Types of undercuts

[squisher]

Ok I mentioned this in another thread about wanting some discussion on the types of undercuts and why one would choose one over the other.

Humboldt- Is what I was taught in the bush and I find it's very effective for production work. Easy to get a flush butt that the buckerman likes but in actual fact isn't nearly as safe as a stepped butt espescially in a bush falling situation. The humboldt is also alot easier to slide your 'pie' out of as gravity wants to help you out. To me I see it's advantages as being for production work and since switching to residential work I find I never use it anymore. I though have really some limited knowledge of this undercut and would like to hear more about it and why it might be chosen over a traditional or a open face in a residential situation.

Traditional- Is what I use on a day to day basis now in residential work. I find it easier to cut a nice wide open face this way as (I hope I can describe this right) you start higher to make a larger face whereas with the humboldt you'd have to start lower to make a larger face. Higher puts me in a nicer position and seeing as how I'm not worried about stumpage rates I don't mind having a higher stump. I mostly will use a really large(anglewise) traditional face cut to keep my hinge intact as long as possible and relying on proper gunning to place my tree exactly rather than relying on any 'steering' during the backcut. Traditional has been my undercut of choice in residential work.

Open- I never use the open undercut never have I don't think maybe ever. I'd very much like to hear from those that do. To me it seems like it would be harder to get your cuts to line-up evenly/properly as consistently as with the traditional or humboldt.

Of course on any undercut I'm aiming for a 1/3 depth which would be altered depending on a number of things. Size of tree could come into play and of course lean. And I'm always aiming at having all of my cuts meet up evenly no bypass/dutchmen and a nice even backcut so I have a straight hinge.


I'm far from a highly experienced faller but I enjoy cutting and find it fascinating how much control you can gain by knowing a few of the basics.

[lumberjack]

Also angling the floor gets you more angle while cutting more against the grain, which is more efficent than trying to get 80* from just the top cut.

[squisher]

I'm not quite following you there Carl, could you expand a bit for some of the slower here like myself?:|:

[lumberjack]

Making the top cut 40* and the bottom cut 30* is faster than one cut being 70*.

[Wagnaw]

...I like a good open face myself.

[top hopper]

...I like a good open face myself.

rarely needed though

[lumberjack]

Me too!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/Clayborn%20Oak/06299288.jpg

[lumberjack]

rarely needed though

I agree with that also.

[MasterBlaster]

That's a crazy underbed, I'd look pissed off too if I had to cut it.

You musta been bored that day. :drink:

[sotc]

i started with the humbolt also. i have migrated to conventional also for the most part. if im up in the tree i tend to use the humbolt alot as it seems easier and i back bar it alot. open face i rarely use and when i do i still make a level cut first, a botom cut second and a top cut last.

[lumberjack]

That was mainly for the picture.

With the 088 it wasn't that big of a deal.

[MasterBlaster]

But why?

[Cedarkerf]

45 degrees seems to be used here most situations70-80 seems excessive but im open to new info

[Mr. Sir]

I'm sure it's just the camera angle, but it looks like you cut about 80% into the tree.

[lumberjack]

MB, I only had a 1/2" rope with me, wanted to move the fulcrum back. Also figured it'd make a cool picture.

Not quite half way through it, Brett.

[MasterBlaster]

Also figured it'd make a cool picture.


I can dig it!

[Jamin Mayer]

That is a nice sized tree Carl. Oak? DBH?

[NeTree]

For most things, anything over 30 degrees is a waste of time. Once it's committed, it's going.

[Stumper]

For most things, anything over 30 degrees is a waste of time. Once it's committed, it's going.

Sorta like an Odarnit voter.

[woodworkingboy]

I only use a double angled wide face if I think the face I've put in is too small and just want to open it up more. It's seems easier to remove a bit off the bottom by angling up with the saw. I'll use it on a tree with excessive back lean as well. Normally I use a regular straight bottom cut and angle the top.

On occasion, I want every bit of the log for woodwork, or maybe want the butt to slide off the hinge and gain some distance, or when falling uphill and want to try and get a softer landing, then I'll use a Humboldt.

One thing I've been doing lately is leaving a gap at the hinge when the lay is narrow. It seems to give better holding quality. I find it's easier to put in a gap with the standard face.

[Cobleskill]

I don't get what you mean by a gap in the hinge.

