pistols

[okietreedude]

Im fixing to buy my first pistol and am looking for suggestions and info.

Im pretty set on a 9mm. Ive toyed the idea of 40 s&w and also the 45 acp, but after all and all, Im leaning back to the 9mm. The ammo is cheaper and the recoil isnt as bad. I thought of the 40 as a cross between the 9 and 45, but seems everyone ive mentioned it too has said to stay away from 40.

What do you guys think?

also, Im still trying to decide which brand to go with. I like the ruger except that its big. Ive only been to one shop (my indoor range) and he doesnt have much in inventory. What other brands should i be looking at?

thanks for your imput.

also, it will be an auto.

[NeTree]

Have you looked at a S&W 10mm auto?

[Skwerl]

Glock. 8)

And if you're looking for a CCW then the Glock 36 (.45 ACP) is nice because the magazine is a single stack, resulting in a thinner handle and lighter loaded weight but you still have the stopping power of the .45.

[Dave Shepard]

I had a Glock 22 in .40, I liked it. The best part was that I didn't have to worry about babying it. It was a great utility gun. Rugers are my favorite guns, I don't know what they are offering these days, but they have had great autoloaders in the past, and I wouldn't be afraid of them.

[sawinredneck]

Have you looked at a S&W 10mm auto?

Better yet a Colt in 10mm:P

I used to like 9mm, but it's never really improved like the other rounds have with new bullet technology.

The .40 is the neutered version of the 10mm, because someone in the FBI got scared (after spending millions to figure out that the 10mm met all the criteria the FBI DEMANDED for it's new round) that some agents couldn't handle the round.
They downloaded the 10mm, then S&W thought "Hey, less powder, less case volume is needed!" Viola the .40 S&W! The ammo came out so fast the only gun on the market at the time that culd shoot it was the S&W 610 revolver:lol:

Out of a 1911 style, I really enjoy shooting .45acp, out of a Ruger, I hated it!!!

.357Sig, .45GAP, hell you can have a cartridge of the month if you wanted!

[NeTree]

I have the 1076 Smith.

With a hot load, it's damn near identical to the .45 ACP in stopping power.

[sawinredneck]

I have the 1076 Smith.

With a hot load, it's damn near identical to the .45 ACP in stopping power.

I love the round Erick!!! Colt Delta Elite and I handload. Just didn't care for the S&W guns, felt like holding a 2x4 to me. Different strokes...........

[NeTree]

I have huge paws. :lol:

[CurSedVoyce]

Of course Rob the marine says ... colt 45 with pachmayr grips ...
Ahhh business partners.. LOL

I really need to just get him to register here and he can input from his own puter in the next room.. LOL

[darkstar]

If its your very first ever , i reccomend a ruger .22.
or a browning .22
The ruger hunter model .22 is really nice.
Just play ,for cheap ,for a while befor moving up to more expensive ammo.
With a .22 will learn u alot for pennies..
Jerr

[pantheraba]

If you plan to keep it with you all the time you will want a smaller package that isn't too ponderous...a Sig P230 in .380 carries well..so does a Walther PPK/S...good for concealed carry.

If you plan to have it in the house or car but not carry it a lot a Sig P220 in .45 is good. It carries fine in the right rig but is not very concealable.

Dark's .22 suggestion is a good one...cheap ammo will let you get in a lot of practice.

[lumberjack]

Good grief.

Nothing wrong with a 9mm.

I prefer Glocks, specifically the G19 for a 9mm platform. I can recommend the Springfield XD, or SW MP. For a smaller platform I like a Springfield EMP, but it's not that much smaller than a baby Glock.

There's also nothing wrong with the 40 chambering. The 10mm isn't for most people and I'd charge that in nearly any situation it's at least equal to 45ACP/GAP.

If you're going to carry it all the time, AND you don't want to change your clothing/lifestyle, I'd recommend a small gun. I prefer a J frame SW in 357 over a 380. The 380 isn't a bad round, although it's at the bottom of what I consider marginal. With a J frame I'm loaded at 14oz and have 2 rounds of 38 special and 3 rounds of 357 with a spare 5 rounds in another pocket.

I have minimal trouble concealing a G19 in a IWB holster, as some here can attest. I have no trouble concealing a J frame in anything but a speedo.

[Stumper]

David, They are all good. The Rugers are great values and tend to run foreverbut they are BIG. If you are on a limited budget used can be very good. So can brands like Bersa (Argentina) I used to own a S&W 59. A good gun. I shot it well but hated the blocky grip so I sold it when i needed money. I love revolvers more than autoloaders but I decided a while back that I needed another 9mm and bought a Bersa. Dead reliable and a lot of fun. ( And it cost less new than I sold the 59 for a dz years previously). Buy something that you like and feels good in your hand. Have fun.

[okietreedude]

Carl, the equality of a 40 and 45 was what my gun guy told me...'if your thinking 40, step on up tothe 45.'

Im not thinking continuous ccw, but in the car/house like panther mentioned. I was also thinking of the 9 for the cheaper ammo to practice with, yet having something decent enough for protection. a 22 hardly stops a tree rat.

also, 9mm is readliy available. some others arent.

40 is not suggested to reload and though I dont plan on it, it may happen someday (i do have a press and stuff).

I can always step up to a 45 down the road.

does anyone know anything about the CZ line?

[okietreedude]

stump, I hear ya on the rugers being big, thats exactly what I thought too.

another brand for ? - taurus... anyone?

my cousin has a glock and loves it. I hear its a love/hate w/ the glock line - you love them or hate them.

[lumberjack]

There's nothing wrong with reloading 40.

You're gun guy is a bit off. Going from 40 to 45 in almost any chassis requires going to a larger frame.

Again, there's nothing wrong with 9mm against anything you'd shoot with a 45. A 10mm can be another league entirely.

[Skwerl]

The love/hate thing with Glocks is mostly due to the fat, square grips. Most Glocks have a double stack magazine and they feel like a 2X2 in your hand. The 36 is one of the exceptions.

