? how much did that one tree cost?

If the situation was that we only had that one hazard tree to remove then I would have done it myself. And when we identify a specific imminent hazard tree at any time then I'm the guy doing the falling.

But we have a significant hazard tree removal program going now on the Mt. Hood NF; this is the third seperate contract we've let this operating season and on average we've had about 1200 trees per contract to be removed, doing as complete a survey for them on some of our major travel routes as we can and cleaning those miles out. There's no way I could handle +3500 trees in house. That number is totally budget driven...if we had the appropriated dollars for it we have a far greater need than this...it's a long term effort, with never a true end.

So this one big tree was part of a bid on 1015 trees that this contractor is in the process of removing. I just helped out a bit, with advice and formal loan of specialized equipment :).

No damage to the road...the part of the tree that hit was pretty punky, and it hit pretty flat.

You guys will have a hard time swallowing the price for falling that tree...the contract was bid on a per tree basis. We did a thorough site visit with all potential bidders looking at the range of sizes and complexity prior to taking bids. The award went for $38 per tree. So that's what was earned for that one tree. Sounds insanely cheap, eh? Of course, he earned $38 for the 65 foot, 16" dbh tree next in line down the road, too. He has to clear one off the road occasionally, but no removal from the site. And remember, that tree took less than 30 minutes to put on the ground all together, longer than most by far.

The operation has two state-certified flaggers, the faller, and the owner/operator of the 220 excavator (who is the contractor) on site full time.

I am not privy to Leonard's specific costs, but I can guess pretty close...the two flagger's cost to him is about $200/day each, the sawyer is about $500, fuel and oil and supplies no more than $200. Danny is getting 50 to 60 trees a day, so for an outlay of $1100 Leonard is earning $1900 to $2300 per day, leaving $800 to $1200 per day for himself and his excavator. That's not bad money, especially with things the way they are these days.

[sotc]

interesting summary, thanks B

[CurSedVoyce]

I was wondering about that... thanks B.

[stig]

Stig woulda had that down with a 24" bar on a 441.

.

As hollow as that tree was, that would certainly have been possible!

Burnham, when you subcontract jobs like that out, are the contractors tied hand and foot with a whole bunch of " can't do this and can't do that" bull.
Everytime we work for the forest service here, most of the pages in the contract are filled with things we can't do, right down to the kind of chainlube we have to use ( biodegrdable, of course) and the max pressure pr. square foot of soil our vehicles can excert.
It gets to be a little too much, sometimes.
I just won a big (4000 kubic meters) logging contract, that'll see me through the winter, there were 14 full A4 pages of " can't do!"

[Newfie]

That's huge Stig. If I did my math and comversions properly, that figures to 1,648,000 Board Feet?

[stig]

I can't work those board feet out for the life of me!
It translates to all the trees 3 guys can fall and buck in about 2½ months of solid work. I have 2 other smaller contracts, so We'll make it through the winter and spring with no worries.

The financial crisis hit the logging industry hard here, and very suddenly, too.
We were doing fine, and then about a month ago,all of a sudden it totally dried up. I have really had to scramble to make a living these last 3 weeks, since residential work has dried up, too.
My last chance of making it without having to fire anyone, was this job. I bid on it 1½ months ago and they were supposed to open the envelopes 2 weeks ago. Then there was some controversy about several companies not actually being qualified to do the work, so the whole thing was held up for a week.
I didn't sleep too much that week!!!
Then last friday, I got a phone call: We won the bid.
So now I'm a happy little logger again.

[Burnham]

As hollow as that tree was, that would certainly have been possible!

Burnham, when you subcontract jobs like that out, are the contractors tied hand and foot with a whole bunch of " can't do this and can't do that" bull.
Everytime we work for the forest service here, most of the pages in the contract are filled with things we can't do, right down to the kind of chainlube we have to use ( biodegrdable, of course) and the max pressure pr. square foot of soil our vehicles can excert.
It gets to be a little too much, sometimes.
I just won a big (4000 kubic meters) logging contract, that'll see me through the winter, there were 14 full A4 pages of " can't do!"

But of course, Stig...after all, it's a federal government contract :cry:.

