Hazard tree contract fallers

[Burnham]

I am in the middle of administering a roadside hazard tree removal contract these days. Don't know why, but the road maintenance coordinator didn't care for my answer when he asked how long it would take for me to fall 3500 trees along about 35 miles of high use FS roads :D on my Forest...so we wrote a contract, and I'm the on the ground guy, identifying and marking the hazard trees.

The two guys in these pictures are about my age...there's about 70 years of full time timber falling experience on that team. I really like spending time with them.

Thought y'all might enjoy a few pics.

[NeTree]

Always enjoy your pics. Bring 'em on!

[Burnham]

Here's another batch.

[Burnham]

Last ones, double teaming a big Doug.

[MasterBlaster]

What happens to the wood, B?

[squisher]

Cool pics Burnham. Looks like pretty nice ground, although I'm sure it ain't all like that.

[gf beranek]

The Pro's at work. Good ground, nice trees and not a whole lot of brush to battle. A real faller's dream.

Though I know out of 3500 trees to fall they are not all going to be as depicted in these photos. Bound to be a few outlaws in the bunch I'm sure.

[Burnham]

What happens to the wood, B?

Most of these trees are dead and many to some degree or another are rotten. We're taking them down because they pose a hazard to road traffic when they fall. If there is solid wood in them and they are not too far from the road and the ground isn't too steep, publics will likely apply for firewood permits and buck it up for heating fuel. If not that, it will just lay there and rot the rest of the way away.

[Burnham]

The Pro's at work. Good ground, nice trees and not a whole lot of brush to battle. A real faller's dream.

Though I know out of 3500 trees to fall they are not all going to be as depicted in these photos. Bound to be a few outlaws in the bunch I'm sure.

Oh yeah, Jerry. No doubt about it. For example, I didn't take pictures of the ugly one that morning...it was only 24" dbh, a dead, hollow piss fir with a weird large hook-shaped limb that cradled into a 48" dbh ponderosa pine. The pondo was a beauty, no way we were taking it...the piss fir hugged that big pine all hung up tight and was a b***ch to slab down.

Another one...HEAVY leaner towards the road, 36"dbh larch 170 feet if it was an inch. Richard swung that one about 40 degrees, laid it in the ditch...it was wonderful to watch. He bored vertically under and in line with the hinge on the side he swung it to...it held that side of the hinge amazingly well. He says it really allows that side of the hinge to flex better and so hold longer. New trick for me...always something to learn.

[Dave Shepard]

Thanks Burnham. I always enjoy your photo spreads. Looks like you were already dealing with some uprootage in the shots of the third tree.


Dave

[Skwerl]

Burnham, when you get time I'd like to see a picture or diagram of that vertical boring you were talking about. I can't picture it in my head, and the way I'm reading it just doesn't seem like it would work.

[cory]

Same here Squirrel.

Great pics, Burnham. I love pics of old timers falling old growth, ala the Stihl redwood poster with the 2 guys working on top of a stump.

[stehansen]

Thanks Burnham.

[Dave Shepard]

Same here Squirrel.

Great pics, Burnham. I love pics of old timers falling old growth, ala the Stihl redwood poster with the 2 guys working on top of a stump.


Would that be a 150' tall stump?:)


Dave

[MasterBlaster]

This? :evil:

[Paul B]

Awesome!

I know who has that 090 these days... :shifty: Eh, Willie?

[sotc]

haha, i was thinking the same thing:D:/:
seen those contracts burnham, either no road closures allowed or real short closures! heard of that boring technique but never seen anyone pull it off. id be curious to see it also

[CurSedVoyce]

Awesome job and pics Burnham ...I would also like to see a pic or diagram of that boring cut... Love it when ya can make em dance :)

[bergsteiger]

Good pics Burn

[Gord]

Good pics Burnham. I've always wondered, is it peer pressure that keeps you guys wearing those goofy hardhats or do you actually like them? North of the border you don't see them unless you're in a drilling rig...

[sotc]

keeps the rain from pouring down your neck. oh and they look normal to me;)

[MasterBlaster]

Full brim RAWKS! :rockon:

[squisher]

Good pics Burnham. I've always wondered, is it peer pressure that keeps you guys wearing those goofy hardhats or do you actually like them? North of the border you don't see them unless you're in a drilling rig...

North of the border in BC? Lots of people wear the full brim on the coast up here. But not me, they look goofy.:D

[MasterBlaster]

Shirley! You jest! :D

[Thor's Hammer]

Full brim are the shiznit!

[MasterBlaster]

Have you gotten new spur pads, Ed?

[stig]

Burnham, it is always nice to see guys our age, who are still going strong.
Nice pics. Especially the ones of the ponderosa pine.