[lumberjack]

stump, I hear ya on the rugers being big, thats exactly what I thought too.

another brand for ? - taurus... anyone?

my cousin has a glock and loves it. I hear its a love/hate w/ the glock line - you love them or hate them.

A Glocks trigger guard can be changed (yourself, nothing to it, no worries, don't over think it) to make it more comfortable for nearly everyone. I can shoot a 1911 as well as I can shoot a Glock or XD. I haven't shot a M&P, but I don't see a problem there.

Tarus/Rossi, Ruger is the Echo of saws. They still function and they've came a long ways, but I don't want them.

If you want a 1911 style, that's an option. But in the polymer lineup, again I say, stick with Glock, SW MP's, or the Springfield XD.

[lumberjack]

The love/hate thing with Glocks is mostly due to the fat, square grips. Most Glocks have a double stack magazine and they feel like a 2X2 in your hand. The 36 is one of the exceptions.

The 10mm/45's use a completely different frame than the 9mm/40/357SIG, and the 36 is the only single stack.

Most people bitch about the grip angle, from what I've seen.

[ewsa]

A Glocks a safe gun if youre ever worried your gonna drop it. A few months ago I shot a browning high power for the first time and started my search to buy one as soon as I left the range. Picked one up in 9mm, no problems carrying concealed with it. With a little bit of gun smithing, its the most accurate 9mm I've shot. I prefer larger calibers, but the Browning HP patterns for me like no other

[Blinky]

I claim old school on this one... Browning Hi-Power; a compact CZ-75 for carrying out of sight... which I never do anymore.

[Stumper]

Chip, Those are both dandies.-Good ergonomics from before pinheaded bureaucrats discovered eronomics was a word.

[cybergeek23851]

If you were going for concealability, I have to throw the notion of the Bersa 9mm or .380 into the ring. They are very small, shoot well, and fairly reliable.

That being said, I still can't complain about my Glock 19 or my Smith and Wesson 6904.
My opinion is still up in the air on my last purchase... Llama 1911 with 600 rds of .45 for $100. :D I just need to hit the range to try it.

[rfwoodvt]

Good Guns are like Good Women...Each man has his own preferred shape, size, color and style and would like nothing more than to snuggle up to the perfect one! But, in a pinch, a man will be happy to have whatever he can get!:P:lol:

Some food for thought here that I haven't yet seen in this thread...maybe it's here but I'm often blind anyways! 8)

What is a good process for selecting a firearm?

The first thing you want to do is decide what the job is that you want the round to do.

Then determine which round will do the job and provide a bit extra than you would expect (akin to SWL and ropes)

Now you need to find a firearm that will not only handle that round but will also fit the job criteria and fit you like a glove.

For example a lot of people love the Glock in 9mm for general CC. Myself, I feel that the 9mm just won't put the stop on my target as much as I would like. Putting that thought aside, I have wide palms and short fingers. The Glock, or any double stack mag for that matter, does not fit my hands at all.

In this case the 9mm and glock while great rounds and guns will not suit me.

After using the above analysis I decided that the vernable .45ACP in std mil loads will stop my targe quite handily and to my surprise the 1911 Govt fits my hand perfectly. Shooting it is also a dream with recoil being minimal.

CC is OK with this gun but I also wanted a smaller profile for certain occasions. There are times when a nice old 1911 is just not readily concealable.

So, I also need something that fits that bill. Unfortunately since the firearm is the leading factor in this decision I ended up having to concede to a smaller round.

9mm is definitely a close quarters self defence round and compact 9mm handguns abound but all the 9mm luger guns seem to be double stack mags. As I mentioned, they don't fit my hands at all.

Enter the three-eighty. Bersa makes a compact single stack that fits anywhere you care to hide it and with almost zero recoil you can unload it fast into your target.

My buddy has one and I have consistently shot my first five rounds into the center of mass (6 inch circle) in under 3 seconds.

It is still not a .45acp stop'em-in-thier-tracks round so instead of 1 showstopper I have 5 that will bring down the curtain.

This Bersa is also well suited for the ladies.

Anyhow, my advise is determine the job, find the right "nail" to do the job, then find the right "hammer" to drive the nail. And if the right "hammer" won't fit the space you have find a hammer that "fits" and then figure out what "nails" you need to drive.

[TheTreeWiseMen]

Walther P99c 9mm is what I'll get when Nassau county send me my permit. :X (better pic this time) This one has the QA trigger system, I'll be going for the AS system. Check out the Walther PPS in 9mm also.

[sawinredneck]

Bersa makes a fine gun, the CZ-75's and clones all shoot nice (what the Desert Eagle guns are based on), Tarus/Rossi are both nice guns on the low end and high end.
Straightest shooting gun I ever owned was a $125 Llama 1911 in 9mm!!
If ammo is a deterent, you might want to look at a convertable gun. Put a .22 barrel and slide on it for plinking and keeping the feel of shooting it, then switch over to a more effective round for defense. There are a few of these made, and more conversions comming out all the time, just keep you're ears and eyes open.
The Rugers are a fine gun, the take down procedure is odd on the autos, but nothing wrong at all with them. I just don't like the way they shoot .45acp myself! Too damn loud, too much pressure, I don't know, but they hurt my ears like no other gun ever has!!
I used to carry a .380, I wont own another one. Very "snappy" recoil and the .32acp has a better record in a smaller package.
With the wheel gun, you can "set it and forget it", auto's tend to like being rubbed on and having attention now and again. Otherwise they don't always perform happy. The polymer frames are les prone to that to a degree.



Now here is what I suggest, around here there are a couple of gun stores/shooting ranges that will let you rent different guns and shoot them. "Try it before you buy it", rent different calibers and different guns and shoot them. If they think you are going to buy from them they will work with you on pricing. Hell Carl probably has his own changing room at one of these places:P But that lets you get the feel for what they will shoot like, then settle on what you want from there.

