No Face

[MasterBlaster]

Today I watched a guy pull a bad leaning pine with just a backcut, no underbed whatsoever. He used a chain to control the barberchair, which it definitely did. The pine was 90 feet with a DBH of 20 inches, and it was pulled with a tractor. It went over, slowly and perfectly. I was suprised.

Any of ya'll use this technique?

[NeTree]

I think he was acting very stupidly. Sooner or later, he'll pay.

He got lucky.

[Skwerl]

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Sounds like he's using up all his luck though, one day it will catch up with him.

Just because it works most of the time doesn't make it a good (or even valid) method.

[woodworkingboy]

Never have seen it done on a decent sized tree.

Did he continue cutting as the tree was being pulled, or just cut so far then stop, then the tractor gave it a yank?

Seems like if you continued cutting deeper when pulling, the small ledge wouldn't be so much of a problem. Good coordination between cut and pull required.

[MasterBlaster]

I forgot to say he used the same technique to pull over two other leaning trees, before that one.

His reasoning was it was okay because he was using the chain to control the barberchair, which I gotta say did it perfectly.

[NeTree]

Gee, and all this time I've been just using proper cutting technique to control barberchair.

Silly me.

[MasterBlaster]

Did he continue cutting as the tree was being pulled, or just cut so far then stop, then the tractor gave it a yank?

Seems like if you continued cutting deeper when pulling, the ledge wouldn't be so much of a problem. Good balance between cut and pull required.


What "ledge?" And yes, he kept cutting the entire time.

[No_Bivy]

no way here

[squisher]

Why bother? Why not just use a proper face cut and not put yourself in a situation where the tree's gonna barberchair? I'm voting no on the no face cut method. Using that method his pull line is the only thing that is steering the tree with any effectiveness. With a pull line and proper face now you've got precision steering of the tree.

[MasterBlaster]

Gee, and all this time I've been just using proper cutting technique to control barberchair.

Silly me.

When the tree was on the ground, it was still attached to the stump, where the face would been. I gotta say, I watched him do it successfully three times this morning.

[No_Bivy]

Jerry B?.........what say thee:/:

[squisher]

If you want to keep the tree at the stump, chain the tree to the stump after putting in your proper face cut would be a more reliable method imo.

Three times, makes no matter imo a machine could pull or push trees over all day without face cuts. That's how we log here for landclearing for fields, a big excavator pushes the trees over and they always go where the operator wants with no cuts at all. I've done it before but I was the sorry sap bucking the rootwads off the pushed over trees, talk about filing alot.

[MasterBlaster]

Keeping the tree at the stump wasn't the goal, I was just trying to paint a picture for you.

[woodworkingboy]

Ha, I can't help but see a ledge even when there isn't one.

A front hinge, it's a new concept I think.

[GASoline71]

Not only no... but hell no...

Gary

[Dave Shepard]

I voted no. I don't personally see a reason to skip a quick face cut. Were there any targets in or near the lay?


Dave

[arborworks1]

I can only say I have done this on one pine. The top 30 feet had been destroyed by beetles. It was live and healthy below that 30 feet. Had to be rigged and I didn't want to take a chance on anything. So I cut about 3/4 of the stem dia. Made a small kerf to keep from tearing into the rigging.
Hit the deck and winched it over. Worked good, a little closer to a snap cut when the peel hit the small kerf.

Never on a whole tree unless it was a sapling.

[No_Bivy]

Red Neck Tear Hinge:D...i do it a-loft sometimes

[TGCIII]

i bet, he dont do it 3 times tomorrow

[arborworks1]

Good term for it, John

[brendonv]

Small tree's sure (less than 6"). I can say I don't bother putting faces in when blocking down wood onto to rigging, thats about it.

[MasterBlaster]

Were there any targets in or near the lay?


Not in the lay, but it loomed over the house.

[NeTree]

LMAO Brendon... we can tell that from your avatar.

;)

[TGCIII]

"match cutting" as i've seen it is a practice for fellers in a hurry that don't care if the tree goes astray. he got lucky it happens but not everyday

[brendonv]

LMAO Brendon... we can tell that from your avatar.

;)

Haha, you aignt shitting. Wasn't cutting faces in that wood.:) But really, if the occasion needs it, I will do it for sure.

[NeTree]

When chunking as in your avatar, I don't really bother with a face either most of the time... just a quick little kerf cut into the underside so it doesn't tear like that.

