Barber chair

[woodworkingboy]

Had a situation come up today, where a relatively large pine was off it's stump and leaning against a Chestnut. The only way i could flop it was to cut the chestnut, whose limb was badly bowed from the weight. I knew the Chestnut was going to barber chair, and it seemed like no matter how I cut it.

I put a very small face in and popped it from the back, trying to stay as far away as possible. The result is over in the work picture's thread I just posted, barber chair with a capital B. I expected it and got out fast...it worked out OK. I was confused a bit as how to cut the holding tree in a situation like this. I don't think it wise to cut it like a heavy head leaner, where in this case due to the extreme weight, boring in behind the hinge is likely going to blow the whole thing apart and also probably trap the saw.

Should have probably chained the tree if I had a chain at the job...that's all I can think of.

Can you guys offer any advice? Thanks.

Jay

[MasterBlaster]

Other than binding it? Gotta 48" bar? :evil:

[Skwerl]

Read Burnham's thread about the Coos Bay cut. :D

[woodworkingboy]

I guess you mean that you ought to be backing up when cutting. :cry: Yep, I hear that.

[woodworkingboy]

No Coos Bay in this situation, is my logic. I think the options are limited.

[lumberjack]

The last time I had a heavily loaded tree, I dropped a 30" pine into a 10-12" pine that I didn't see. It was plenty far away to allow a stupendus amount of tension to be built up in the wood.

I cut a notch that might have been 1" deep, if that (saw was already starting to bind). I touched the backside of the tree with the saw wide open and then ran like hell.

[MasterBlaster]

http://www.freewebs.com/thesuffering/dynamite.zip_thumbnail1.jpg74177245-F5A0-458F-863FE15002204420.jpgLarge.jpg

[sotc]

so hard to tell in pics whats going on

[woodworkingboy]

All good responses so far :)

[NeTree]

I try to avoid the RLH method by stuffing a tiny notch in, and then boring in quarters from about 2" behind the hinge outward.

[GASoline71]

Coos Bay cut all the way Jay... Was in the same kinda situation awhile back... A big Hemlock leanin' on a fairly good sized Alder...

Worked flawlessly. :)

Gary

[stig]

One way to avoid getting your bar pinched while boring the tree is to use the somewhat unorthodox tecnique of boring first, then making the undercut.
On heavy leaners with soft , easily compressable wood, this tecnique can be a way out.
Bore through the tree in the middle of the trunk, then make the undercut. Take care not to get pinched by making 2-3 parrallel cuts. Make sure to make the undercut close enough to the borecut, that the hinge doesn't get too thick. When the undercut is in, fall the tree from the backside.
Of course you have to be ready to get the hell out of Dodge, when the backstrap goes, but the tree won't barberchair.

[Bounce]

I like MB's idea better. Reminds me of the chapter in Gerry's book on how to top trees using explosives. More fun for sure!

[woodworkingboy]

Thanks guys....guess I'm underestimating the amount of wood that will keep the tree from splitting apart if boring through. NeTree's bore with delicacy sounds good.

Stig, I think that in most cases, a heavy head leaner doesn't have near the tension of a tree heavy loaded with another big one, but obviously there are exceptions. Like Carl mentioned as well, in dealing with the chetnut, it wanted to pinch the bar after a face cut of about an inch, was just on the borderline of splitting apart on it's own accord without help from a saw. I was thinking, well maybe if I just look at it long enough that would happen.

After reading the posts, I'd be willing to try boring in behind the face if a similar situation comes up....make a good study.

I do like the Coos Bay for head leaners...great method.

[Skwerl]

I think I'd be much less hesitant to nip the sides (Coos Bay) with no notch rather than trying to bore out the center of a notch trying to pinch.

[JIML]

24" bar, get it started, one hand on the saw, the other already leaving the scene... head for the hills!

[GASoline71]

I think I'd be much less hesitant to nip the sides (Coos Bay) with no notch rather than trying to bore out the center of a notch trying to pinch.

I usually use the Coos Bay with a notch...

Gary

[Gord]

another option is to beavertail the sides, kinda of coos bay method I guess. I watched it used with success on this hangup.

[lumberjack]

Nice picture.

To me, that's more of a conventional notch with the quarter cuts that Eric and you mentioned mentioned, since a Coos doesn't have the conventional hinge, and that should follow the hinge fairly closely.

It does look like that would take the benefits of the Coos (more wood so it's stronger in compression/less likely to pinch) and make it more palatable of an option when more precision is required, but can't leave a back strap due to compression.

[NeTree]

Gord, thanks for the pic.. .that was exactly what I was referring to by boring in quarters.

[woodworkingboy]

The three stacked trees is a cool photo....shet happens

Gord's drawing looks like a good method. I don't know that I'd be inclined to sock the bar into the back-cut. I understand the get it cut quick, thought, but it just might be good to nip at it from the back with the forward part of the bar, if the tree is almost ready to break from the weight.