[Blinky]

[...]
Enter the three-eighty. Bersa makes a compact single stack that fits anywhere you care to hide it and with almost zero recoil you can unload it fast into your target.

[...]

Use your .380 to shoot yer way to the 1911 and then use the 1911 to shoot your way upstairs to your shotgun.

[darkstar]

I absolutly love my glock.
There is now way i could have gained any profiency with it at the cost of 9 mill ammo though.
It took me about 10,000 rounds befor i could finally say i ws beganning to learn things that arent obvious. In other words i was just scratching the surface.Another 20,000 rounds and i could see the surface scratches.Thats alot of cash even in .22
Changing from .22 ,my pratice ammo, to 9 mill took some getting used to but for sure, but all the pratice helped alot. I started getting centers in the first 200 rounds.
Yesterday i was going to see how much id lost not having shot since vacation and my first shot with the 9 mill at 25 yards [pure luck] was a prefect bulls eye.
I just let that be the only shot of the day haha.:P
So IMO unless you got tons of cash ,you need a pratice gun ,and of course whatever gun you are going to carry.Which you will have to pratice alot with as well.
I just dont see how anybody can afford to blast away 500 rounds of 9 mill anymore.:\: $$$

[darkstar]

Ohh that was i needed going to the range now:|:

[Blinky]

[...]
I just dont see how anybody can afford to blast away 500 rounds of 9 mill anymore.:\: $$$

You think that's bad, try doing that with .223 or .308. During the match shooting season I used to burn through at least 1200 rounds a week... 150 - 200 handloads and Winchester Q3131A for the rest. It helps to be in a club so you can buy big quantity.

It takes a lot longer to load match rounds than to shoot'em, lemme tell ya.

Incidentally, if you shoot an Armalite rifle, don't shoot Winchester Q3131 (the US manufactured stuff), it will cause the extractor to jam after 20 or 30 rounds. Use Q3131A, manufactured in Israel. The American stuff shoots fine in a Colt or a Bushmaster. Pretty accurate for factory ammo.

[pantheraba]

It took me about 10,000 rounds befor i could finally say i ws beganning to learn things that arent obvious. In other words i was just scratching the surface.Another 20,000 rounds and i could see the surface scratches.Thats alot of cash even in .22

That's what I meant, too, about the .22 -- my greatest jump in skill took place when my brother in law gave me several thousand rounds of .22 one Christmas. I shot everyday after work for weeks and saw good results from the constant practice.

There are a lot of basics that can be honed with a .22.

[NeTree]

Well, if you really want stopping power in an auto pistol...

Hard to beat my .475 Wildey. ;)

Even if you don't hit them, the sight and sound will give them a heart attack!

[lumberjack]

Last year I could reload 1k 9mm rounds for $70 including paying myself $15 per hour. I bet now it's closer to $100 per k.

I don't believe the bullet exists to transmit the power from the 475 to a thin skinned target. A 50AE or a 44Mag both offer thin jacketed hollow points that would seem to do better in thin skinned game.

Walter makes a good gun.



...Hell Carl probably has his own changing room at one of these places:P...


Haha, just saw that. I've only been to one indoor range and that was with Tophopper. I buy most of my guns from the same place. Depending on the gun I get 0-10% off sticker price, and they throw some extras in.

IMO, to the average person, the type of gun doesn't matter as long as it's quality. Shooting is the skill, not manipulating a specific gun. When you start down the other side of the bell curve (more advanced) you can extract more from yourself with a specific gun, but still in a general sense, what gun doesn't matter.

My best accuracy is with a SW627 or my WC1911. If I had to have only one handguns it'd probably be a J frame (360SC or 340SC), if I could have two it would be a J frame and a G19. Since I'm not limited by a certain number, I'll take one of each, thanks :)

[stig]

Well, if you really want stopping power in an auto pistol...

Hard to beat my .475 Wildey. ;)

Even if you don't hit them, the sight and sound will give them a heart attack!

And if that don't work, the two native bearers, you need to have on hand to carry the damn thing, can beat them up:P

[fishhuntcutwood]

Glock. 8)

And if you're looking for a CCW then the Glock 36 (.45 ACP) is nice because the magazine is a single stack, resulting in a thinner handle and lighter loaded weight but you still have the stopping power of the .45.

Agreed. I love Glocks for CCW. I'm also a big fan of Sigs, but am more partial to the original SA/DA variety, in particular the 220 and 226. I love mine.

Not a big fan of Ruger semi-autos, but love their revolvers. Almost like two different companies if you ask me.

I carry 9mm and 45. I like the 45 better, and prefer it, but still maintain my 9mm inventory and ammo. It's affordable, and it is truely the most universal round in the WORLD.

[NeTree]

Carl, cast hollow points work well for that.

[sawinredneck]

Well, if you really want stopping power in an auto pistol...

Hard to beat my .475 Wildey. ;)

Even if you don't hit them, the sight and sound will give them a heart attack!

That works!! Along the same lines is the ever popular .357 Peterbuilt!
Wish I could come across as an Automag for a reaslistic price, nothing like them in the world!!! I got to handle one, but not shoot it! Heavy, but:|:

[The Branch Doctor]

I'm a hunting revolver kind of guy all the way. I don't trust the reliability of autos as a sidearm in the high country. I LOVE my Ruger SuperBlackhawk .44 magnum and carry it often with no discomfort whatsoever.

Plus I think there's something to be said for the "absolute" stopping power of the .44 mag..... if you get hit by one (regardless of where) you are absolutely going down.;)

:D

[okietreedude]

Doc,

i couldnt agree more. however, im not planning on hunt w/ it just yet. If if ever did get to the back country were a bear encounter was possible, i would be carrying something more sizable in a revolver type.

You dont happen to be doing any elk hunting assistance work next fall do you? Ive wanted to go for sometime, but know nothing about where to put in for tags and I sure dont know the areas once i got there.