[TGCIII]

sorry but i want my work to come off the cut excactly when i intend it too. if it strips off like ur avatar i didn't do it right. thats fine if im tied in elsewhere and the tree is alive but i normally i cut dead trees and in dead stuff ,it dont strip brother, it splits. take it for what its worth, aint no smile for that one i promise

[sawinredneck]

I've always made at least a kerf cut. On small Oaks 10" max, I make a small kerf cut, then a back cut and push the tree over on the hinge. Not right, but it works.
No face at all, I just can't see that being a good thing! I hope it's a serious piece of equipment, I am having visions of a half ton pickup flying through the air as the tree springs the other direction!

[stehansen]

I've never done it, so I don't really know the consequences of doing it like that.

[MasterBlaster]

No, it was a logging tractor.

[Old Monkey]

Hey Butch do you think he pulled it any farther from its lean than you could have with a face cut and a tractor to pull it over?

[MasterBlaster]

I woulda used a narrow face, myself.

[cory]

No, it was a logging tractor.

What's that, a skidder?

[MasterBlaster]

Yup, sorry...

[Old Monkey]

Narrow face? After the face closes the hinge breaks and your ability to pull it against its lean ends.

[Skwerl]

Yup, if I have something that has to swing a long way around then I'm going to have a notch wide enough to keep the hinge from closing until after the obstacle is cleared. It doesn't have to be deep, but wide is good.

[NeTree]

As Brian said, I want a notch/hinge that will get the tree well-committed to the desired direction before it cuts loose.

[TGCIII]

in my eyes it about the hold that the upper side of hinge has. no matter how wide or narrow the face, its if u let that hinge work. the saw and the hinge is no better than the man behind it. if u got the insight to understand the situation then u also have the power to correct it. in a certain amount of time of course

[TGCIII]

oh well then it is what it is and thanks for allowing me to voice my opinion. M.B. u keep on keepin on hats off to u

[Paul B]

good post :) what does your username stand for ? TGCIII?

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think this is something that worx some in specific woods, not too brittle, fairly elastic and alive. i've climbed for a guy that would do this. Sometimes just rig, cut, flex with truck(with no one near tree so problems less problematic), buck by self. i saw him topping top 2/3 like that one time when i was pulling up; he was just climbing down and on way to truck. i did it some on ground, and in tree especially for flexing into rope (where rope took the load over at some point). But always trusted a hinge more, and thought i could do more with it, especially without power pull. My buddy still probably does pretty well with it though. dutch/kerf is different somewhat, no hold/tension fibre at end for the potentially slower, softer landings.

[CurSedVoyce]

My business partner does it a lot and I have issues with it .. He is changing his ways and is more into production (ie:getting the thing on the ground) than I.. I like a nice face cut with a lot of control. Now I have also done this and never had the barber chair. I will often make a small kerf cut to prevent the barber chair in case ... but I more often birds mouth cut a leaner to fell it. He is gettin better at not just one cutting the fell. I have been on him.... Also he mostly does it on small leaners 12 inch or less. I dont like the lack of control of the fall nor do I like the hung up hinge/split for clean up cutting... So I stay pretty safe in my cuts for safety and convenience... And I like to see how far I can stretch the fall into degrees from lean ... I love when you can make them dance to 30-40 degrees of the lean .. :)

[top hopper]

The whole purpose of a face is direction. Gunning.

Without one you have no control where it will go.

[squisher]

Exactly.

I have used the no face cut before. Reserved for trees small enough I can just push them over where I want them to go. Anything bigger than that gets a proper notch.

[Stumper]

No face on things bigger than 8-10 inches is very unwise-No advantages but several potential problems.

[sotc]

ive pulled over a few short fat stubs like that before. they seem to roll off which ever direction has the most weight. id like to see this guy do his thing as i might learn something but untill then ill stick to face cuts

[squisher]

His reasoning was it was okay because he was using the chain to control the barberchair, which I gotta say did it perfectly.

What sort of chain set-up? Did the tree barberchair badly/violently? And where was it tied off? How high? My thoughts being that if it was tied off quite high and pulled on really hard if there was any kind of weak part in the tree it could potentially fail before it pulled over with no face.

If the tree was so green that it could pull right over with no hinge against a lean and then not come off the stump. I would think that the same fell could have been done with alot less force with a proper undercut and backcut.

[fishhuntcutwood]

Face for sure (with a Humboldt ;)) and a bore cut if it's a bad leaner.