I think a difference between a heavy leaner, and a loaded from the back one, is that a leaner is going to be increasing tension on the back as it starts to fall...more fall = greater tension = possible barber chair beginning.

With a loaded tree, the tension is already maxed out pretty much, before you start to cut. If you sock the bar in, you might not be in the best position if the barber chair starts...both human and saw.

[stig]

Gord. that method is similar to the scandinavian so called "golden triangle"
You make two undercuts on the forward faces instead of boring them out.
Then you cut the remaining triangle of wood from behind.
It works like the Coos bay, but here the advantage is that as you cut forward the wood holding the tree is reduced rapidly because of ist triangular shape.
We use that one one big hardwoods that have been knocked into a heavy lean by a storm.

[MasterBlaster]

Which way does the tree fall?

[lumberjack]

To the right.

[MasterBlaster]

The dickins you say.

[lumberjack]

It's how he explained the picture, so yeah.

[JamesTX]

So, why's a barber chair so dangerous?

[woodworkingboy]

Interesting post, Stig. It leads me to think that a heavy loaded tree doesn't much need an open face, maybe it's even a disadvantage, if the direction of fall is a given due to the added weight. The point is to get it over with adding the least amount of tension to the back.

[woodworkingboy]

A barber chair .....the back and upper part of the tree can split off and flop down upon itself, break apart and roll off on your side. Sometimes it's a lot of wood that gets included in the split off. If you're in the way when it breaks apart in back, or underneath when it breaks and comes down...sometimes the upper part shoots back too, it's not a good thing.

This photo is the back of the tree after the bc, looking towards the direction of fall. You can just see the stump underneath the shattered wood.

[Dave Shepard]

So, why's a barber chair so dangerous?

Because the tree can cover a lot of ground in a hurry, and you may not have a viable escape route. Of the barber chairs I have seen most just collapse on top of themselves, but some can be extremely unpredictable. It usually happens to me on small diameter stuff, like 6-8 inch ash trees, especially if I don't proceed with the backcut. They just open up about 15-20 feet up the tree, shoot back, and then fall off the split off part. I try not to wast any time getting the back cut in on trees like that, and if they start to split, I get the hell out of Dodge, and screw the saw!


Dave

[JamesTX]

Unpredictability - got it. Thanks.

[stig]

Interesting post, Stig. It leads me to think that a heavy loaded tree doesn't much need an open face, maybe it's even a disadvantage, if the direction of fall is a given due to the added weight. The point is to get it over with adding the least amount of tension to the back.

On a really leaning tree you cant do much about changing the direction of fall anyway. It's mostly about saving the log and your life!!

[Treeslayer]

I cut a notch that might have been 1" deep, if that (saw was already starting to bind). I touched the backside of the tree with the saw wide open and then ran like hell.
Ah, one of my favorite techniques. And I've been a distance runner all my life, so I can haul ass. even with a saw.:D

[Burnham]

Try a read of this thread, some good discussion.
http://gypoclimber.com/showthread.php?t=9410

[woodworkingboy]

Good reading, thanks Burhham.

[TheTreeSpyder]

This shows a Flash/BarberChair.htm (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Flash/BarberChair.htm) -by overload(compromising the integrity of the spar) because of early close that doesn't give enough relief, offering a 'split decision' model. The hard forward lean presents similar too much force- not enough (or fast enough) relief i think. Also trouble pinching in face of bar; and so not being able to get very deep in/ very far back for side to side control. Thus the early close gives split decision as force rushes forward and face pushes back, and the hard head lean from not enough relief from rear as force rushes forward i think.

Really the most inline X farthest back on axis of lean is going to be the fibers bearing most of the tension force of support, so eliminate the time consuming fiber cutting that provides about Zer0 holding force to the sides (as shown).

i like a trianglish, winged cut like brought up by Eric and pictured by Gord (as set up for final backcut. This gives 2 things: far back fiber to hold, and less across fiber to cut as you come thru. If the path back is altered some, the rear spread can be inline with the lean for most power of hold. So i'd only do like pic exactly if pure head lean/no side force Some dutch on side lean side only can help here too. If some sidelean i'd turn the tail of remaining backcut (as preset for final backcut) to be inline with the lean more. The reduced amount of fiber on sides in precutting, gives less fiber to cut in final back cut, so saw is moving faster/providing quicker relief. Similar in bucking, but with no spread at 'hinge'.

You can always slow the saw down, but ya can't speed it up(beyond full bore already). So this allows fuller control range by allowing the speed up factor (same power, less fiber on final backcut). It allows the fastest backcut, and you can always slow down... In tree, i'd more quick setup, with more of a strict triangle of holding fiber in precuts for final backcutting. This allows full breadth of fiber at hinge, and reduced fiber on 'run to hinge'. Giving more broad range of haw quick/hard you threw the force into the hinge, at fingertip control. Once again skewing tail/trail (of holding wood/final run for final backcut) to offset side force (dis-tracking from face). the whole theory also lends well to tapered hinge. i consider this all rather al'Dent'e.