[MasterBlaster]

The good old 45 has "absolute" stopping power, and is safer for bystanders.

[Blinky]

A .44Mag Blackhawk is without a doubt the funnest handgun on the planet.

[lumberjack]

There's nothing magical about a 230 grain piece of lead flying at 850 fps that can't be done with another caliber. The difference in diameter is twice the thickness of a credit card where the letters are raised to make a 380/38/357/9mm/357SIG/9x25Dillon the same diameter as the 45.

After you're above a certain threshold (380ACP/38SPC or above for me) shot placement matters a lot more than what you're slinging at however fast. The 45 is a fine choice, but you still have to do your job. Shooting someone in the arm with a 45 will not instantly remove their arm, throw them across the ground, and send them to the here-after.

A 9mm compared to a 45 means you loose 4-5 rounds in a double stack, service sized handgun, but gain more girth in the process.

The 10mm with a 135gr HP @ 1600fps is a wicked little round.

[Monkeywithasaw]

maybe try a taurus 24/7 there small frame fits a small hand and there double stacked or the newer walther cus the back strap can be taken out for a different sized hand. both of these come in calibers 9mm-45 and there pretty cheap

[MasterBlaster]

Shooting someone in the arm with a 45 will not instantly remove their arm, throw them across the ground, and send them to the here-after.

How do you know this?

[Stumper]

There is no such thing as absolute stopping power in handguns.

Butch, Carl knows it because many people have been shot in the arm with .45 acp bullets and not only survived, but continued to do whatever they were attempting to do at that moment.

[MasterBlaster]

As opposed to a 44 and they dropped dead? I'd like to see those stats.

[The Branch Doctor]

There is no such thing as absolute stopping power in handguns.

Butch, Carl knows it because many people have been shot in the arm with .45 acp bullets and not only survived, but continued to do whatever they were attempting to do at that moment.

There's no absolute anything..... but you know what I mean.;)

[Skwerl]

As opposed to a 44 and they dropped dead? I'd like to see those stats.

Who said that? What's your point, Butch? You're not making much sense here.

[MasterBlaster]

As I read it, Carl said a 45 won't kill/stop you if shot in the arm, and the 44 WILL.

And then I asked him how he arrived at that conclusion.

Did I miss something?

[MasterBlaster]

Shooting someone in the arm with a 45 will not instantly remove their arm, throw them across the ground, and send them to the here-after.

And WHAT gun will do that, Carl? In my mind, that sentence is saying that there IS a gun that will do that. Of coures, I may be misreading it. ;)

How's that, Brian?

[fishhuntcutwood]

A .44Mag Blackhawk is without a doubt the funnest handgun on the planet.

I'm more of a SRH kinda guy. I even like the looks of the SRH. I bought one for my "bear gun" in Kodiak. Never carried it once. (The danger of bears thing is greatly overblown.) I like it for a bear gun because of the DA/SA abilities of it.

[MasterBlaster]

(The danger of bears thing is greatly overblown.)


Except to the person being attacked by a bear. They would disagree! :)

[fishhuntcutwood]

Except to the person being attacked by a bear. They would disagree! :)

I agree, and there are times when a gun is a good thing, but I've had six bear encounters of less than 10', and they're not the monsters that alot of tourists think they are. Yeah, there's bear encounters every year, but did you know there's more alligator attacks in the US then there are bear attacks? Most of avoiding bear trouble is knowing how to move through their country, and then how to react when you see one.

[MasterBlaster]

Great movie!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b2/TheEdgeposter.jpg/200px-TheEdgeposter.jpg

[lumberjack]

Ah, my bad. I was talking about auto loaders. DE does make a 44mag in an auto loader, but it's not exactly a small gun.

If one wanted to compare dick sizes of production guns, the 460SW (same diameter as a 45ACP) or the 500SW would be king, or near it. I believe I remember running the numbers and found that at 100 yards, a 460SW has more energy left than a 44mag starts off with. It's comparable to the 45-70 in a strong action, but I would think the 45-70 would take the lead in heavier (450gr+) loads due to case capacity.

A 44Mag is a whole nother power level, but there's nothing magical about it either, regardless of Clint Eastwood.

Going from a 9mm to a 44Mag you loose 12 rounds and your splits go to hell.

[lumberjack]

And WHAT gun will do that, Carl? In my mind, that sentence is saying that there IS a gun that will do that. Of coures, I may be misreading it. ;)

How's that, Brian?


I was making the point that above a certain threshold (380ACP/38SPC for me) size doesn't matter, accuracy does.

As far as throwing someone with just kenetic energy, not likely. Guns with enough power to do that typically don't have bullets capable of dumping the energy into the target (they go through and through).

Add HE rounds and a 50BMG can get some movement, but that's generally overkill on fleshy targets.

[The Branch Doctor]

I'm more of a SRH kinda guy. I even like the looks of the SRH. I bought one for my "bear gun" in Kodiak. Never carried it once. (The danger of bears thing is greatly overblown.) I like it for a bear gun because of the DA/SA abilities of it.

I hear ya Jeff, the redhawks are sweet. They're nicely set up for a scope and the DA would be easier.... but they are obnoxiously heavy to carry on the hip and I think the SBH is smoother shooting... at least for me.:D

Around here I'm more concerned about kitty's then bears..... no grizzly here so our "yogi's" are much smaller. We do have some big lions and you don't want anything to do with that tango. Moose are pretty damn aggressive and ornery as well.

[The Branch Doctor]

As usual Carl has done his homework.:D

I will say I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a 9mm or a .45 auto just to have around but for the most part if I can't hunt with it then I'm not too interested.... now if they start letting me hunt for humans..... especially the stupid ones.... then I'll go for the autos.:evil::D


45/70 pistol? Holly shat that's a lot of gun in your hand!:O

[lumberjack]

Best I remember the 460 offers 45-70 power from your hand.