[stig]

You have no sideways control at the final part of the cut, if you don't have a face.
The chain however, is something I use a lot.
Got the idea from GB's poster , back when that came out.
It gives you a chance to leave a hell of a hinge, which in some species like ash, would mean a barberchair for sure.
I'll also use it when cutting large tops out of hardwood trees in one piece. A self locking logging chain over and under the cut, takes most of the nervousnes out of the situation.

[vl2007]

:O

[woodworkingboy]

Powerful saw with a sharp chain, a steady strong pull with a fast cut. Go for it.

[wiley_p]

Butch, was this guy from Alabama by chance? I threw several guys off of a project in LA for using that same technique with disastrous results. I was told thats how they "fall" timber in Alabama. I was always curious how the lead looked in their strips.
Bad idea all around.

[gf beranek]

In lopping brush and small trees I seldom use a face cut. Though I maintain cutting as long as the tree moves to keep it from splitting.

The technique you described, Butch, it sounds risky to me, but it just goes to show another mans method.

I'd like to have watched and recorded it. Like Kenny said the way fiber varies in different trees you may get by with it in some but certainly not all.

[Al Smith]

It doesn't sound too good to me but neither do those bore cut ,back cut deals they use on veneer trees either .They say it's done to prevent fiber pull . I guess not being a veneer cutter I just wouldn't know .

I use the binder chain when it doubt .As I have said before I had one chair on me early on and I've never forgotten it .:\:

[Bounce]

When I was a kid, I was playing around with my new bow and shot an arrow straight up into the air. As soon as I did it I realized that the slightest little breeze could make that arrow go anywhere it pleased and that I might be about to die. Looks like this guy is as lucky as I am. The difference is that I never did it again, while this guy apparently did it 3 times in 1 day.

[TGCIII]

he said 3 times a day. come back to our world but i promise it's gonna hurt

[Burnham]

One thing we can remind ourselves of is the Coos Bay felling cut. Recall that Jerry Beranek describes it with no face, as opposed to my own variation of it. Here's a link to the thread where we hashed it out.

http://gypoclimber.com/showthread.php?t=9410

Now this fella is not doing the same thing, exactly. But there are similarities.

Nonetheless, I don't think it wise when it is possible to put in a proper face. There's where your directional control comes from...I only would go without if there was too much lean to allow it (and then I'd do the Coos Bay style), or in quite small wood...as others have said already.

It's lazy and probably gonna bite his azz one day.

[Burnham]

Butch, when you say he used a chain to control the barberchair, do you mean he bound it, or he cut it fast?

[MasterBlaster]

He bound it.

[Burnham]

Gotcha...so barberchairing was not a big issue, but uncontrolled direction of fall still is.

If he can accelerate the skidder fast enough to keep ahead of the speed the tree falls, I reckon it could work out most of the time...but people usually don't keep going that fast that long.

[MasterBlaster]

I'm telling ya, all three pulled over just as pretty as you please.

[Burnham]

Poll is 27 to zero for using a face...I'd vote for using a face too, except for the occasional Coos Bay. Need one more option in the poll :D.

http://gypoclimber.com/showthread.php?t=9510

[wiley_p]

I've seen it work to a degree, but the guys that used that technique exclusively were off a bunch about 80% of the time. A coos bay works because there is a headlean, and it isn't a precision cut, just a safe option for dealing with heavy trees.

[woodworkingboy]

If the tractor is strong enough to pull it over enough against the lean, to the point where the tree is leaning towards the lay, and with no slack in the line, unless there are issues with the limb weight making it go astray once it starts to fall, it seems OK to me. Still, a face would reduce how much the tractor needs to pull. No?

[Gord]

It's without a doubt a hack move, and you'd likely only get away with it on something like (some) pine or spruce etc. Try it on cottonwood or silver maple and they'd go sideways more often than not I would bet.

[vl2007]

Poll is 27 to zero for using a face...I'd vote for using a face too, except for the occasional Coos Bay. Need one more option in the poll :D.

http://gypoclimber.com/showthread.php?t=9510

Have not yet had the opportunity to use the Coos Bay, but it's in my tool box.

[sotc]

If the tractor is strong enough to pull it over enough against the lean, to the point where the tree is leaning towards the lay, and with no slack in the line, unless there are issues with the limb weight making it go astray once it starts to fall, it seems OK to me. Still, a face would reduce how much the tractor needs to pull. No?


yes because it moves the fulcrum point further back. burnham makes a good point where when pulling a tree over it reaches a point quickly that the pull point moves faster than the thing pulling making it

[gf beranek]

"Keeping ahead of the split."