[MasterBlaster]

I love that animation, Kenny!

[TGCIII]

thats a mouthful, sir. my hat's off to u

[woodworkingboy]

Informative post, Kenny, was not aware that an unintentional dutchman could be an ingredient for barber chair. That could have some very negative consequences when tossing a big top.

[TheTreeSpyder]

Notice how it is about relief as the equal and opposite empowermeant of force. Pressure from back or pressure from front, fighing the onward flow of force.

Extending that, i make a distinction between a fully/generically dutched face, and 1 that only dutches the lean side. Because, dutching 1 side, offers the other as relief...

http://www.mytreelessons.com/Dutch%20Push%20in%201%20side%20of%20Face.htm

You can get into trouble with this, use sparingly in felling, mostly for lower power stuff like limbing (in air) and bucking. Use by giving not only tension steering, but compression steering too(as equal and opposite use of forces to same end). Drier/colder/ deader wood that might not be as good for stretch/tension steering, might lend itself better for this push/compression steering and easing forces IMLHO. the amount of dutch pressure can vary the mechanics from a push, to a pivotal change in the mechanincs...after the hinge strength is set by first folding!!

[woodworkingboy]

Previously never considered push from the more rapidly closing side of the hinge, only that it was helping to negate pull when used on the lean side. If your theory is the case, considering that would be an aid in crafting the hinge, depending on wood condition as you suggest. Interesting to experiment with if the opportunities arise. For me, estimating the weight factor, beyond which such would not work, could only be a gut feeling at this point.

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think, that left alone, generic hinge would provide pull from both sides rear when loaded and open; and push from both sides from, when loaded and closed. Very simple machine, but very, very loaded by weight X length X angle X resistance to bend. Any tweaks to key positions in the simple scenario/under such loads, can greatly change the total disposition powerfully. Sometimes these can be the simplest miss-take or polishing finer. The system will try to balance out to front focal of face Nature-ally by pulling harder from the control side opposite lean on open(pulling towards center) and pushing harder on lean side on closed (pushing harder to center).

Splitting the faces(not working generically as one) can eliminate pull towards lean side (from rear lean side) and pushing towards lean from front non-lean side. So, we can about eliminate these if we can get the close on lean side while still open on pull/control side(taking forces serving towards lean and keeping those serving towards center by using own lean against itself to balance). Plus, these forces would be in opposite directions (push up, pull down); not being inline (where they would work on canceling each other out) they must then therefore be torqued/ leveraged.

i think the hinge strength is created by the forward force at first folding, and you can take about that amount of fibers (that it takes to fold) and reapportion the fibers to different patterns. These patterns can have some that are more key against side pull forces than others. The tapered hinge in particular is an example of reapportioning the forward bent fibers in a pattern to give more sidewards control. The more sideward and powerful the force, the more the tapered hinge maid is empowered to help etc.

But, if the close force in face really takes over(sets super harder than any other points/becomes pivot), it would become the pivot, after the hinge strength is set; totally changing the mechanics, by giving more leverage(by angle and length) to the already stronger hinge and at same time taking said angle and length from the load side(by less distance and angle to CG from the new pivot).

Once again i find the patterns for this imagery model in Dent's bible/alDent'e well as in practice. i find the patterns workable in tree as well as bucking(which way is the force, which way do i want it to go, what mechanical commands can i place in hinge/face?) , but they are usually presented in more observable felling scenarios. This is the outer edge of the forces, so in felling is the most dangerous point for them, much safer, and more abundant opportunities to practice in tree and bucking. Bucking gets tough when model is complicated by a variety of forces and pressures in different locations and directions. But all in all, using force to favour and making it disarm itself as well.

[Skwerl]

I'm sure Kenny understands this stuff but I'll be damned if he can communicate it to others. I can't make heads or tails of the previous post. :(

How I think the Coos Bay cut succeeds is because the side cuts allow you to reduce the amount of holding wood without triggering the fall. That way when you do make the back cut, there's less holding wood available to snap and cause a barber chair. Putting in a notch on the downside of the trunk cuts into the portion of trunk under the most compression, and therefore is more likely to trigger stem failure. The wood on the sides is under less stress so more of it can be cut with less likelihood of stem failure. When you do get around to making the final back cut, the amount of wood you're cutting is less and therefore it can be cut faster. Basically you're trying to cut it faster than it can fail.