[woodworkingboy]

The point where the upper and lower face cuts meet isn't a sharp angle. It's a flat face done by nipping at the corner with the tip of the saw, or boring in from the side when you want a large gap on large trees. The hinge wood tends to fold better without breaking, though your species may vary.

Another great tip I learned from Jerry's text.

[TheTreeSpyder]

i'd have several uses. Mechanically it gives a wider sweep b4 close; especially without dutching.

Mostly, i'd use wideface for climbing, then some for felling even bucking. i'd use the wider sweep in climbing for rigging and hinging sideways especially. In felling, to give softer landing and less spring poles (may put one at trunk though!), especially if trying to crank or arm wrestle tree down (pulling with rope all the way / almost all the way down while tree fights on hinge), across or down hill etc.

[lumberjack]

Jamin, it was only about 5-5.5' DBH, red oak. You can see it's buttresses flared pretty good, the tip of the bar is resting on the far side of the notch's floor cut. 6' bar, fwiw.

Before:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/Clayborn%20Oak/d0483567.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/Clayborn%20Oak/1cb2842d.jpg

[woodworkingboy]

Blimey! Was that tree growing near an unusual source of high radiation? Perhaps an old landfill under the house?

[Mr. Sir]

Most of the time, I'll use the traditional face cut; flat bottom cut and 45* - 60* top cut. For me it's just faster and easier to line up. I can do both cuts from one side of the tree, usually, and line up the lay with the gunning sights.

For a tight lay, I'll use a 70* - 80* open face for accuracy.

I'll use a Humboldt when flopping large trunks to keep the top from hitting first and causing a huge divit. With a traditional face, the top tends to hit the ground before the butt, not so with a Humboldt.

And FWIW, I almost NEVER use a face cut when doing crane lifts. Maybe one or two out of a hundred.

[stig]

Carl, it's interesting that you'd use a 70(?) inch bar on something anyone over here would cut with a 25- 30 inch.
But I guess we have already covered that territory.

As for the angle of the face cut, I don't know about american trees, (well, I do, but not that much!) but cutting an european ash, you need a high angle face, or it'll close before the hinge is torn and cause the log to split.
Any other species, I'll stick to 45 degrees.

[MasterBlaster]

Carl, it's interesting that you'd use a 70(?) inch bar on something anyone over here would cut with a 25- 30 inch.

I'm amazed I've gotten along all this time with just a mere 36", LOL.

[stig]

Butch, the longest bar I've ever owned in 30 years of logging was a 37 inch.
Until I had to cut this one: www.skoventreprenoeren.dk
That called for bigger hardware.

[MasterBlaster]

Nice!

http://skoventreprenoeren.dk.linux17.wannafind.dk/wp-content/sk_promo.jpg

[lumberjack]

6'=72" Cutting that tree down and bucking it would flat out suck with a 30" bar.

MB likes to give me a hard time about that bar, but since a customer bought it for me and I've used it removing 2 trees with a combined cost of over $11k, I can live with his razzing. I bought 3 chains with the bar, haven't sharpened them yet, and still have an unused chain.


I have a 21", 41" and the 72" bar for that power head. Since I was working alone to flop, buck, and load the trunk, and a heat index around 40.5-41C, I decided I didn't want to muck around with cutting from both sides, rolling it over and cutting some more ect. Just lay the big bitch on top of the log, pin the throttle, and let the saw eat while I try to stay cool.

With the power that saw has it didn't take long to get this crotch into manageable sized pieces for the front end loader to load into the roll off. I cut below the crotch and through the middle and ended up with 3 or 4 pieces that were reasonable to load.

That's an 440 in the crotchs, btw.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/Clayborn%20Oak/5351f579.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/Clayborn%20Oak/f07b2768.jpg


But I'm crazzzzzzzy like that I guess.

[sotc]

nice video stig, we share the same bucking methods anyway:)

[lumberjack]

:O I didn't see that the first time I loaded the page, only the bonsi and thought you were making a joke.

Comparing what's use for timber harvesting and urban removals are way different beasts. I carried the saw about 20' from the truck to the stump on flat ground :lol:.

I removed a 7' oak trunk (had been topped down to the big wood and died) about 1/2 a mile from the oak pictured above with a 41" bar. Maybe there is something in the water, Jay.