You ever hear that before? I learned there is some degree of control if you can cut the stem faster than than it would split out. But once the split occurs you generally lose control.

It's specific only to falling small trees to their favor. With a little windage control in some. Even with limbs in the tree.

I never forget when Mike Davis described the Coo's Bay cut to me in a bar one night( the Golden West) and while he was telling me about the Coos Bay I thought he lost his mind. But I knew Mike was a Pro.

About a year later I had a strip of trees to cut on an old land slide near Dos Rios. The only trees left standing on that slide were all heavy leaners, Doug Fir. I was at a loss to figure a way to deal with those trees until I remembered what Mike told me. And before the day was over I had that strip cut and bucked without a single barber chair. Now I use the Coos Bay cut on heavy spars and limbs in the tree. It's unconventional, but it works.

I'll always use a face cut on a fair standing or back leaning trees to see them to the lay. Heavy head leaners, however ......

[woodworkingboy]

There is the speed of the pulling implement part, but it seems to me that with no face, the tree isn't going to want to lean towards the lay so readily, so the pull force translates to a lot of tension in the tree in the right direction, sort of a whipping action once it starts to go. Won't that make up a bit for a pull that can't keep up with the tree when it goes over? With that tractor you've got what....2 tons of pull maybe..that's a lot of force to get a pine to start going where you want it to.

It's a perfect barber chair scenario without the chains.

[sotc]

i think i see what your saying buut i dont think you could cut fast enough to use the whip. i think it would come over slowlytill the "stretch" was gone or gravity took over. kinda mind boggling to think about

[sotc]

unless you bore cut and trip it. that sounds kinda scary though

[rbtree]

Exactly.

I have used the no face cut before. Reserved for trees small enough I can just push them over where I want them to go. Anything bigger than that gets a proper notch.


ditto that......It called stump jumping......


Yo, Dave, how goes it?

[MasterBlaster]

Who's Dave?

[Skwerl]

That would be wiley_p I believe. The folks at the saw shop call him 'nice guy Dave'. :lol:

[MasterBlaster]

Ahhh, from 12 posts ago. Not confusing at all.

[TheTreeSpyder]

It's without a doubt a hack move, and you'd likely only get away with it on something like (some) pine or spruce etc. Try it on cottonwood or silver maple and they'd go sideways more often than not I would bet.

The point about flexible vs. brittle is good. But if it is a hack move or not i think depends on your repertoire/what all you can pull out of the holster; and if you choose a technique because it is best for the situation (from a wide choice from a given skillset), or you are lazy or if you don't know any better and do it all the time.

Same thing fer other stuff. Maybe you do the same as the next guy on this or that, maybe even same 60% of the time; but mebbe you are worth more because you are pulling that choice from a wider gradient of choices; giving more security and chance for success for customer. Same with doctor, construction, wood finisher etc.

[squisher]

ditto that......It called stump jumping......

Stumpjumping is a technique unto it's own as I'm sure you know. It's not just nescessarily cutting and pushing a small tree over with no face. It involves a 'twist' technique near the end with a angled cut to shoot the but of the tree off and cause the tree to fall in the direction your aiming it for. I would say a proper stumpjump should involve little to no pushing.

[TheTreeSpyder]

What i call stump jumping is a dutched close or just kerf (dutch no facing) to get force to build up pushing up, then throws forward. Kind of like in a horizontal that you kerf under and come down and try to get it not to just pop and drop straight, but where it kinda tries to pop out away from ya(even if it doesn't pop out away, it tries). Then, this put on a horizontal can allow something to jump our over fence or miss plants at base etc. when felling.

[Al Smith]

Well do what you want .Let me tell you though from experiance ,use a tractor . A dozer can not get enough ground speed to outrun a falling tree . Once the cable goes slack that tree will go where it wants to . Meanwhile you sit there on the seat looking over your shoulder holding your breath it doesn't hit something .

[rbtree]

That would be wiley_p I believe. The folks at the saw shop call him 'nice guy Dave'. :lol:

That's what he's had on his voice mail message for some time now.....

[rbtree]

What i call stump jumping is a dutched close or just kerf (dutch no facing) to get force to build up pushing up, then throws forward. Kind of like in a horizontal that you kerf under and come down and try to get it not to just pop and drop straight, but where it kinda tries to pop out away from ya(even if it doesn't pop out away, it tries). Then, this put on a horizontal can allow something to jump our over fence or miss plants at base etc. when felling.


thanks spidey and squishy...call me skuuled....