Believe it or not, a lot of the restrictions are not based on what the US Forest Service feels are needed to protect the forest and it's resources, but rather based on the results of a long string of lawsuits filed against our activities by urban-based environmentalists. We either play by the rules that the judges have laid out for us, based on the laws our elected officials passed in Congress, or we go home. That's the landscape we occupy.

One aspect of my job as a COR (Contracting Officer's Representative) is to find the narrow space between the "can't do" and the "accomplish the work" within the contract language, the law, and the reality of working on the ground. No one wants to see damage to our valuable natural resources...I just try to figure out where the wiggle room is to get it done so the objectives are met and the contractor makes some money.

Rules governing logging operations are exceedingly prescriptive, and road repair work gets that way too if you need to get off the existing road prism with equipment.

[stig]

We contractors don't want to see damage to natural resourses either, or as is more often the case here, to historical artifacts.
Sometimes here I think political correctness gets in the way.
One example: Odsherred Statsskovdistrikt ( Ods shire state forest distrikt.......see, danish is easy!!) has forbidden their workers the use of aerosol spraypaint even outdoors, because of the fumes.
As a result all the trees marked for felling are marked with an oldfashioned u-shaped knife, that cuts a line of bark off.
That is simply impossible to see at any distance, so to get an overview of the area to be select cut, I have to Spraypaint the trees myself.
Apparently the fumes aren't hurtful to contractors, because they don't care that we use spraypaint.
A lot of the rules, like those concerning the height of stumps, or damage to standing trees, watersheds etc. make sense,there are a lot of not very conscientious contractors out there, but every year it seems like the amount of BS regulations grows.


Maybe I'm just being grumpy today, after filling out forms for hours, once I get to the actual logging part, I'll feel better.

[blue]

nice pics of a BIG tree Burn:)

[Angus]

Bam! Some poster pics right there. Great stuff B, big wood!

[boboak]

But of course, Stig...after all, it's a federal government contract :cry:.

Believe it or not, a lot of the restrictions are not based on what the US Forest Service feels are needed to protect the forest and it's resources, but rather based on the results of a long string of lawsuits filed against our activities by urban-based environmentalists. We either play by the rules that the judges have laid out for us, based on the laws our elected officials passed in Congress, or we go home. That's the landscape we occupy.

One aspect of my job as a COR (Contracting Officer's Representative) is to find the narrow space between the "can't do" and the "accomplish the work" within the contract language, the law, and the reality of working on the ground. No one wants to see damage to our valuable natural resources...I just try to figure out where the wiggle room is to get it done so the objectives are met and the contractor makes some money.

Rules governing logging operations are exceedingly prescriptive, and road repair work gets that way too if you need to get off the existing road prism with equipment.


Well said.

[Altissimus]

That is a nice combination of Grey Beard power , a Large saw , and a faller complete with a younger back ....

[Bounce]

:O WOW! The only thing I've ever cut that was close to that big was with a crosscut in the Norse Peak Wilderness Area. A 084 with 60" bar probably makes this a lot easier. Looks like fun!

[wiley_p]

This is the biggest dead fir I've done to date. Took over five hours to get the rigging set and face it up and crank it over with the GRCS and a 3:1.

[wiley_p]

more.

[wiley_p]

waiting for the winch to catch up.

[wiley_p]

more.

[wiley_p]

Top of tree.

[wiley_p]

Took a while to get it pounded over.

[Thor's Hammer]

Maybe its a european thing but I would have used a 395 with a 28" bar to drop that tree quite happily. In fact, I rarely use the 088 / 3120 for felling, more for just crosscutting and quartering big logs.


Nice pics Burnham, and nice pics Dave.

[Burnham]

I agree that it is a European/USA difference, Ed. One big reason we use long bars out here in the PNW is that the steepness of the ground really can inhibit working all around the tree base. If you need to stay on one side of the tree for most of the felling work, long reach helps a lot. Full wrap handles, too.

Not a factor in the tree in my pics, but frequently enough to generate the cutomary use of the long bar.

We just don't get taught the technique like you do.

[wiley_p]

After knocking the bark and sapwood off it went from just over 74" to just under 60". Quite a ways for a guy to cut when doubling up on a dead tree with backlean. The 660 with a 42" was a lot less fussing around. Often when using long bars we start cuts with a saw with a 28" or a 32" anyways. different strokes. Sometimes nice to not have to go pokin around with the tip wondering if all the wood is cut up.