[TheTreeSpyder]

i did mean to give this link as visual-aid, but then more explanation too.. Dutch Push in 1 side of Face.htm (http://www.mytreelessons.com/Dutch%20Push%20in%201%20side%20of%20Face.htm)

i'm glad we can agree on the Coos somewhat. i jest have the slant of the faster speed of the cut providing more releif quicker, to lessen the go-don't go effect causing the barber (like in the full face dutch kerf causing-most notably the cut coming most perpendicular to fiber and bypassing it's matching face cut)

Dent's bible "Professional Timber Falling ~ a Procedural Approach" shows a similar cut. i just think more holding power with less fibre can be had by 'tilting' the triangle to directly be opposite of any sidelean. So would only be straight back when no side lean. Also, the 'dished out' effect Eric pictures improves by removing even more fiber safely. Usually i'd be less particular, spend less time(just make more of a Dent triangle than dished out sides) in tree, where there is less space anyway. i'd do it to throw harder across etc. by making 020 'faster', providing more relief per second; with less fiber to cut through.

http://www.mytreelessons.com/dentCoos.JPG

i spent much time pouring over Dent's words and illustrations, experimeanting in the field and air. i found many lessons expanding the wood hinging theories beyond felling, to bucking and climbing. Many more such cuts in a single tree are in air and bucking/non-felling; though felling does give all the force at once to play with and observe. i maid a chart-legend from his legend to have as bookmark and also not to have to flip back to find dogeared page 15 without losing my place.

http://www.mytreelessons.com/dentLegend.JPG

One thing for sure he shows, It isn't just a face and backcut and maybe taper backcut is all there is. In his models, many precuts can be maid for setting up the final backcut to maximum, some even effecting the face.

The stuff on dutching is immense in how it can go right and wrong, because of how it calls and conjures up the forces of the same tree so powerfully. i recommend a lot of feeling this one out in bucking carefully; then some climbing. Some tree, when not much matters. Just remember to offer relief to 1 side/ don't dutch all the way across. Consider the wood and the side lean. Also, you are on your own hear, please be care-full.

Note: Dent's models for this only work in more extreme side and head forces i think. If we don't get hard close at dutch, then all we have done is shortened the hinge/lost. It is setting a smaller hinge for same load at worse angle (thus stronger hinge forced), then adding the close to change pivot etc. that changes things. for everything is how well you have set hinge tension and where the compression/pivot from there is. And the close changes that key compression/pivot position; taking away angle and length from the load side, while giving better angle and length to the hinge/support side of the compression/ pivot.

drDent goes Dutch (http://www.mytreelessons.com/dentDutch.JPG)

i usually recommend some hinge all the way across; with wide taper to control side, and kerf in front of hinge on compression/offside (offside from the cutter's control side away from lean) for more moderate stuff. In tree i'd go more like his prescription for serving limb across more, by giving tapered hinge with the bottom of the hinge kerfed out. Undercut kerf first when lots of upward holding fiber, then continue around for 'floor' of face cut in 1 motion, then complete face with vertical facing cut that aligned at top, but not at bottom(because kerf extends back further than top). Thus, the hinge could force to do without it's full length, the kerf would close at some point and hinge would have it's full length from new compression point to end of taper. Gravity force was downward kerf close would push towards center of face (more upwards). But, a lot of it comes down to not making the same face generically across to control the same forces, when the force is to 1 side or the other, and NOT generically the same across, so maximum would in response, not be the same across. Tapered hinge does this from 1 (tension) side of the equal and opposite reaction; these topics then carry that war also to the other side, which happens also to be the pivot of the whole worx, therefore helps to define about everything.

i think to really understand something, you have to see it in it's nakedness/extremes, then plot what % of it's extreme force you'd be invoking at any time. Like a chemist distilling something down to chemically pure, understanding at that level his/her target and then mixing with other (re)agents and observing. Then also, as they go on, being able to recognize immediately the influences of each component to understand collected data more, because they know it's properties int he purest form, and can more immediately pick them out in transition etc.. These (to me) are the extremes of hinging. As large powers they should only be invoked purpose-fully and not haphazardly. Maybe, they are best left at what not to do (especially dutched); but even then, the WHY gives the arguemeant so much more wait.

Sorry for bringing this too the imprisoned of non-technical discussion!:big-dance2:

[Skwerl]

Ken, this thread was about felling trees with substantial headlean or otherwise weighted to substantially increase the risk of barber chair. Your second image above is backwards from Stig's earlier image describing the cut he uses on felling these types of trees.
;)

Oh, I couldn't read all of your post. Too many incorrect synonyms that make your posts nonsensical and incomprehendable. Sorry Bud, but I don't think you even know the difference yourself any more. :(

too ≠ to
jest ≠ just
it's ≠ its
hear ≠ here
maid ≠ made
and so on and so on.

[Al Smith]

Let's face it ,it's hard to redirect a head leaner .I can get maybe 45 degrees at best . I've tried to do 90 but never had any luck .Besides that I'm kinda chicken chit and use the chains and binders .Then again ,I'm not a pro faller and don't run into this stuff on a regular bassis .

Having rambled on about that I don't cut for grade so if the bottom 10 or so feet get screwed up ,it's just firewood . Others aren't able to do as I so must use better methods .My only concern is not damaging something most importantly myself .