[Burnham]

Burnham, when you get time I'd like to see a picture or diagram of that vertical boring you were talking about. I can't picture it in my head, and the way I'm reading it just doesn't seem like it would work.

You may have to teach me how to draw on a .jpg file, like you did showing where you were going to put that vise and fix the step on your bucket truck, Brian. How's it done?

[Skwerl]

I open the picture with Paint, draw in my doodles and then hit 'save as' and specify saving it as a .jpg file.

PM me your phone number and I'll call you and walk you through it if you want. :)

[Burnham]

Thanks Brian...let me give it a try.

[Burnham]

OK, I think I figured that out, Brian...thanks for the pointers.

Here's how that bore cut works to increase the flex in the hinge. Look where I painted in a red line right under the apex of the horizontal and slanted face cuts...visualize boreing in right there, right in line with the front side of the hinge wood, right up to that intersection, but not past it. Let's first imagine that you bore all the way through the tree and exit on the far side in exactly the same orientation to the hinge. What you would have accomplished would be to make some room with that bore, as wide as the kerf, that would allow the hinge above it to flex further forward as the tree commits to the face before stresses begin to break it.

In green wood of a species that hinges well, this doesn't really help much, but in dead wood or species that are brittle, this additional room to flex allows the hinge to hold a bit longer than it otherwise would.

Now back up to the boreing again...if you only bore in partway, say 1/3 of the diameter, you have set things up to have the hingewood on the bored side to flex better and thus hold longer than the un-bored section. So the tree should swing to the side you bored.

In reality, I mis-stated when I said Richard "swung" that tree 40 degrees...what he actually did was faced it 40 degrees to the side of the head lean and improved the holding capability of the hinge on the opposite side with the borecut. It swung a little, but mostly he kept the hinge functioning even though the heavy lean wanted to rip it off early on the side against the lean.

When I asked him about the bore, he didn't go into an explaination of how it worked, he just said something like "makes the hinge hold better on that side". He also said, "if you take a block out right there, it'll hold even more". It took me about half an hour of chewing it over in my mind to figure out WHY it worked...but I'm pretty sure I have it right.

[JIML]

ahhhh I understand what your saying.. Im gonna have to try that.. Will have the opportunity sometime soon im sure.

[Skwerl]

Amazing, who'dathunkit? :|:
This was obviously dreamed up by somebody who thoroughly understands the mechanics and physics involved in hingewood. I'm not sure I completely understand how it would work but I'm looking forward to testing it out at my earliest opportunity.

Does the vertical cut extend into the notch area or do you leave some wood isolating it from the notch? :?

[Burnham]

Extremely close, Brian. It seems the desired position was actually an intersection of the two face cuts and the bore cut with no overlaps past any of them.

[Skwerl]

OK, that makes sense. :)

[pete mctree]

Cool pics Burnham, always good to watch pros doing there thing.
I see the possibilities of the bore cut. I remeber watching an old faller using a "block face" (a block cut out as opposed to the usual gob) which he said maintained the holding wood longer. I have used it on several ocasions myself topping out big trees, but without the understanding of the mechanics. I can see similarities in the two methods as the hinge flexes for longer.

[Burnham]

Same logic I think, Pete.

[cory]

Would that be a 150' tall stump?:)


Dave

No, I didnt mean that stump. The poster I'm talking about has 2 oldtimers working on top of the stump they just made from 1 of a 2 leader redwood. There's a pull cable hanging down from the remaining leader, probably Jerry had put it up there...

The caption is, "We came, we sawed, we conquered."

[cory]

Burnham, do you have any pics of a stump with the cuts in it?

[Burnham]

No, I sure don't Cory. Maybe I'll get a chance to get one when I'm out there next week. Wasn't much to see different than a normal humbolt face unless you looked real close and saw the bore cut.

[treesandsurf]

Burnham, can you use this bore cut in combination with a tapered hinge to increase the effect?

jp:D

[Knotahippie]

Great info. Burnham, never seen that cut before.

[stehansen]

Is this something like what Jerry talks about on page 279 "the gap" in his book?

[Bodean]

Thanks For sharing Burn, You rip.

[squisher]

No he bores.:D

[stig]

I've used that cut for years on virtually all trees that we pull in.
I just don't use it on a humboldt but on a convenyional one.
We just refer to it as a vertical cut, for obvious reasons or A German, for less obvious reasons.
I don't even know why it's called that. Invented by a german faller, perhaps?

[sotc]

so do you keep it below or move it to the top? keep it low id guess, for the conventional face

[Burnham]

Is this something like what Jerry talks about on page 279 "the gap" in his book?