[Burnham]

Oh, I agree with you Dave. That's always the way I prefer to do it. But I've seen some guys who could do mighty well with shorter bars, too.

[MasterBlaster]

Great pics, thanks for posting them! :rockon:

[CurSedVoyce]

Awesome wood ! Nice to drop the bigguns. :)

[sotc]

yeah dave, thanks for the add on pics:rockhard:

[Burnham]

I followed a guest to this old thread, too. Been a while...man, does time fly by. I think I started a couple of other threads about my hazard tree removal contractors that season, too. Maybe I'll go hunt for those, too. Good fun to stroll down memory lane, for me anyway :).

[sotc]

Great thread

[MasterBlaster]

Why does the bark get shaved off?

[Burnham]

The saw's dogs don't stick well in oldgrowth Doug fir bark, it's soft and spongy. And it's really thick, like 6-8 inches on that tree...makes it harder to match up your face cuts if it's not removed. And if your bar is short by only a few inches, removing it can simplify the job.

[18 stoner]

Nice to see this again Burnham, nice thread!

[MasterBlaster]

I've been educated!

[inbredJed]

Yah.... Really cool.... Thanks! Pretty good shots for a low-light drizzly day! I doubt if Jerry thinks much about these new-fangled cameras, but I'll be darned.

[Gord]

When was that cannon bar made Burnham? Never seen one like it.

[Burnham]

Mid 1990's, best guess. I could run it down pretty close without undue effort if it's of interest, Gord.

[Ed L]

Excellent thread Burnham, thanks for bringing it up!

FWIW, Cannons website. http://cannonbar.com/

Ed

[woodworkingboy]

Burnham,
I'm interested in the safety aspect of the hazardous tree removals, being that they can add a certain level of difficulty, if not risk, to the operation. I was kind of surprised that Danny, who had never used a big saw like that one, or removed a tree of that scale before, did the work. Obviously you supervised, which frames it in a level of expertise, but I assume given the number of trees that the contract called for, you didn't participate all the time. Are there some specific parameters set up to insure that the people doing the work are skilled to do so safely, beyond which, say falling healthy trees requires, they have experience at? That gets left up to the contractor, his bid, so his problem? It is obviously potentially hazardous work, and probably the gamut of situations that trees can get into, would any logging contractor in your area be capable of doing the job? I also wonder to what degree the situations are evaluated and discussed, before the removal operation begins. Presumably highly skilled people doing their jobs within the range of their capabilities, but as we have seen at the treehouse, sometimes seeking advice, like in the case not so long ago where Willie was looking at a dead tree to possibly take out, getting some additional assessment to get the best approach, is probably a good idea. Are you privilege to the operations as they take place, asked to participate in questionable situations? I'm wondering how the people doing the work go about it, to get the results required.

Thanks.

[FJR]

The saw's dogs don't stick well in oldgrowth Doug fir bark, it's soft and spongy. And it's really thick, like 6-8 inches on that tree...makes it harder to match up your face cuts if it's not removed. And if your bar is short by only a few inches, removing it can simplify the job.

Thanks for answering that Burnham, I was curious to why that was done also. It makes sense. :)

[Burnham]

Jay, this work is performed under contract, as you know. One of the pertinent factors a bidder must address in their proposal is the qualifications of the individuals who will be performing the work...in terms of experience level, training, and certifications. As you also probably recall, there is no private industry certification program for chain saw operators in the US...so that last factor is moot. Perhaps oddly, the traffic control flaggers on these contracts are required to have documented professional training as well as a state certification :|:. Neither is the case for fallers.

So documented experience, as well as competent performance on previous contract work, carries the load of evidence when a Contracting Officer evaluates the quality of a particular bid.

You ask would any logging contractor be able to handle the work...there are plenty of custom cutters who are fully able, but like in any field, there are less skilled ones, too.

Once the contract is awarded, my role is to act as the Contracting Officer's technical expert on the ground, termed the Contracting Officer's Representative. As such, I cannot direct how the work is pursued. But I have full authority to halt work, in fact am required to do so, if I observe work practices that are unsafe to the point of having potential to injure or kill either the workers or the public.