In kitty land I take a G20 (10mm Glock) hands down over a 6 shot 44. 16 rounds of 10mm goes a long ways further than six 44's, plus reloads are fast and don't require much dexterity (gloves/cold hands). It's also powerful enough to take white tails out to 40-50 yards.

[Blinky]

[...].... now if they start letting me hunt for humans..... especially the stupid ones.... then I'll go for the autos.:evil::D



You'll definitely need an auto... with a big pile of ammunition.

[darkstar]

Carl please enlighten me on everything i need and where to get it so that i can re load 1000 rounds of 9 mill for 50.00 bucks?
I meen, if you dont mind , ive got potato sac of casings .
And i wont pay myself 20.00 because im sure ill be ultra slow.
Proably load 50 the go shoot umm all immediatly.Then back to loading.
I have re loaded 12 gauge way back in 86.but never anything else.
I have a gun freak buddy down in atlanta that im sure will give me pointers.But man that is so cheap.
1000 rounds for 50 bucks i need to know
PLEASE:D

[Stumper]

Jerry it ain't no thang-You just have to cast your own boolits.

[Stumper]

Here ya go Doc.
http://www.vincelewis.net/60magnum.html

[Blinky]

Jerry it ain't no thang-You just have to cast your own boolits.

And if you belong to a range you can dig more lead than you'll ever use out of pistol backstops.

The RCBS multi-stage systems are really fast for reloading, especially pistol rounds. It's hard to do match grade rifle rounds in one of those though because of all the intermediate measuring and tuning steps... it's a time sink.

[okietreedude]

well fellas, I stopped into a gun store and checked things out. they showed me: barreta, glock, sprinfield, ruger sr9, and something else. I liked the way the sr9 fit my hand and I also like the external safety. the others as the guy put it 'you keep your finger out the the trigger guard, and thats your safety'. yea well, bullshat. no safety, im not as interested. plus the sr9 is smaller than the others. I ended up ordering one from my range guy tonite. should be here monday.

carl, I too would like to know how to reload 1000 rounds for $50. I have a rock chucker and some other stuff, just need to set it all up.

btw, if anyone needs 13#'s of .38sp brass and ?? of .357, I have some that Ill never use. make me an offer I cant refuse. I even have the dies to go w/ them.

[sawinredneck]

The trigger safety really is proven and does work. I was leary of it at first, but after carrying my G19 for a while I got comfortable with it very quickly. It is sound.

The 1000 rds is done on a progressive machine. Dillons is the best, but the most expensive. Lee makes one as well that seems to work alright. You're single stage can do it, just not as fast, that's what I load on BTW (a Redding). And you are shooting lead, not jacketed bullets.

Figure out where you want to get you're pratice in. If you want to shoot at the store range you may have to buy ammo from them to shoot there.

Congrats, I hope you like it!! Nothing wrong with the Rugers.

[C. Kirk]

Lsat mouth i shot a s&w .40 cal (SW40VE) was not impressed with the gun. It was top heavy when half way through the clip. The trigger was rough & hard to pull. Now the taurus 92 9mm had a solid frame with a smooth trigger pull. Weight was every even with ammo & with out ammo. Was very easy to put back on the target after each shot.

Or you could buy a deserter eagle 44 cal. haha!!!

[Skwerl]

Congrats on the purchase! A quick google search led me to this SR9 review (http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-SR9.htm) and it certainly looks like a nice piece. They say not to dry fire it without the magazine though, it results in a gritty trigger pull.

[lumberjack]

David, just remember to keep your fuggin finger off the trigger unless you're shooting.

External safeties are redundant to the 4th on something like a Glock/MP/Sigma/24/7 ect.


I reload for $70 (SEVENTY) per k paying myself $15 PER HOUR on a Dillon 650 with a primer sorter (fills the primer tubes on its own), case feeder, and bullet feeder.

1k rounds takes about 40 minutes.

I buy bullets from Precision Bullets in TX. Casting quantities sucks unless you go automated.

[okietreedude]

Brian, here is the link directly to rugers site and the sr9.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/SR9/

[squisher]

But everyone wants to know how to do it for $50! Dammit!:D

[Skwerl]

Brian, here is the link directly to rugers site and the sr9.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/SR9/

Yeah, I saw that also. But I prefer reading about it from somebody who isn't trying to sell it to me. ;)

[Banned by Squirrels]

Did anybody mention the Para Ordinance kicks ass?

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/para_warthog.jpg

[MasterBlaster]

Man, that's a beautiful firearm. Very stealthy!

[sawinredneck]

Man, that's a beautiful firearm. Very stealthy!

And semi-high capacity!!
Para designed a frame not much larger than the factory 1911 frame, that takes a double stack mag!!!
Neat guns, buddy has one! Bigger than that though:)

[okietreedude]

I understand brian, theres also a link to 6 reviews. I read 2or 3.

that warthog looks pretty compact for concealment, but the small grip Im not sure id like.

[darkstar]

Dude where do you get all the lead?
Geese im stupid so allow me that...
I cant figure it.
My best 1000 is still over 200 bucks >
Let me ask the range master haha .He prolly wouldnt tell me , untill i best him.Not far off ...;)

[okietreedude]

as for lead, stop in a tire shop. they may give/sell you the used wheel weights. melt em down and there ya go.

I got some several yrs back. the guy told me they usually dont mess w/ them till the bucket (5 gal) is full. I said I didnt need that much and took what he had. it was only 1/3 full and was probably still 20#. Its soft lead, but who cares?

[pantheraba]

as for lead, stop in a tire shop. they may give/sell you the used wheel weights. melt em down and there ya go.

I got some several yrs back. the guy told me they usually dont mess w/ them till the bucket (5 gal) is full. I said I didnt need that much and took what he had. it was only 1/3 full and was probably still 20#. Its soft lead, but who cares?