I looked it up, Steve, and his discussion of the effect on holding wood is consistent with my analysis of the bore.

I'd forgotten that bit of Fundamentals...nice to see the general thought process in Jerry's words echoing my own.

[Burnham]

so do you keep it below or move it to the top? keep it low id guess, for the conventional face

Have to be below, I think.

Orrrr..maybe not? What say you, Stig?

[darkstar]

Wow i would love to hang with a felling crew for a bit and learn.
Burnham what do you guys do when one sits back hard on the wedges?
Really hard .

[Burnham]

If you only are using one wedge, set a second one and drive them with alternate whacks. Even a third.

Add magnesium or steel wedges. They drive with less loss of power to absorbtion within the plastic. Not a steel splitting wedge, a thin driving wedge.

Gut the hinge to make it easier to wedge over.

Bore out an alcove and jack it over with a hydraulic bottle jack, 12 ton or better, 20 ton. This is ghetto from a true logger's perspective, a Silvey 50 ton with a pressure gauge is prefered.

[Jonseredbred]

Run????

[Burnham]

Run????
Not until you at least unbolt your powerhead and take it with you :D.

[Gord]

Fall something else, preferably big, at it. Kidding. No one does that...

[darkstar]

Fall something else, preferably big, at it. Kidding. No one does that...
Yeah now we are talkin. Long as it didnt hang:cry:

[darkstar]

I always wanted to fell in the forest for a spell to get it down well.
Pun intended.
Its so hard to get good at felling , just doing residential.

[pete mctree]

I always wanted to fell in the forest for a spell to get it down well.
Pun intended.
Its so hard to get good at felling , just doing residential.

It was invaluable experiance for me. So many climbers cannot fell a tree with anywhere near the accuracy of a faller. Well here in the UK anyway

[Burnham]

Fall something else, preferably big, at it. Kidding. No one does that...

We sure as hell do.

[Thor's Hammer]

If you only are using one wedge, set a second one and drive them with alternate whacks. Even a third.

Add magnesium or steel wedges. They drive with less loss of power to absorbtion within the plastic. Not a steel splitting wedge, a thin driving wedge.

Gut the hinge to make it easier to wedge over.

Bore out an alcove and jack it over with a hydraulic bottle jack, 12 ton or better, 20 ton. This is ghetto from a true logger's perspective, a Silvey 50 ton with a pressure gauge is prefered.


I find that a little tug with one of these works wonders:)
http://www.lantz.ca/imagesMoosonee/2005_08/800mr_skidder_sunset_MG_2142.jpg

[Burnham]

Sure would do the trick, so long as you can get a line in it high enough.

I saw the results once of an attempt to pull over a hard setback Noble fir...they just threw a choker around the bole about 4 feet above the backcut, which was as high as could be reached by hand. That little tug broke the hinge and pulled the butt of the tree right off the stump towards the skidder...whole thing went over backwards per the back lean instead of standing up and hingeing forward.

Scared the bejeezus out of me :).

[Skwerl]

Amazing how some people will ignore the simple and obvious laws of gravity when trying to pull over a 60' tree with a choker 6' off the ground. :lol:

[Dave Shepard]

It's all in the hinge.:) I've pulled low on some trees, but nothing big. ;)


Thor, is that a 205? 208? I've got a 208 with a factory special order grapple.


Dave

[Gord]

When using a machine to push trees over it's common to aim for the backcut a little lower than the apex of the notch to help prevent the hinge from breaking due to the push on it.

[darkstar]

Far out ,so you are cutting below the notch?
You could get killed on some forums for even mentioning that.
OR worse, youll be BANNED

[Skwerl]

All depends on what you're doing and how you're doing it. Seems like a reasonable procedure if that's how you're doing it.

[stig]

Burnham, we always make the "German" or bore cut on the downside of the undercut.
Have you tried the hardhead wedges, the plastic wedges with a steel insert for driving. I find they beat anything else for sheer lifting power( except a jack, of course!)
They were totally unknown here until I started importing them from Bailey's and selling them to all the fallers I know.

That skidder look like an old Kockums "Treefarmer". Because they were made in our neighbouring country, Sweden, we used to have a lot of those working in the woods here.
Wonderful mashine, but the winch pulls really fast ( and hard!), so you have to be on your toes, when pulling trees with it.
First time I tried it back when I was just a green sprout, I set the wire in a smallish oak, bored the back cut leaving a little bit to hold the tree. Then I yelled pull and proceeded to cut all the way through.
I did't even get the saw revved, before the tree had blown up on me from the force of the pull.
Didn't hurt me none, but I had to change my underwear.

[gf beranek]

What Gord said.