On a job like hazard tree removals, I make it a point to closely moniter the skill level of the sawyers when the project commences. If I am satisfied with what I see and hear (for I engage closely with these guys to find out where/what/how much experience they have, no matter what the company boss has submitted in the bid), then I loosen up my oversight. If I have less confidence, then I monitor more closely. So really, ensuring that the people doing the cutting have the chops to handle it falls to the COR...which of course begs the question, "does the COR have the skill to tell?"

In reality, few have those skills at the level I do. On this Forest, we know that...so I tend to handle most of the hazard tree removal contracts either as COR or as designated inspector on those I don't have time enough to perform all of the COR duties. On those contracts, I'll at least put in enough time to make a judgement about whether we have a rookie who's likely to have problems handling the job safely. It's not so hard to tell :).

More informally, as in the case with Danny, I do give input on how he might handle a particular tree, but that is basically more on a personal basis, not part of contract administration. Some guys don't want any input, some like to chew on ideas and different ways to approach felling problems. Danny has been falling professionally for nearly 10 years, mostly here in western Oregon and Washington, and some time over in eastern Washington and northern Idaho. He's real good with a saw, and runs a 460 or 660 day after day. There are a few tricks to working with a 5 foot bar that he'd not had an opportunity to learn...but I had no worries about putting that saw in his hands for that fell.

Once in a while a contract cutter will decide to pass on a tree...not very often at all, but it has happened. They do have that option, providing I agree the tree has significant attendent hazards to the faller. In such rare cases, I usually fall that tree after the contract is completed, though we have blasted one or two over the years.

[inbredJed]

Hey Burnham: I've got no falling experience. Can I do the next one?

[Gord]

Mid 1990's, best guess. I could run it down pretty close without undue effort if it's of interest, Gord.

No biggie Burnham just curious, have only ever seen the black/orange ones.

[woodworkingboy]

Great response, thanks. You seem to do a real thorough job at whatever the tasks call for, and at the same time go about it in a relaxed fashion, it is highly commendable. It sure isn't something that gets established in a short period, knowing your way around people and situations takes a lot of experience. Covering the ground with responsibility but not being a hard case, I don't think it is so common.

You have mentioned before about the periodic training requirements for people doing cutting on government lands, so that would only apply to government employees, and not those in the privates sector who are awarded contracts?

I have conveyed your information to a number of people here, lots of cutting operations going on in the woods via tax dollars, and lots of injuries I hear about as well. Nothing required beyond a very basic chainsaw certification for work done on prefectural or national lands, a two day course, and many of the people taking it have no experience at all with a saw, let alone falling trees, yet they will soon be doing such work....hard to believe. Everyone with experience on the ground level does well understand that there is much need for improvement and a firm program established, but the suits don't seem to be able to develop the concept in their brains, and work towards a suitable arrangement. I don't really know what the problem is. I'm going to be meeting with the son-in-law of a good customer of mine, when he makes it out my way. He works for the government in a pretty high position managing the country's forests, a younger guy with some smarts, I know they had him over in Washington state for a couple years doing research in some capacity. I'm curious to know to what degree he really knows what is going on? If anybody in those offices in Tokyo does, or if they care? My connection to it is pretty much only one of interest, though I have a standing call to work for one of the contractors whenever I want. I've done it a few times, but other things keep me occupied. Still, I keep my ear to the ground and a lot of the work being done is close. The inefficiencies or whatever you want to call it, are really blatant here, but like so many aspects of the culture that get hemmed into an old time routine, it takes a foreigner to try and point out the problems with it, and rarely does anyone pay attention to the outsider. In that regard, your information is really helpful to give comparison. I'm hoping that the fellow I meet will have more an open mind. Thanks again.

[Burnham]

Thanks, Jay. I try :).

I've been doing contract admin for the USFS for nearly 30 years, working up through the ranks to top level COR, which I've been rated at for nearly 20 years. I'm way better at it than when I was younger, experience is a huge factor in finding the space between the contract specs and the reality of working in the real world to meet the FS objectives without giving away the farm, while not making it unneccesarily difficult for the contractor to make a reasonable profit.

As to your question about chainsaw certification to cut on gov't lands...
I've spoken highly of the USFS S-212 chainsaw training and certification program, and others who are familiar with this training (wiley p, old monkey, bodean, etc.) have had positive things to say about it, too. You may recall that I instruct and certify in this program.

This requirement applies only to FS employees (and volunteers) when working.