A buddy, John, and I used to cast bullets...we got the lead from a tire shop, too, by the bucketful...the owner gave it to us. John had some bars of antimony, a very shiny and hard substance. We used to mix it about 20%, I think, with the lead...it helped to keep from leading the bbl too much. Soft lead will lead the barrel after awhile.

We had a four bullet mold and cast quite a few. We did it inside the house at first, during the winter but ventilation was a problem sometimes. You don't want to breathe the fumes as you are melting the lead. We started to build a ventilation hood with fan but it was too much trouble...I finally just started buying cast bullets by the 500..much simpler. We were feeding Ingrams at the time...a 9mm and a .380. Both could use the same bullet, .355 diameter as I remember it, and those young'uns were hungry...the .380 shot 20 rounds per second.

[Stumper]

Dark, I too am baffled by Carl's assertion. I know of no sources from which to buy the bullets at his total cost let alone paying for powder and primers.
As Gary suggested-buying commercial cast bullets can keep one shooting for pretty cheap.

[The Branch Doctor]

Well, all the pistol talk yesterday inspired me to blow off work and go shooting.:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9g6m

[Stumper]

The URL contained a malformed video ID

[The Branch Doctor]

Oops. How about this,
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/U9g6mUz3v1M&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/U9g6mUz3v1M&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Stumper]

The most important plinker's line in human history- "Let's clean up our mess."8)

[The Branch Doctor]

Yes sir it is. I love the fact that I can drive 30 min west and I'm in National Forest land aka heaven! I cherish that "eden" is in my back yard so I respect it. It's a simple concept... bring it in, bring it out.;)

Anyway, we had a hoot of a time! A lot of cheering and giggling.... good times.:D

And for the record, if any of you get a chance to blow up a couple of large BBQ sauce with an assortment of guns..... I HIGHLY RECOMEND IT!!!!!!!:D:D:D

[lumberjack]

Gary, a point to make is lead that is too hard will lead far more than lead that is too soft.

Buying in bulk is key. With powder and primers it's a must with the retarded hazmat fee.

www.precisionbullets.com

I shoot the 9mm 115gr. The current price per case is $58.86 per K, but then factor in the $3-4 discount per K because I buy in bulk. The coating really is as good as they claim.

Now that's $55 per k in bullets.
Titegroup is $8 per k @ 4.6gr per case
CCI 500 primers are $21.5 per k
Cases are $2.33 per k figuring on 6 firings.

Now we're up to $86.83 per k, not counting cleaning the cases, which is next to nothing. Add 40 minutes to run them through the press, 15 minutes for o'shits and 5 minutes per k to clean them (cleaner can handle 2k per batch, main time spent is dumping the mix into the seperator and turning the handle).

For a grand total of $101.83 per k in today's prices. The only thing that doesn't cover is shipping and hazmat, which depending on your sources you might not have to pay, it's included in the bullet's cost. I can buy powder and primers at the matches in bulk and skip shipping and haz mat.

The reloading setup makes it practical, bulk makes it possible.

[lumberjack]

TBD, I'd recommend different hearing protection as those aren't very effective. I wear roll up and insert plugs, 33db reduction rating.

If I'm shooting near something where a super mag (460/500) can reverb, I wear muffs as well.

[The Branch Doctor]

TBD, I'd recommend different hearing protection as those aren't very effective. I wear roll up and insert plugs, 33db reduction rating.

If I'm shooting near something where a super mag (460/500) can reverb, I wear muffs as well.

No shit? Cool, I'll do that. Thanks LJ.:D

[lumberjack]

Did anybody mention the Para Ordinance kicks ass?

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/para_warthog.jpg

The Warthog is a double stack, unless you get the slim version. Double stack means it's a good bit thicker. Close to the G20/21 frame size in glocks, or a full sizes width but more squarish instead of an oval.
How about this? 9mm, 9+1 (single stack) 30oz loaded. Comes standard with night sights.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Gun/DSC05297.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Gun/DSC05302.jpg


Accurate to boot. I carry it when I'm in a tux or suit and need to carry in a concealed shoulder holster. Excluding the thumb safety it's only .925" wide at the slide and 1.105" wide at the grip. The J frame is 1.320" wide at the wheel, 1.215" at the butt, which can cause my arm to rub the suit funny, making things more obvious.

To qualify 1.105" on the grip, it's as thick as my thumb (actually follows it's profile fairly well with the grip pannels. Grip pannels off and the actual frame is as wide as my index finger.

[darkstar]

Carl thanx for all that info im on it.

And where can i get that sweet spring field pictured above , i love it.
Classic look in a small package and if you say its accurate ill take your word for it.
I have Benton shooting supply close to my home pretty nice Gun store ill call them first and get a price.
How many does she hold ?
Im so stoked because at those reloading prices i can really start having some more fun.
Can you reccomend a book on reloading ?
Where are you buying powder?
Seems like one company would just sale all of the stuff needed for re loading ,are there laws against that ?

[Skwerl]

So Carl, what you're saying is that your $50 per 1000 round ammo price is really over $100 per 1000 rounds, plus shipping, hazmat and your time? So which is it, $50 or $100+? I'm confused here. :|:

[darkstar]

I didnt get the math either but chit its so dang close who cares .
I need to reload , amn i didn know it was that much cheaper.
Why is it so much cheaper?

[okietreedude]

as for it being cheaper, by the math above ($100/1000), at 50 rds per box, its about 1/2 the cost of store bought. What you dont consider is your time and what thats worth.

[lumberjack]

For {SNIP} sake people, I said the prices LAST YEAR was $70 per K including my LABOR.

Now it's up $30 per k to $101 or whatknot INCLUDING MY LABOR AND WHAT I CAN GET THE COMPONETS FOR.

Dark, a good place to get powder and primers is www.powdervalleyinc.com

[darkstar]

Guys i think average store bought 9 mill ammo cost about 400.00 per thousand

[lumberjack]

You can get WWB for $200+ tax from Wal Mart, my cost (for plinking ammo) is normally half what wally world charges, INCLUDING my labor.