"When using a machine to push trees over it's common to aim for the backcut a little lower than the apex of the notch to help prevent the hinge from breaking due to the push on it."

Pulling limb locked trees apart too, with the rigging set low on the tree. Quite often the force needed to pull the limb lock apart is greater than the strength of the hingewood due to the location of the rigging of course. So a low backcut here will leave a ledge for the tree to butt up against and heal over.

It's unconventional because it doesn't follow all the rules, but it works.

[Thor's Hammer]

The skidder was just a pic I pulled off google, The kockums are more common than the Timberjacks over here. I've pulled hundreds of back leaners over with a choker set at about 8'. Its just a matter of knowing what your doing in advance, and leaving a thick hinge.

[Burnham]

I agree with all said about setting the backcut low for pulling over...but Dark asked what to do if the tree sets back on your wedges hard. That indicates an unexpected situation to me, one where the cutter mis-read the lean. In that case, the backcut would most likely already be substantially in, and since the setback was not anticipated, the backcut would be in a more normal position relative to the facecut.

I believe under those circumstances, great care must be excercised with pulling with powerful equipment.

And don't pull the tree down on top of your skidder, either :D.

[Burnham]

Burnham, can you use this bore cut in combination with a tapered hinge to increase the effect?

jp:D

Sorry, overlooked this post jp.

On the surface of it, seems like it would, but the more I think about it, I'm not so sure...the bore increases the flex potential in the hinge, while a thick portion of hinge might fight flex. I really don't know the answer.

Stig seems to be the man with experience with this technique...how about it, Stig?

[sotc]

i would think the new trick i heard learned here, boring an 1/2 inch below the back cut to insert a wedge might work.
sometimes ill use the dingo bucket or forks in the back cut as a wedge. the bucket curl is strong and works better than pushing

[stig]

My experience with the bore cut is that it will prevent a too thich hinge from splitting the log, by adding flex to the hinge.
It'll also make the hinge last longer before breaking, again because it adds flexibility. Over the years of experiencing with this cut,I've found that on most hardwood trees it'll add 10-20 degrees of fall before the hinge breaks. On side leaners this could be the crucial 10 degrees that lets you fall the tree on the right side of whatever obstacle you are trying to stay clear of.
Normally we don't make the high stumps that americans do, but on any hazard tree I'll go 2 feet up on the log to make sure the grain is running straight and use the bore cut.
Around here the rule for stumps is: ½ the height of the toes.
What we call the toes of the tree is where the roots come out.

The methods we use for falling are very different from what you americans do, we use much shorter bars for one thing.
We actually take pride in being able to fall fat trees with a short bar.
If you want to see an example, look at my homesite www.skoventreprenoeren.dk
It is in danish, but there is a video of me falling a beech tree on the bottom of the front page.

[darkstar]

Nice website.
Yeah im a fan of uber low stump cuts.
I cant get my crew into it though and they always have a big hunk of junk wood...

[sotc]

.
Around here the rule for stumps is: ½ the height of the toes.
What we call the toes of the tree is where the roots come out.

The methods we use for falling are very different from what you americans do, we use much shorter bars for one thing.
We actually take pride in being able to fall fat trees with a short bar.
If you want to see an example, look at my homesite www.skoventreprenoeren.dk
It is in danish, but there is a video of me falling a beech tree on the bottom of the front page.

in the woods we get fined if stumps are left to high. it is impressive if you can make good cuts with a short bar but id rather make 3 cuts than 5 to get the tree down;)

[Skwerl]

In these parts, all the wood is junk wood. Taking extra time to make the felling cut at stump level offers me no benefit whatsoever, since the trunk usually gets cut up so the skid steer loader can put it in the truck anyway. I do not care if the machine picks up a 3' piece or a 6' piece to put it in his truck and haul it to the dump.

If I'm felling a tree in a residential setting, I'm going to make the felling cut at the most comfortable and most accurate height. Not hitting obstacles is much more important to me than the size of the junk wood chunks. If there is the possibility that the trunk will be cut up for firewood, then I try to make the felling cut either one or two firewood rounds high. But most wood that is saved for firewood here ends up rotting before it is ever burnt.

[NeTree]

Other than ambiance, I can't imagine there's much need for firewood in a place with weather three times hotter than here.

[Skwerl]

There's a small market for bbq restaurants as well as some yankee homeowners who think they might need firewood come wintertime.

[stig]

in the woods we get fined if stumps are left to high. it is impressive if you can make good cuts with a short bar but id rather make 3 cuts than 5 to get the tree down;)

I'd rather use a saw with a 24 inch bar( which by the way is considered long here, but I fall a lot of the big stuff) and make 5 cuts, than have to carry a saw with a 40 inch bar all day!