[TheTreeSpyder]

i'm sorry i lean more towards the expressive, poetic arrangements; but a lot of my junk is about visual imagery and feel. Also, about being small and ushering, rather than being bigger than a tree and forcing type of mindset. There are many life lessons in these forces to me, guess i did it so long as to see life in perspective of it. i also try to offset the seriousness of all this by kidding etc., like purposefully as to cool brain...

Too, i must apologize the drawing i was referring to was Gord's and not Eric's. But, still, it was similar to Dent's triangle(by any other name), only Gord\Eric takes it a step further by dishing out the sides. i'd just tearup offside behind hinge and leave all holding wood slanted to control side(like immense tapered), then dish out as my pre-backcuts/setup. Then finish down to tapered that was there all along. sirStig's strategy is a totally different animal, and have never played with it. i kinda don't like all the force funneled to one point, not spread on hinge across; but, i've never tried it..


The pix posted once again were not my own, but from Dent's book. The whole point of his writings(as i looked and distilled to commonalities) is direction left/right, north/south don't matter. There is just lean force/ direction, the desired target lay and strategy that takes the tree force and brings you to target. So, that is the mindset that i distilled the mechanics out of what he was showing, then confidentally turned the model sidewards etc. and broke down the forces and directions and followed suit. Sometimes even using same model to fold up to crane pull more balanced. So, to me if lean direction vs. same is approximately the same

If we are taking the felling model of force and target directions to bucking and climbing we can easily look at more folds further than 45 off lean. Especially when trying for a near horizontal slide of a horizontal limb. Then too, even more so, for same horizontal paths in rigging. Bucking wood by the model can give some real up close, full timeline examinations. But at the same time (bucking) can get force across spar and also compressing down into it too as definitely unique situations/lessons not as directly shared to climbing and felling cuts.

A long time ago someone else said it best:


"Nature to be Commanded;
must be Obeyed"
-Sir Francis Bacon

[sawinredneck]

I had a REALLY BAD ONE today!! Sorry, no pics.
30" DBH standing dead white Oak, fair lean to it, weighted heavy to the lean.
I figured it for an easy drop, made a smallish face cut, made the backcut about an inch and a half higher. Just as I was pulling the saw out to wedge it the wind comes up and over it goes, splintering up a good twenty foot!! I cut it off about 32", it left fiber on the stump twelve feet high.
I had thought of making a plunge cut on the back cut then cutting back to a small strap then cutting it. But I doubt that would have proven much.

Ok, I know my face was too small, but I was falling into a head wind and just wanted to get it down quick before the wind picked up more. I had no idea it would wrap back around me like it did!
Where else did I screw up?

[woodworkingboy]

Where else did I screw up?

Forgetting dead can be contagious.

[Stumper]

What you thought about was a good thing to DO. Bore in, cut to a decent hinge while a strap in back is holding it then nip the strap.

[Newfie]

Really the whole point of the bore cut is for preventing the barber chair in the heavy head leaner.

[NeTree]

Yup.

[Gord]

If there is a serious concern of barberchair there's really no reason not to bind up the butt with a dead eye sling or whatever's handy.

It also gives the option of attempting to swing a heavy leaner one way or another without the fear of a barberchair. I've done it many times with good success, it's amazing how far even a weak species will swing away from a heavy lean if the cut is very low (into the root flare) and the butt is bound.

[NeTree]

Why not just cut it right to begin with and forego all the messing with binding? ;)

[sawinredneck]

There was no need to swing it anywhere other than the lean. The lay was perfect, a nice clearing and easy to get to.
Being that it was Oak I really wasn't that worried about barberchair, I have never had a white Oak split on me before.
Now not being a smart azz Justin, but this baffles me a bit, I guess I don't understand the physics. My hinge would have been the about the same either way I would have cut it, in theory.
I made the back cut to where had what I thought was a decent hinge. I probably would have left the same hinge had I bore cut it then wedged it over.
What changes in these two cuts?

[NeTree]

The timing of the loading on the hinge and spar woods changes, for one.

In a straight back cut, the tree builds movement and pressure on the woods before you reach the ideal hinge width.

In a bore cut, the stresses that could set up a barber chair can't be created, because the parts of the stem that cause it are removed from the equation before the tree is allowed to move.

[sawinredneck]

So it MIGHT not have had time to pull, just broken off?

[NeTree]

Exactly. It would have gone down fast, but still followed the hinge. The bore cut takes out the barber chair wood.

[NeTree]

And FYI, ANY tree with a lean to it can barber chair; and the heavier the lean, the more likely it will, unless you bore it out.

[sawinredneck]

But back to my original point, the hinge is what I think caused the barberchair. The tree split right on the remaining hinge wood.
If I had made a thinner hinge and bore cut it I can buy this. But the hinge remaining the same I am not getting it.
Sorry if I am being stuborn, just trying to understand it better.

[squisher]

Sounds then like your hinge was either to thick or improperly formed?

[sawinredneck]

Well, first and foremost the notch was too small, Iam certain of that.
The hinge was around two and a half inches wide on a 31" tree. Really should have been a strugle to wedge, but with the lean, not so bad.
It was even all the way across the stump and with the notch.