[darkstar]

What is WWB ?
Here wally charges 20 bucks for winchester 9 mm luger full metal jacket 115 gr.
The good stuff is at least twice that from local shooting supply.
But im plenty impressed with the wally world paper punching winchesters, seems accurate and it doesent stuff up my Glock.And it will put a hole in something.
Wally's .22 is absolute junk though its Federal .36 gr copper plated .Freaking dangerous.
U get one dud per every five ina bad pack.
Some packs i get no duds at all though

[Stumper]

WWB= Winchester White Box

[Blinky]

It's been 5 years or so but I used to get IMI 9mm (comparable to WWB) for about $150/1000 at gun shows.

If you want good .22LR ammo try Fiocchi Supermatch. It's pricey but I get 5/8" groups at 50 meters with a worn out Ruger 10/22 and and 3/8" groups with a Kimber SVT... 10 shot groups... good stuff, extremely consistent.

[lumberjack]

WWB is a fine plinking load, fwiw.

[okietreedude]

From Bass pro shop: http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_53416____SearchResults

a box of 250 for 54.99 thats 216/1000. by the time you spend your time reloading, i imagine its about the same. however, if your shooting thousands of rounds regularly, the reloading may turn in cheaper. reloading is 1/2 this...not bad.

[lumberjack]

What's your time worth? At that price I could reload 1k @ paying myself $130 an hour. I bill less for hourly tree work, more for stump grinding. Then again, most would say that both are harder than pulling a lever 1k times.

If you're reloading on a single stage, you better enjoy it, because it's going to suck for most folks.

A Dillion 1050 might be cool, but my current setup is fairly sweet and not hard to justify.

[Blinky]

[...]

If you're reloading on a single stage, you better enjoy it, because it's going to suck for most folks.



You can say that again, but for rifle loads you can't beat the precision of a Forster Coax... although most of the work is done off the press. It's absurd how much time you can spend just sizing the neck. It wasn't bad when I had the whole rig so I could sit in the family room and watch TV while I loaded but it was hell on my old eyes. Thank god for digital calipers.

[lumberjack]

Yeah, the 650 sucks for precision stuff. :lol: But for actuall BR stuff, the CoAx would take the lead for sure.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Gun/Carlfinalzero14shotgroupbottomle-1.jpg


There was paper seperating the groups, but when I ran it though a scanner the rollers tore it. 10 shots, getting sighted in. The "flyer" was the first shot, adjusted and shot a 4 shot group in the low .4's, adjusted again and shot a group of 5 into the low .3's.

[sotc]

The "flyer" was the first shot, adjusted and shot a 4 shot group in the low .4's, adjusted again and shot a group of 5 into the low .3's.

i figured it was when some leggy gal sashayed by:D

[Blinky]

That's a damn nice group to be dialing in. Is that at 100 yds? What round?

[lumberjack]

Yeah, 100 yards. 308. Arborworks has that rifle, presently.

[arborworks1]

Taking it out to the range this weekend, actually. Getting kind of attached to the damn thing. Thinking about adding a silencer.

[okietreedude]

Picked mine up tonite afterwork. Dam nice looking. Im hoping to give it a good cleaning tomorrow and take it out to shoot friday or sat.

[okietreedude]

well, i shot a clip thru it today after the unsuccessful deer hunt. sweet shooter it is.

I ended up in OKC at the sil's house for turkey and afterwards went to bass pro shop to kill some time. Picked up a 250 ct.box of remington ammo.

I am still considering the reloading thing, but Im going to have to do a lot of shooting first to justify the cost of a progressive reloader. Ive got a single stage rcbs, dont have the time to spend hrs on reloading.

[lumberjack]

FWIW your rounds are coming from a "magazine", not a "clip".

[fallguy]

Lumberjack what is the load you are useing in that 308? I am having a tough time getting anything to go 5 shots into a 1" in the rifle I am putting together for my kid.

[lumberjack]

Lapua brass and a 155 Lapua Scenar. CCI BR2 Primers, 46.X gr of Varget seated to I believe 2.800".

What rifle are you building for your kid?

[fallguy]

Remington 700 SPS. I had the barrel cut to 20" It has a Leupold 2 X 7 scope on it. It is his deer rifle for tree stand hunting. He wanted something like the old Remington 600's.

[lumberjack]

Unless you have a freak of nature the SPS isn't free floated. If you use a sling, changes in sling tension effect the barrel differently causing a drastic POA/POI change. If you're shooting with bags or bipods, changes in your forward/downward pressure (don't try to free recoil 308, doesn't work) can cause a similar change.

Don't over clean the barrel either, my rifle has been cleaned 3-4 times in 1500 or so shots, excluding the time it endo'ed into the mud at a competition. The .3" and .4" groups I posted were with 3-400 rounds down the tube. Shoot till accuracy drops off and then clean it.

For gods sake adjust the trigger if you haven't already. If you need help just let me know. If your glove is too fat to fit in the trigger guard, get thinner gloves of even better, a shooter's mit. My trigger is around 2lbs, about as low as you can get with the average stock trigger and light enough for me to keep sub 1/2MOA @ 300 yards.

Make sure the barrel's crown is mint and square. It really doesn't matter what angle it is at (target/recessed/ect) as long as the transition is crisp and even.

See if you can get a limb saver recoil pad to replace the original pad. I know the recoil isn't bad, but it sure doesn't hurt accuracy to spread the recoil over a longer time (the pad squishing).

Lastly, are you capable of shooting sub MOA with other rifles? 2-7 isn't alot of magnification, gotta have a firm grip on the basics.

The only stuff I haven't loaded that went through my rifle was Federal Powershok, 175 grain I believe. It shoot MOA or better as well out to 200 yards (as far as I shot it out too).