We get fined for leaving the stumps too high too. Also for splitting logs and scraping the bark of standing trees.

[NeTree]

Up here there's also the "yuppie" market that buys a cord just to have it stacked all nice and pretty beside their electrically heated home. They call it "charming".

:roll:

[Al Smith]

Generally speaking seldom is a tree cut off at ground level around here ,on the fall .Unless the rare occasion it's cut for figure which would only be about 1 in a thousand .

If the woods is being cleared for a housing project etc the stumps are left high on purpose so a dozer or big track hoe can pop them out .

Yard trees they just put em on the ground and get a big saw to stump cut them . In comes the grinder ,in six months you can't tell a tree was ever there .

[Bodean]

We just stumpgrind the high stumps.

I'm learning things, I can't wait to try this apex bore cut.

Gord,
We pull alot of trees with machinery at my work, Thanks for the tip you mentioned earlier.

[vharrison]

Burn, thanks for sharing! Nice to see ya'll taking care of business!

[Altissimus]

Boring Cuts are NEVER Boring...

[Burnham]

Burnham, we always make the "German" or bore cut on the downside of the undercut.
Have you tried the hardhead wedges, the plastic wedges with a steel insert for driving. I find they beat anything else for sheer lifting power( except a jack, of course!)
They were totally unknown here until I started importing them from Bailey's and selling them to all the fallers I know.


Oh yes, Stig...they are a favorite of mine. I have only one complaint...they are heavy to pack around compared to a non-hardhead plastic wedge, for this ol' wimp :).

There is a potential downside as well...there is enough steel in those things that one must beware of cutting into. Greatest chance I have observed is if you have a pair well set in the backcut and decide you need to gut the hinge between them...easy to ruin a chain.

[Skwerl]

I sure am appreciating all this info. I just ordered some more wedges last week including a couple of those steel capped hardhead wedges. Looking forward to trying them out.
:)

[lumberjack]

Burn would die if he had to tote my wedge driver.

[Skwerl]

Much of my stump work involves removing fence paneling to gain access, so therefore my wedge driver is a 28 oz Estwing claw hammer. I bought an axe but never use it, the hammer is more useful in my 'neck of the woods'. ;)

[Burnham]

Burn would die if he had to tote my wedge driver.

:lol: Yeah, Carl showed it to me when we had dinner in Tuscaloosa, he had it in the trunk of his 'lil Honda Civic. I could barely lift it, and it made his car ride 4 inches lower on the side that the head was laying towards.

[Skwerl]

What is it, an anvil strapped to a length of tree trunk? :lol:

[Burnham]

Near 'bout. I think he stole it off of John Henry, the steel drivin' man.

[Bodean]

You're gonna love those hammerhead wedges, Skwerl.

I swing a 5-8ish pound Falling Boy.

[gf beranek]

Wedge driver? 5 pound square head "Stroh" Is there any other?

[Dave Shepard]

I used the trailer hitch off a truck once. :roll:


Dave

[Altissimus]

G.F.B ...I loved the way you used a rock in the Vid when your axe was probably back in the truck...I think it was cool that you showed your audience that even with pro's sometimes mistakes get made ... a rock off the ground...a cut piece of limbwwod (the Fred Flinstone club) can drive it in a pinch

[gf beranek]

You forgot the "battering ram" Dave

[thattreeguy]

Burnham
sweet pics of some of the older boys
i work with a group of 70yr+ guys on occasion
one fella still brings his gun sticks to the big trees
the other runs a prentice and man can he run that thing
those older fellas can be great to work with
i learn a lot from them
I like that he's smoking while falling,
thanks for the pics

[woodworkingboy]

I haven't bought any wedges for awhile, but I used to be able to get ones from Baileys that had a rectangular steel plug in the middle of the back of the wedge, instead of the whole back being covered in steel. There must be a name for them? They drive very good, maybe even less bounce, and less weight than the ones with the whole back face covered in metal. Bailey's doesn't seem to be carrying them any longer, and I can't find any advertised on the web. Anybody know if they are still available?

I have a 1/2" scar on my forearm from where the corner of a full steel wedge that wasn't maintained, shot back and bit me. All I barely saw was a red hot streak. Fortunately it didn't embed itself, just sliced in passing. It could easily have hit my eye. I think that the plastic ones should be maintained as well....I just take them to the grinder.

[Burnham]

Wedge driver? 5 pound square head "Stroh" Is there any other?