[Stumper]

Andy, Perhaps your hinge was too thick and you would have had a BC anyway but.....If I understood you correctly the headwind backed around and pushed the tree over. You said you were about to wedge it........but with a head lean you shouldn't have needed to wedge it at all so your hinge was probably way too thick BUT if the wind pushed it the stresses spiked suddenly. If you bore and trip you can wait out the wind until; conditions are as good as you hope to get and then trip it (which would have meant avoiding the changeup in wind situation)

[squisher]

Seems odd to me that it'd barberchair. Also if you're falling with the lean you shouldn't need wedges.

[Stumper]

Ah......you mean you only had a few degrees of opening in the face? Bad Andy.

[NeTree]

That hinge was WAY too thick. One inch would have been plenty. (More hinge is rarely needed, and usually counter productive).

Even with the thick hinge, bore cutting would have made a difference, as Stumper pointed out.

[sawinredneck]

No, wide face, good eight inches, just not that deep, maybe six inches.
Shoulda just chased it off the stump I guess:lol:

[squisher]

On leaners you definetly want to stay on it if you haven't done a borecut.

[sawinredneck]

Thankfully no one got hurt, and it was just for firewood. Just trying to learn from my mistakes, and I think I am still erroring by a not large enough face cut. I've got to get bigger!!!
I just thought, and I think that got me more than anyting!

[stig]

Make your facecut bigger, that way you get out of the sapwood and more into heartwood, which is more brittle on oak and therefore tears easier.
Make it a habit to bore any tree, that has lean to it, as well as any tree you fall on windy days.
When you have a lot of practise, you can get away with just cutting from the back on a lot of questionable trees. The trick is to know which ones will blow up, and that knowledge only comes with falling a lot of headleaners.
It doesn't take any longer to bore a tree, so get in the habit of doing so. That way you'll not be so likely to die young or if you are a professional faller, have some forester rip you a new asshole for splitting a 1000$ veneer log.

[Graeme McMahon]

It's the wood behind the hinge that causes the barber chair.
If this wood is not cut the trunk will split up, rather than break the remaining wood.

In free grained "white wood", the chance of barbers chair is much higher than in short grain timbers.

When falling alpine timber (i.e. ash), leaving a strong hinge or over-cut scarf will also cause barbers chair.

[Graeme McMahon]

Some examples of barbers chairs...

First pic shows 1 of the 75 trees cut by a vandal on the tension side, and shows splits up and down from that cut.

Second pic shows first stage of stabilisation, prior to climbing.

[Graeme McMahon]

Second stage of stabilisation is a cable to support the cut tension wood.

Final picture shows a DIY attempt where 'faller' was very lucky. The cut end of the trunk landed about 8' behind the stump. On Mountain ash timber, that could've been 60'.

[sawinredneck]

Thank you, that makes sense to me now.
I figured out quick the face was too small, and after seing you're diagram and pics, that is exactly what this tree did.
I pulled the saw out, watched it rock a bit, then just split right up the stem as it fell over!

Stig: thankfully this was just firewood, so no boss. But the getting killed part bothers me a lot!!

[MasterBlaster]

Vandals? That's amazing. :X

[woodworkingboy]

Judging by the first pic, a vandal with a sharp saw.

[Graeme McMahon]

Yeah Butch, The vandals cut 75 ash trees over the viewing platform for a stunning waterfall. That section of bush had to closed off for safety until the damaged trees were removed.

The interesting part was to decide where to start. On a still day the whole area was creaking and groaning from the split standing trees.

It was like a game of chess!:\:

Graeme McMahon

[MasterBlaster]

So I guess no one was ever found and convicted? What a shame...

[arborworks1]

What a Senseless Act. That messes things up for many generations.

[CurSedVoyce]

Makes ya blood boil..:X

[MasterBlaster]

Like terrorists, cowards. :roll:

[CurSedVoyce]

UH HUH! and people that don't pay the bill .. yup all "those" kind.

[NeTree]

Now that's just freakin' retarded.

[CurSedVoyce]

Makes ya want that 50 cal back on top of the next hill over with just the right windage and a night scope ;)

[Graeme McMahon]

It took 2 months to complete the task and rates for me as some of the most interesting problems to solve.

I have a water tight alibi for the night it was done.:/:

In regard to the thread, we had a section of forest that all had "barber's chair". Having to climb and remove these trees in the steep terain meant we had to understand and control the damage prior to climbing.

Graeme McMahon

[CurSedVoyce]

Difficult task at best ....

[woodworkingboy]

The tree damage and hazards to people, I could see bringing back the medieval penalty of stoning a person to death for doing that.

[gf beranek]

Same thing happened during the 1970s National Park expansion in Humboldt county.

In that case it was a political statement. The vandals ringed trees in several areas of the parks. Which had to be closed for months before all the trees were removed.

Pretty ballsy to go sawing on a tree in the dark like that.