If you are interested in the gory details, I can give a more detailed overview of the program, either in open forum or pm.

When you get the Japanese government convinced they need to set up a regulatory system and a training and certification program, let them know that I'll be retiring sooner rather than later, and for a properly obscene renumeration, will come over and tell them how to do it :D.

Oh, I'd need an interpreter familiar with the terms associated with the subject...of course properly rewarded, too...interested? :)

[Peter]

The details of the UK system can be found online if you are interested Jay, its far from perfect but it is a system.

[woodworkingboy]

Interesting idea, Burnham, I wouldn't at all mind being your chauffeur, just give a shout when I start to drive on the wrong side of the road, it still happens sometimes. ;)
Seriously, it would be very cool if something like that could be arranged, i will sure mention you when getting together with the government guy. It could really get things moving in a much more positive direction.

Thanks Peter, I found a site for the Arboriculture and Forestry Advisory Group (AFAG). Is that what you are referring to?

[MasterBlaster]

A fag?

Ha!

[Burnham]

Hey Burnham: I've got no falling experience. Can I do the next one?

Nah Jed, I wouldn't want you to get hurt...but you can blast the next one I decide to pass on, how's that?
:lol:

[CurSedVoyce]

Somehow I don't think I would want to fall one you would pass on Burnam :lol:

[sotc]

No but it would be fun to blast it!

[Peter]

Thanks Peter, I found a site for the Arboriculture and Forestry Advisory Group (AFAG). Is that what you are referring to?

Yes partly, this (http://www.nptc.org.uk/assessment-schedules/) site has all the assessment schedules for chainsaw and related certificates.

MB, yup, over here we are told how to cut trees by A Fag. Lol.

[stig]

We operate with a similar system.
Every time I bid on a state logging contract, I have to submit my whole CV in the field.
That includes proof that I have the capacity to bid on a contract of that size.
I even have to submit my yearly gross income, to prove that my company is big enough.

That is good, because it keeps the riff-raff out of the woods, but it makes it almost impossible for new guys to enter the field.

So for a newly started faller, it is impossible to work for the state, unless he/she teams up with an operator, who is qualified.

That narrows the field of competitors a lot, which makes my life easier,

But once the oldtimers like me are gone, who are going to take over.

[sierratree]

question on the undercut............did the faller work on one side and then first remove the half completed undercut.........then move to the offside and continue the gunning and sloped cuts? Guess if you do it that way, you can see the back of the undercut: something to work with? But if you are off on your 2 cuts, then your committed to a bad second half...........so you have to be certain the offside will line up at the corner?

[flushcut]

I would have loved to have heard that one hit the ground.

[NickfromWI]

Burnham, we need to get you a video camera!!!

[Burnham]

question on the undercut............did the faller work on one side and then first remove the half completed undercut.........then move to the offside and continue the gunning and sloped cuts? Guess if you do it that way, you can see the back of the undercut: something to work with? But if you are off on your 2 cuts, then your committed to a bad second half...........so you have to be certain the offside will line up at the corner?

The horizontal cut of the face was made first with the 084, working from both sides until the gun was set. Then the angled cuts was made with the 660 from first one side, and that chunk removed with a vertical bore from the front. Then the same from the other side. Because the center of the tree was so rotten, essentially the faller only had to shape up the outer ends of the hinge. What happened in the middle was rather moot.

If the wood is sound all the way acrosss, then it's much more important to match the middle, and working from one side and then over to the other does allow you to see what's going on in the center.

[gf beranek]

Where were the environmentalists? That old dead fir was valuable habitat.

The rind was the cream in that tree. Oh, baby, clear and vertical all the way. Would have made some good timbers for sure.

[Burnham]

Only removed as a hazard to a heavily traveled through route on the NF, Jerry. And I do sometimes get a complaint or two.

[gf beranek]

Just rattling your cage, B. A practical decision had to be made. And it was just.

[Burnham]

Yeah...a tree like that would flatten a station wagon full of family like a beer can under a crummy tire.

I was mostly answering for the newbies who may not have seen the whole thread...I knew you were in the loop.
;)

[flushcut]

I saw the pics of the tree and that is all that counts. Oh how I want to cut a biggin like that.

[Burnham]

It does stand out in a faller's portfolio to have a few in that range on the tally sheet :).