Tell, 'em Jerry...I've been trying to bring these greenhorns around for years, to no avail.
:lol:
;)

[stig]

Yes, Jerry and Burnham there are other options.
A 5 pound DSI ( Danish Steel Industry) hammer is one of them.
They stopped making this wonderful hammer about 25 years ago, but one can still find them at fleamarkets and garagesales. Every new apprentice I get go on a quest to find one, once they have tryed mine.
It has the perfect weight for driving wedges in big hardwood trees and the handle is thin enough to have the elasticity to absorb impact and give a little "whip-action" when you hit the wedge.
With a thick handle the impact travels back up into ones hands.
The hammer I use was given to me by the guy who taught me how to fall, back when I was a greenhorn, so it's a bit special to me.
It is pretty beat up, but it's hammered wedges in for over 50 years, and if I don't loose it, will last untill I fall my last tree..

[Burnham]

Nice, Stig...great history there, I'd keep on with it too if I were you.

There definately are local preferences and customs that impact our choices of tools.

Now I'd not be able to manage without the chopping edge on my faller's axe, but I have to deal with very thick, spongy bark on the older trees. If removing some of that to facilitate efficient wedging wasn't a frequent task, your hammer looks a treat.

Sqwerl's tiny lil' framing hammer, on the other hand, is just plain wrong on so many levels it near about defies my ability to be snooty about it enumerating them all :D.

;)

[lumberjack]

What is it, an anvil strapped to a length of tree trunk? :lol:


Pretty close. It'd bring the suck if I was working alongside mountain goats, but here it works dandy in several applications. I did use a 4lb contractor's hammer for a while, but I like the power of my current driver.

Head:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/DSC00663.jpg

Stick:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/DSC00664.jpg

[Altissimus]

Oh , the poor wedges:cry:

[stig]

The energy a given object (hammer!) hits with increases proportionally with the increase in weight, but squared to the increase in speed.
That is a formula that any martial artist or reloader should know.
In short, use a light hammer and some speed for the best result.

Burnham, in my neck of the woods the axe disappeared with the advent of the chainsaw, the trees don't have the thick bark, that you are used to, so an axe would only be good for splitting firewood, and I personally use my DSI hammer for that. Except for the really knotty stuff, then I cheat and use my 25 ton hydraulic log splitter!

[woodworkingboy]

Well, Carl's choice of hammers does provide job site security as well.

[Burnham]

The energy a given object (hammer!) hits with increases proportionally with the increase in weight, but squared to the increase in speed.
That is a formula that any martial artist or reloader should know.
In short, use a light hammer and some speed for the best result.

Burnham, in my neck of the woods the axe disappeared with the advent of the chainsaw, the trees don't have the thick bark, that you are used to, so an axe would only be good for splitting firewood, and I personally use my DSI hammer for that. Except for the really knotty stuff, then I cheat and use my 25 ton hydraulic log splitter!

You're making my case right on down the line, as far as head weight and the importance of head speed, Stig. How long is the handle on your DSI hammer? I'm betting if you split firewood with it then it's longer than my faller's axe, at 26 inches. The back side of the hammer face must be shaped about like a splitting maul, downsized...is that right?

Oh, and that's not cheating...that's being smart!!

[woodworkingboy]

If you look at the way most people use a hammer, they do so incorrectly.....by just wailing and not putting tension in their arm or arms to reduce bounce when at the point of impact. A lot of folks never pick up on that.

A small hammer used efficiently can be more effective than a large one used without the proper understanding. (old furniture maker's wisdom)

[Gord]

An axe head is the best shape for pounding wedges, especially if you've got them doubled, you can hit one at a time (or both) rather than smushing them with a rounder head such as a sledge. Less broken wedges also.
Not to mention what do you use to tidy up your wedges? That's what the other end of the axehead is for.

[lumberjack]

The energy a given object (hammer!) hits with increases proportionally with the increase in weight, but squared to the increase in speed...

That's true, E=MC^2. In reloading, power factor (mass and velocity compared directly) and bullet design matter a lot more than overinflated ft/lb measurements.

However, coming back to the real world. I can match the power of your 5 lb hammer by swinging mine 79% slower.

I leave for a Cal test in 6 hours or I'd put more effort into figuring out a baseline swing speed on a "normal" sized hammer.

I would like to restate that Burnham works in mountain goat habitat, and in that case I'd rethink my driving options.

[stig]

You're making my case right on down the line, as far as head weight and the importance of head speed, Stig. How long is the handle on your DSI hammer? I'm betting if you split firewood with it then it's longer than my faller's axe, at 26 inches. The back side of the hammer face must be shaped about like a splitting maul, downsized...is that right?

!

yep, it's 30 inches long and the head is shaped like a maul.

[stig]

An axe head is the best shape for pounding wedges, especially if you've got them doubled, you can hit one at a time (or both) rather than smushing them with a rounder head such as a sledge. Less broken wedges also.
Not to mention what do you use to tidy up your wedges? That's what the other end of the axehead is for.