[stig]

[QUOTE=lumberjack;276411]:O I didn't see that the first time I loaded the page, only the bonsi and thought you were making a joke.

/QUOTE]

Well, the bonsai is a joke ( it's a giant seqouia, by the way)

The text says: no job too big, nor too small.

The big tree is a 14,3 ton solid elm burl, sold to a german veneer factory for 15000$. They cut it into about a square mile worth of 0,6 mil veneer for BMW.
BMW use burly elm for inlay in their top models, to distinguish them from the english manufacturers, who all use walnut.
So if you spring for a 700 series Beemer, you will most likely be driving around with a slice of my tree.

[Bounce]

Having gotten my formal training in the Forest Service, I like to use the conventional cut with approx 45 degree angle for most of my work. Like Squisher, I feel like I can be more accurate with the conventional. I only use the Humboldt cut on real big wood where I want gravity's help removing the pie wedge and when falling a tree uphill. However, when I'm cutting a top out while climbing, I've started to use the bore cut technique more often with a 70-90 degree angle. To get this I make the floor cut at a 45 and also the top at a 45. That way the hinge wood break when the top is perpendicular to the trunk and prevents the spar from moving very much.

[NeTree]

But doesn't that take all the fun out of it?

[NeTree]

Carl, why didn't you take the limbs over the roof first?

[MasterBlaster]

Not doing that was a big mistake, but I bet he noticed that later. I woulda roped it all, on the ground by noon.

[NeTree]

Butch, I was thinking a) Better from a rigging standpoint, by far and b) Get working out over the hot roof done first.

[MasterBlaster]

I did what Carl did once, only once. I was thinking like a checkers player, not a chess champion.

[Mr. Sir]

Same here, Butch, on one of my first big removals as a crew leader/foreman. I cut all the easy stuff first; lots of snap cuts and drop into the yard. Then realized, gee, how am I going to get those limbs over the roof. Ended up hiring a crane to finish the tree; major ass chewing from the boss, but I NEVER did that again!

[NeTree]

Definitely nicer to have a crotch out over the LZ to use, then to have to butt-hitch everything and tag-line it away.

Then again, looking at the branch on the roof... hi mighta just bombed it all onto the roof.

:P

[MasterBlaster]

but I NEVER did that again!

I bet we've all done it at least once.

[sotc]

:rockhard:

[brendonv]

House on left. Just to razz Carl.:P

[lumberjack]

I cut and tossed the lower brush from the lift. Then I rigged the bigger brush and limb wood from the blue rope you see hanging down. The porty was in the tree so all the ground dude had to do was untie the chunk. I fed out slack as it swung across the house, normally landing the piece in the yard or trailer in one motion.

MB, you forgot to say you could have it on the ground by lunch either climbing, bucketing, or craning.

I had about 30 hours on that job and cleared bit over $90 an hour. I might not have done it "right", but I'm ok with that.

[MasterBlaster]

MB, you forgot to say you could have it on the ground by lunch either climbing, bucketing, or craning.

Pick one, it wouldn't matter. Of course the crane would be quickest, climbing the slowest. The main thing that slows me down is the ground crew, not the tree.


I might not have done it "right", but I'm ok with that.


No. You must PAY. :/:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/46818144_0e0284fd11.jpg

:lol:

[brendonv]

Shit, that gave me the chills!

[JIML]

Only thing i use an open face on is a hard leaner we are winching back. Don't want the face to close too soon.
Last one I used that on was a black locust. 60 foot tall or so, 18" dbh. Leaned hard towards the line, Just set a rope 2/3 the way up, put the winch on it, face cut, back cut and walk away and watch the guys wear themselves out on the winch...

[Burnham]

I don't cut for scale, nor production of any variety...most often it's hazard tree felling. So I use a conventional face almost all of the time, and I cut standing up, leaving a higher stump but allowing myself a quicker exit from the stump if need be.

Besides, starting that darn sloping cut for the face of a Humbolt always throws all those nasty chips in my face :D.

[squisher]

Besides, starting that darn sloping cut for the face of a Humbolt always throws all those nasty chips in my face :D.

:lol: Sure it does.:D

[GASoline71]

Loggers lunch... ;)

Gary

[gf beranek]

I don't like high stumps, but sometimes you gotta make'm. That's just the way it is. You got to be smarter than the rules.