[woodworkingboy]

Pretty ballsy to go sawing on a tree in the dark like that.

Failed suicide attempt, really a cry for help?

[MasterBlaster]

I have a water tight alibi for the night it was done.:/:


:lol:

[Al Smith]

Thank you for the diagram which showed failure of the inner fibers .I had no idea this is where the actual barber chair was started . I always just took for granted a chair was possible just never investigated why .

[stig]

Final picture shows a DIY attempt where 'faller' was very lucky. The cut end of the trunk landed about 8' behind the stump. On Mountain ash timber, that could've been 60'.

That picture reminds me of the most "famous" barberchair around here:
During WW2 a parachute with a container of weapons sent from the US for the resistance landed in an oak tree in the forest, in the middle of the night. In order to get the stuff down, the partisans, some of which were loggers, who worked in the forest, had to cut the tree down, before the Germans got there. They started an undercut by axe, but the sound carried too far, so they decided to just cut the tree.
It barberchaired horribly, but since they were pro's and expected it, no one were hurt. The containers was saved, and everybody got away.But they had to leave the parachute for the germans to find.
The next day the Germans blew the house of the head forester up in retaliation.
The stump is still there, barberchair and all, with a brass plaque telling the story.
I'll see if I can take a picture tomorrow and post it.

[TheTreeSpyder]

Nice drawing, thanx. i believe it's been discussed about the center fibers being older, deader, stiffer; so face plunging would eliminate these from the hinge and make the load carry on the more outer, younger, flexible fibers. But, then docShigo didn't agree that the fibers would be stiffer in center(?). Also, not facing very deeply, could place hinge fibers before center(stiffer) core too, or in tandem with face plunge. This shallow facing also would then take away some of the head lean angle.

i'm still of the school that dutching face full across can also give barber chair operating on the equal and opposite side of the hinge. Such a simple, base machine (hinge); that at these large loadings every detail potentially making a large difference.

i like wide cargo straps for light bindings(especially hauling up in tree); easier to get out from under fall (but well set perpendicular to lay logs can spread out force and bridge load up off chain, rope, web; as well as help keep saw out of dirt bucking trunk). Not as tough as chain; but cheaper and lighter.

i

[Graeme McMahon]

When falling split prone trees like the E. regnans, they are temperamental trees normaly. With a large heavy leaner we "sissor cut" the wood behind the proposed hinge (from either side) before "back releasing" the tree. That prevents the "BC", but in turn loads up the back of the tree to the point the stump can split and go with the roots. Most times the remaining strap can be cut and it parts with violent aggression.

This is a much safer option than creating "BC" and looks after the log. You do not stand behind the tree when its loaded up.:\:

I will see if Angus has the time to post (in the video section?) a 10 second short of a tree pulling up a root as it departs. We have just finished falling some mature rotten "tubs of manure" that behaved as described.

Graeme McMahon

[Gord]

Here's a tree that I would guess could be called a 'tub of manure' graeme :) (not my video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp8-3PA9au4

[Graeme McMahon]

A truck load!

Graeme

[sotc]

just post it anywhere graeme, this thread is fine. thanks for your input!

[sawinredneck]

A truck load!

Graeme

That video is INSANE!!!

Yes, thank you for the insight Graeme!

[Angus]

Here's a tree that I would guess could be called a 'tub of manure' graeme (not my video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tp8-3PA9au4
Loving it! that video probably shows it a bit better anyhow

I think this is the video Graeme was talking about...
I shot it a few weeks ago in Tarabolga national park, it was one of two heavy leaners.

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[pantheraba]

Great sounds...the cracking, popping and squealing as she breaks is ominous.

Thanks for posting.

[sotc]

nope, yours showed it better angus! scary, cut the only root that was really doing anything:O

[Newfie]

Holy Crap.:O

[stig]

As promised yesterday, pictures of a 64 year old barberchair.
You can see where they started chopping an undercut, and had to stop because of the noise. There is the remnants of a wreath, someone left on "liberation day" May 5th, rotting on the stump.

[MasterBlaster]

That's cool, Stig. I can't believe it hasn't rotted yet.

[Burnham]

Great conversation...special thanks to Graeme for his erudite contribution.

When we have G. McMahon posting to the TH, and Jerry Beranek...well, we're running with the big dogs, boys and girls.
8)

[Al Smith]

That's cool, Stig. I can't believe it hasn't rotted yet. If it's like those oaks I had on one thread ,they last a long time .I had pics of a cut made in the 30's ,rotted on the outside ,solid as a rock 2 inchs in .

I've never been there but I imagine that Denmark would likely have a climate much like we in this area .Unlike La ,Misssissippi or Florida we do not have constant humidity that would promote decay .

[stig]

When we have G. McMahon posting to the TH, and Jerry Beranek...well, we're running with the big dogs, boys and girls.
8)

You are a fairly big dog yourself, Burnham.
About the size of Jasper!