Here we run into the beforementioned regional differences again.

We don't stack wedges, we stack steelplates under the wedges( this has been covered in another thread), I've just started trying out nylon plates to cut down on weight, since I'm not getting any younger.
Also almost everybody around here use either steel or aluminum wedges, they are kind of hard to trim with an axe.
I use hardhead wedges, they don't need cleaning up, which in my opinion is one of the benefits of using them, along with great driving capability.
It has been my experience that it takes a lot more force to get a large widecrowned hardwood tree moving than a large conifer, but I'm not sure those of you who spend your time pounding wedges into conifers agree.

[woodworkingboy]

One last post before snuggling my pillow:

Old chairmakers framing hammer I picked up outside of London, and heavier than it looks. Mostly used to drive wedges now. "Hardhead junior" wedge with steel insert. Those drive good!

G'night...

[stehansen]

That looks just like a horseshoe shaping hammer. Does it have one flat face and one slightly rounded face?

[Altissimus]

a whores shoe?

[squisher]

Jay even if that little sucker is heavy, it sure looks short to me.

[stehansen]

a whores shoe?

:D

[Burnham]

Jay even if that little sucker is heavy, it sure looks short to me.

Yeah, and the same for Brian's framing hammer, or Jonny's baby Eastwig axe...there is absolutely no way y'all are realizing wedges' full potential...not even a fraction.

No wonder y'all use a pull rope most of the time :D.

[sotc]

i use the back of my hand:drink:

[Burnham]

If I don't get off this subject pretty soon, a bunch of y'all are going to use the back of your hand on my noggin just to hush me up :lol:.

I think there must be 3 or 4 threads in the Tree Felling/Rigging forum where I'm on the soapbox ad nauseum on the "proper" felling axe.

I'll shut up now :).

[Skwerl]

Haahaahaahaa! Good one Willie. And you're ten feet tall and bulletproof, eh?
:lol:

[woodworkingboy]

Yes, one round face and one flat face on the hammer. The handle is pretty short alright, probably one reason why I'm always losing it in the leaves and scrub. "Wedge potential inhibiting", as Burnham suggests....I suppose that must be true...and there was that time with a back leaner setting back over a road and almost hitting a car stopped at the intersection, but in most cases it works OK.

I think that if I was knocking down leaners on a regular basis, I'd have to go for a big sledge, that is if Willie wasn't around.

[brendonv]

Amongst all the reading, I musta missed where I can buy a real wedge driver Burn?

Gotta link?

[Dave Shepard]

Bailey's carries a 5lb short handled axe. That the one you like Burnham?


Dave

[sotc]

Amongst all the reading, I musta missed where I can buy a real wedge driver Burn?

Gotta link?

buy my plane ticket and ill drive em:D cheap at twice the price!

[Burnham]

Amongst all the reading, I musta missed where I can buy a real wedge driver Burn?

Gotta link?

This came up in another of these wedge driver threads, I think the one I started titled something like "Bounce, why on earth does Wesspur not sell a proper fallers axe?" I posted a pic then, but I'm pretty sure this is one of the threads that lost attachments back in the crash...if anyone wants me to repost a pic of mine I could easily enough.

Here's a link to one supplier:
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=15655&catID=

Note that Bailey's also carries a 3 lb. head model...I'd go with the 5 lb. one myself.


Bailey's carries a 5lb short handled axe. That the one you like Burnham?


Dave

That one should do the trick, Dave. I got the one I'm currently using at the local logger's supply/saw shop about 20 years ago, more or less.

Jerry Beranek mentioned a specific manufacturer, Stroh. I think they are long gone as a business, but if you ever find one, grab it. Big striking surface.

I once inquired of Jer if he'd sell one of his to me...still hoping he might :). I'd pay a fair amount to have one, especially one from the hand of Mr. Beranek ;).

[gf beranek]

Ah yes. I remember you asking, Burnam. It's been a while since. I went to the shed to sort through the many battle axes I have acquired over the years. And the only other 5 pounders I found are another brand. I thought I had another Stroh in the bunch, but not. So the one Stroh is all I have.

If it would really make your day to have it I guess I could let it go to a good home, where I know it will be appreciated. Send me your address and I'll UPS it up. It's a short handle for working in the sucker clumps. Painted blue.

[Burnham]

Sending you a PM, Jerry.

[sotc]

haha, bill him later jerry!:lol:

[stig]

So now you'll have the same sort of special relationship to your wedge driver as I have to mine, Burnham.

[Burnham]

No kidding, Stig. This is gonna be extra special!