Conventional or Humboldt? It's more often just a matter of personal preference. I think. But there always comes a time when you have to apply one or the other in the hopes that it really works out the way it's supposed to. There's subtleties with openings, depths and employing snipes and boring and modifying this and that. When it works you pat yourself on the back. When it doesn't you just say, "ah shucks, that was a big waste of time." And then go to the next one.

That's where John Ciro would look at the same tree and just ring it and run and then buck up the chunks.

[Gord]

I thought of the Ronin scene reading this thread, where the guy asks Robert De Niro's character what kind of gun he favors. He replies "lt's a toolbox. You put the tools in for the job."

I think a person's goal should be to assess every cut individually and tailor the cut appropriately. Not thinking "should I use a humboldt or a conventional" but " how long do I want the hinge to hold on for" and " is there a danger that the butt will want to kick off the stump." And many more questions...

[squisher]

That is what this thread is about. Care to expound on your theories?

Ronin's one of my favorite movies don't make me ambush you with a coffee cup.;)

[Paul B]

He replies "lt's a toolbox. You put the tools in for the job."


ha, what color is the boathouse at Herford?

[wiley_p]

ha, what color is the boathouse at Herford?

How the f... should I know?:)

[woodworkingboy]

I've worked with quite a few different people, who have abundant enough experiences at felling, to make their own decisions about how to approach different situations. They all made or make a living at it, and aren't limping around too damaged. Partially schooled possibly, but it seems that the only real way to progress in ability, is to try things by yourself, and to develop your own nuances and instincts, especially if being fast, along with safe, is a motivation. It isn't just the felling part, but just about every aspect of the work....pulling out trees from a jam, how the load in the truck gets secured, etc. etc. I see that no two guys do it the same.

[Cobleskill]

Carl,
What was wrong with that oak?

[MasterBlaster]

I'm betting it was messing with the foundation.

[thattreeguy]

i like the humboldt if i want the piece to stay closer to the tree,
conventional if i want it to fly away a bit,
and open faced if i really want it to hang on and be darn near horizontal when it pops off the hinge,
its been awhile since i read GB's books but i believe there's some theory in there that might be worth visiting
Ps...columbia helicopter is on the slope above my house in nanning creek right now, about every 2 minutes sweet mrs vertol comes back for a turn...sounds freaking great

[rbtree]

ha, what color is the boathouse at Herford?

same as yer heifer?:P

[squisher]

I've worked with quite a few different people, who have abundant enough experiences at felling, to make their own decisions about how to approach different situations. They all made or make a living at it, and aren't limping around too damaged. Partially schooled possibly, but it seems that the only real way to progress in ability, is to try things by yourself, and to develop your own nuances and instincts, especially if being fast, along with safe, is a motivation. It isn't just the felling part, but just about every aspect of the work....pulling out trees from a jam, how the load in the truck gets secured, etc. etc. I see that no two guys do it the same.

I hear what you're saying and my groundsman is a certified faller with over 40 years of sawing experience, I myself am no stranger to the saw being practically born with one. Still I started this thread to try and learn more about undercuts and why people would choose one over another in any given situation. Feeling out The House so that I may glean even the smallest tool, trick or insight to add to my arsenal.

It is definetly not a thread about how to load a truck!:P

[Stumper]

So you are not familiar with the truckloading undercut? A very small gapped face and a series of kerfs below the floor so that the log can fall over,gradually crushing the kerfs and crash into the truck gently.

[squisher]

Pics or it never happened.:P

[Stumper]

Ain't never happening to MY trucks!

[Al Smith]

Ain't never happening to MY trucks! Well it goes without saying that it's best to keep your equipment out of range of a falling tree . A certain Ontarioian ,now missing in the Yukon can most likely attest to that fact .:P You know maybe he should have had the name "squisher" because I think he has the record for doing just that .

[Jonseredbred]

The only undercut I care about is the one that keeps my competition starving.:lol:

[woodworkingboy]

I like the undercut where when the tree goes over, you say to yourself, "Now isn't that a thing of beauty". About once a month it seems.

[sotc]

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[TheTreeSpyder]

unfreakin'believable!

also, If it was hinged, it could have gone over backwards when line let go; especially with slanted backcut IMLHO..

[Dave Shepard]

Well, that's one way to flatten the hell out of your truck.:O