[stig]

I've never been there but I imagine that Denmark would likely have a climate much like we in this area .Unlike La ,Misssissippi or Florida we do not have constant humidity that would promote decay .

Also, we don't have any termites!

[Al Smith]

Also, we don't have any termites!Nor do we .Gypsy moths and carpenter ants ,yes ,termites no . I don't think a termite has much of an appitite for hard oak but they do dine on damp pine .

[Burnham]

You are a fairly big dog yourself, Burnham.
About the size of Jasper!

WOOF!:D

[woodworkingboy]

Those trees pulling their stumps when they barberchair. That could be a good beginning for a movie about lost gold, or the mummy arising again :\:

[Gord]

That was a bad tree angus! 'Tub of manure' translates around here to 'bag of pus.'

In the local forests most redcedar stumps that were felled about 100 years ago still look very much the same from the outside but they're all hollow.

[stig]

In the local forests most redcedar stumps that were felled about 100 years ago still look very much the same from the outside but they're all hollow.

I am amazed that redwood last so much longer than redcedar. I thought it would be more or less the same, but a 100 year old redwood stump is still sound.
I bought some blocks from the stump of a redwood logged in 1929 and although brittle, it is still fine.
When I finally get around to turning bowls from it, I'll post some pictures. So far it's been sitting for 3 years waiting for me to have the time.

[Al Smith]

On one of the forums a gent talked about two giant Douglas fir stumps ,7-8-10 feet across .Someplace in Washington or Oregon .These things were cut about WW 1 time period .Still so solid he could not shake them with a D7 Cat .

I've never dealt with a nearly 100 year old stump but I have on some about 50 or so . You might be able to break them up with a dozer but to pop one out takes a blast or a big track hoe .

Depends on the species ,oak lasts forever ,maple gives it up after maybe 10 years .In 20 you can't tell it was ever there unless you get to digging then you will still hit roots .

[Burnham]

I am amazed that redwood last so much longer than redcedar. I thought it would be more or less the same, but a 100 year old redwood stump is still sound.
I bought some blocks from the stump of a redwood logged in 1929 and although brittle, it is still fine.
When I finally get around to turning bowls from it, I'll post some pictures. So far it's been sitting for 3 years waiting for me to have the time.

Depends on the individual tree, to some degree. I have seen solid buckskin oldgrowth western red cedar snags that could and in some cases are still milled. Trees dead for decades. And oldgrowth blowdowns that have been on the ground for 60 years or more, same thing.

I'd bet that most of those hollow stumps Gord refers to were hollow when the tree was felled lo these many years ago...and of course they still are :|:.

Oldgrowth red cedar with no rot may not last as long as oldgrowth redwood, but it does not disappear all that quickly either.

[sotc]

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[Gord]

Yuck I hate hemlock.

I don't know why the outside of cedar always stays sound for so much longer than the interior. I'm sure you're right burnham about some of those but I can't recall seeing a single fully sound old cedar stump, and they can't all have been rotten, lots of sound ones around (live ones i mean.)

[Bermy]

Talking about old, sound stumps...bit of a derail...
I'll post a thread when I get the pictures BUT:

Two days ago I stood next to a Bermuda cedar (Juniperus bermudiana) stump that was over 7,000 years old when it died and had been under water for around 3,000...then hauled up and dumped on the shore for 20 or so years. They were found during dredging to deepen the ship channel so they were 20-30' down and would have been buried in silt. A client of mine had it dragged off the shore and brought to his garden.

Its nearly as sound as the day it died, there is good timber in it and its cousins, not millable for planks but usable for things like sculpture, and lampposts and whatnot. The worms had maybe penetrated 3-4mm, you could still smell the scent of cedar, yet some portions smelled like burnt tyres when cut and sanded.

The one stump is about 10' x 8' (approximately) and the depth of the rootball is like 1' at most, it would have been growing on rock. Simply amazing!

[squisher]

Pics of that would be really cool.8)

[Bermy]

Pics of that would be really cool.8)

They're coming, as soon as I can find my card reader....stay tuned

[darkstar]

Talking about old, sound stumps...bit of a derail...
I'll post a thread when I get the pictures BUT:

Two days ago I stood next to a Bermuda cedar (Juniperus bermudiana) stump that was over 7,000 years old when it died and had been under water for around 3,000...then hauled up and dumped on the shore for 20 or so years. They were found during dredging to deepen the ship channel so they were 20-30' down and would have been buried in silt. A client of mine had it dragged off the shore and brought to his garden.

Its nearly as sound as the day it died, there is good timber in it and its cousins, not millable for planks but usable for things like sculpture, and lampposts and whatnot. The worms had maybe penetrated 3-4mm, you could still smell the scent of cedar, yet some portions smelled like burnt tyres when cut and sanded.

The one stump is about 10' x 8' (approximately) and the depth of the rootball is like 1' at most, it would have been growing on rock. Simply amazing!

Yes sir pics and any othe info greatly appreciated on that.
Most appreciated.:P