[squisher]

Except me and Spydie are talking about two different things. Stumpjumping is a term I remember from treespacing. One cut right through, twisting the bar near the end to shoot the butt in one direction and cause the rest of the tree to (obviously) fall the other direction. Fast with limited direction control but in that setting not a big concern. Also really easy to throw your chain.:D

[sotc]

nother advantage to long bars, just spin the sucker back on and get back to work! no tools

[Nails]

Except me and Spydie are talking about two different things. Stumpjumping is a term I remember from treespacing. One cut right through, twisting the bar near the end to shoot the butt in one direction and cause the rest of the tree to (obviously) fall the other direction. Fast with limited direction control but in that setting not a big concern. Also really easy to throw your chain.:D

Cut with the top of your bar when you do it and you will have a hard time throwing a chain.

[squisher]

Top of the bar? I think you mean the bottom. I've always found it much easier to throw your chain while using the top of the bar. When you're in a high stem count block, throwing chains is par for the course. Not a matter of if but a matter of when.

[Nails]

Top of the bar? I think you mean the bottom. I've always found it much easier to throw your chain while using the top of the bar. When you're in a high stem count block, throwing chains is par for the course. Not a matter of if but a matter of when.

No, I mean the top. You are cutting as the chain is moving away from you pushing the saw back instead of throwing the chain when it catches. While brushing and stump jumping I figure this method to be about 10:1 better than cutting with the bottom of the bar. This method and a tight chain keeps me going.

[sotc]

im with squish, if your cutting with the top and it binds, then the chain still has to go around the tip, thats where the derailing takes place

[CurSedVoyce]

I agree with squish and Willie. I throw more chain on wood cutting with the top of the bar.. However in brush, and I am talking the twisted springy nasty type, when reaching into the brush with the saw and cutting with the lower part of the tip of the bar, I throw them more also. Reason being that the brush springs back and kicks the chain derailing it at the sprocket tip.

[Nails]

I'm just telling you what I know.

[squisher]

Good for you then. Cause you know, it's not like I spaced trees for a couple of years or anything.:roll:

Throwing chains was not a big issue for me but it was part of the job, happened to anyone who was moving fast enough to make a buck.

When cutting with the top of the bar as Willie said if your chain gets derailed it flys off the tip. Cutting with the bottom of the bar if your chain gets derailed it gets 'guided' back onto the sprocket by the plastic guides.

[Jonseredbred]

Plastic guides??

Your wimpy little Stihl's are held together with plastic chain guides??:P

[Blinky]

Seems a lot quicker to put in a face cut than wrap it with a chain.

[darkstar]

I brought this up a time or two befor and was rediculed to no end.
I see it all the time.
Its not that big of a deal.
The normal mode is to use a very very big tractor.The reason you dont cut it, is to hopefully get the stump and all.Hitch on a giant bull line or a cable about 20 feet up hook to trac hoe and take off .
Works everytime...
I was uncomforatable with this at first but after seeing so many put down . Its no big deal.Contractor trick.
We used a bull dozer to pull over a heavy leaner that was partially up rooted.
I took a pic of it and remember Burnham gave me a proper lashing.
Its good to have some follow through and a fast moving pull.Then you dont get any side fall.
Most ive seen by the time the tree hits the ground as the cable is tight and we just continue to pull the stump and all on to where ever we want it.
By tieing low , you lose leverage but the cable comes taunt very quickly and you get the stump out without pulling forward very far.;)
Ok let the lashing began, or do me a favor, just forget i wrote this.:D
It wont work . Dark's nutz.

[Blinky]

I brought this up a time or two befor and was rediculed to no end.
I see it all the time.
Its not that big of a deal.[...]

You're talking about clearing though right? We've done it with excavators, either pushing or pulling the trees down and getting the stumps with'em.

But he said the guy used a backcut which probably means he wasn't going for the stump.

I'm frequently surprised by how little some people who regularly fall trees know about using a hinge... alot of'em don't even know the concept. Most of the think it's all about how hard you pull the tree and don't give any thought to making good cuts.

[darkstar]

Yes mostly clearing.But ,i did do one residential job i would have never attempted without seeing alot of pull overs.It worked so well, i did use a tiny back scratch as well.:roll:
We got stump and all though.
Ive never seen this work done on anything giant.
Our oaks are rarely over 80 feet tall and usually about 4 foot DBH,at most.
Ive heard it reffered to as the Alabama method .
The first guy i saw use it was from Ranburn Alabama.
He well knew hinge methods, but only used hinges in tight areas, or on bigger trees.