[fallguy]

I have a Ruger 77 in 25-06 that I have gotten sub 1" groups for the last 25 years. I have tweaked the trigger. The barrel has a recessed target crown cut on it now (nice and square). I did a over all chamber length measurement it came up 3.010 it seems to be to much free bore for a 308. Was thinking of having the barrel removed from the action and cut down and the chamber re-cut. What is the OAL on you rifle?

[lumberjack]

OAL on the rifle, or the chamber? Either way I'm not sure. With the stock folded it's down to 32" or so. The chamber has a longer lead than SAMI, but it's not caused a big problem, I want to say it's around 2.9X I believe.

My rounds feed from a magazine so to insure everything goes happily, I just load to 2.8X" generally.

3.010" is long. Try Serria Match Kings, which aren't for hunting but tend to not mind the jump.

3.010" means you'd load a 155 Scenar to 3.1-.2" (I'm guessing), wayyy long (to get the ogive closer). That's as long as a 30'06, I doubt the neck of the 308 has enough length to allow it.

On the plus side, you won't have to trim brass for a long while!

Freebore isn't that important on a hunting rifle, so long as it's consistent. If you do get the chamber set back, have them cut a standard print SAMI 308 chamber and you'll be fine.

[thattreeguy]

wow some gun loadin folks in here,
i like the old beretta 92 sf,and yes i have the pac grips, its old it shoots well, i do like those lil walthers,
i'm nt into how much grain to how many fps, but a good shot in the face takes the fire out of most people not all of us want to drag the 357 out from between the truck seats, or the 223 out of the chipper toolbox but stand ready to when needed

[Paul B]

If I felt I needed a 357 in the front seat and another firearm in the back of the truck to get through a work day, I think I would move somewheres else.

[Newfie]

If I felt I needed a 357 in the front seat and another firearm in the back of the truck to get through a work day, I think I would move somewheres else.

Ya think?:D I've never quite understood the need to go through life armed.

[Paul B]

makes me think of the scene in MIB, when the alien dude pulls a gun on the tow truck driver and the tow truck driver pulls some big ass revolver out of his pants. I could see the potential for armed conflict in that job but in tree care? I would hope it isnt a major workplace hazard.

[okietreedude]

maybe in a line clearance situation...some pissed off homeowner comes out toting a shotgun, a concealed piece may come in handy.

as for everyday work, I dont think so either, unless you consider a car jacking situation (pickup truck - not large truck).

while im highly considering getting a concealed carry liscense, Im not anticipating carrying 24/7. Its mainly to be legal while having it in possesion if its in a pack or something. I can carry it w/o being illegal.

[darkstar]

Well seriously, this is the truth.
I was up ina giant hackberry over near the prodjecs, the hood.
Anyhow this skinny lil black dude came out and started pointing what looked to be a .38 snub nose at me .
Seriously and as i was pretty tied in and ina really nasty spot i couldnt really get out of his line of sight.
He started saying you be GBI better get the fu$% out of hear and do bea spying on me.
My boss was this huge ass irish man and he quickly produced his pistol and told the little N%^^& to shut the F up or hed plant a hole in his Black a%% head.
So the black guy got really cocky and climbed on his roof really quickly and then he had a very good line of sight on me.I was only about 23 and was enjoying workibg for my boss who shouted at me to keep climbing and ignore the black guy.
My boss called 911 and i hid as best i could behind stubs and such all the while the black guy kept waving his gun and shouting that i was GBI.
Swat got there really fast and he disappeared and we got the tree job done .
I vowed never to work in the hood again and i havent.

[pantheraba]

Dark, that is a truly great story..."ignore the black guy"...hahaha...your boss was hilarious.

[darkstar]

Yeah my boss wasent scared in the least.The guy pointed the gun right at his chest and he just turned his back on him walked over to the truck and got his gun.
I was terrified beyond reason.
I just didt want to die that way.
Seemed very real to me.

[thattreeguy]

i dont need to be armed like that daily, but some of our sites do require a lil insurance once in a while

but my point is that berretta make a fine economical 9 mm

[thattreeguy]

it really sucks to have the cartels in my back wwods

[Stumper]

Mike, I know you have knee problems but when did your arms fall off? You honestly don't miss them?

I don't carry because I live in fear. I carry because the world is a screwed up place. If I should find myself in the middle of a monumental bit of human stupidity I hope that I would try to help protect innocent people That might be easier to do armed than not.

[Newfie]

Mike, I know you have knee problems but when did your arms fall off? You honestly don't miss them?

Goodness gracious.:D

[pantheraba]

If I should find myself in the middle of a monumental bit of human stupidity I hope that I would try to help protect innocent people That might be easier to do armed than not.

I agree with Stumper...it happens out there...you can be a sheep or a wolf.

San Ysidro (McDonald's) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Oliver_Huberty

Luby's in TX (restaurant) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Hennard

[cutitup]

I carry too but it really digs into my side when I have my climbing harness on - not to mention it's hard to get too!:|:

[CurSedVoyce]

[QUOTE=pantheraba;284631]I agree with Stumper...it happens out there...you can be a sheep or a wolf.

Yeah, look what just happened for the holidays. "Attention shoppers, we have GSW on isle 9, please wait for assistance.......":what:
I prefer wolf ty ;)

[thattreeguy]

ive had my run ins with stupid people and my 9mm has saved me from becoming a victim before, most recently my straight blade i keep on my neck saved me...i know out here
the law isnt coming to help you, they probabally wont ever find your body better safe than sorry


keep in mind im cutting 10.5 mi thats 1.5 hrs from anything civilized or near phone reception, 3hrs from home and if you need medical aid ,ya have to stretcher the person out in to a pickup and hope to meet ems about 45 min into your trip to town

an armed society is a polite society

[fallguy]

Thanks for the input Lumberjack. I have been out of town with the kid deer hunting. The black powder season started here on Saturday. He got a nice doe this morning. First time he tried black powder hunting.

[pantheraba]

an armed society is a polite society

Heinlein -- Lazarus Long