[woodworkingboy]

Burnham should open a bar and have the hammer hanging over the cash register with a little metal plaque explaining the origin. People would want to touch it for good luck....or he could just give them a little konk on the head for good luck.

[gf beranek]

On its way. Left Ft. Bragg 10/3 at 3 pm.

[Burnham]

Hey, Jerry, the package was sitting on my desk when I got to the Zigzag office this morning! It felt like Christmas!

Jerry really was going short on the handle on this baby...right at 20 inches from head to tail. I'd never in a million years change it, even if it is shorter than I'd choose :).

I can just decipher the makers stamp, "Stroax", "Sweden", and "5 Handmade JP". Note the artfully applied sawchain scoring...extra grip, ya know!

Maybe it's not quite like being in possession of the Beranek 090, but my oh my, I'm tickled pink. Thanks ever so much, Jer.

Here's a couple of pics.

[MasterBlaster]

I think Mel Gibson used that in Braveheart.

[sotc]

haha, if we keep at it burn, well get jerry up here in oregon to:lol:

[gf beranek]

"haha, if we keep at it burn, well get jerry up here in oregon to"

I wont be far from you this week end. Terri and I will be at Jed Smith to do some hiking through the groves. Will be fun.

Edit. First Time I saw a pic of my own axe on the net. Well, Burns axe now, I mean. Hey, Burn, she has a nice ring when you're driving wedges.

[TGCIII]

when u hit a tool, that doing the job it's made to do, by a person that understands that job, it just different. some folks bust sweet gum with a double-bit axe with great success. i cant do it, but i dont deny that it happens by those that truly understand the job aand its dynamics

[Burnham]

"haha, if we keep at it burn, well get jerry up here in oregon to"

I wont be far from you this week end. Terri and I will be at Jed Smith to do some hiking through the groves. Will be fun.

Edit. First Time I saw a pic of my own axe on the net. Well, Burns axe now, I mean. Hey, Burn, she has a nice ring when you're driving wedges.

Aw hell, Jerry...it'll always be your axe. I'm just the lucky guy using it now.

[sotc]

haha thats how i am with the saw, its jerrys saw:)

[Stumper]

If you haven't figured it out by now, Burnham has been correct in every thread about a proper faller's ax. 5 pound singlebit with short straight handle. Anything else is really just a stopgap. However, while a 5 pound Collins is standard, and I'm certain that Jerry's Strohs is very fine if you simply must have the ultimate in class and elegant performance you may be forgiven for buying an underweight Granfors.

[stig]

Gransfors makes a 3,2 kilos "maul" that is the closest thing to the old DSI hammer I use, that you can get today.
It is nice that there still is a place, where they forge axes and stuff the way they did, when grandpa was a kid.
www.gransfors.com

[Burnham]

I've looked at those before...man are they lovely.

[gf beranek]

There's a fixation I have with forging. It just feels so cool to see that red hot steel get pounded into shape, and to know that shape has strength in its grain like growth rings in a tree.

Hand forging is where it's at, but to see a crankshaft being forged in a rotating hammer has to be the coolest thing I ever seen. Talk about raw red hot steel and precision. Wow.

[Burnham]

I started a third hazard tree felling contract Monday...this one is on the west side of the Mt. Hood NF, where the brush and trees are dense and big. Some of the pics are kinda dark, not much light under that high canopy, sorry about that.

This outfit is using one cutter, a fairly young man, early thirties, so he's only been professionally cutting for 10 years or so...a good competant sawyer, but doesn't have as many tricks up his sleeve as the old guys. He's figured out alot of 'em though.

Notice his aluminum sheet axe scabbard that he wears in the small of his back...sweet setup. He told me he got it from a saw shop in northern Idaho. If anyone knows of a place to get one like it, please let me hear! I'd commission a purchase if possible.

Here's some pictures of him setting one up and laying her down.

[Burnham]

Sometimes there is just no real safe way to handle a hazard tree by saw work alone. Here's a nasty one, broken out partway up and leaning real heavy into a second tree...easy to get hurt or worse trying to trip this one from underneath. Fortunately we had good access, so Dan crippled it and then Leonard bumped it over with the excavator. Even so, there was some risk involved for both Dan in the crippleing and to Leonard and his machine...He told me not to worry, "I can catch it with the bucket it it comes back at me". :O Yeah, right. He's an awfully good operator...maybe he could...but the top didn't tip back. ;)

You can see how far Dan is staying back from the tree...useing every bit of that long bar to give him a smidge more running room.

[Burnham]

I mentioned that Dan had learned some of the tricks of the trade...here's one you don't see often any more.

Danny set a make-do springboard to get above the root flare and extreme goosepen in this big red cedar. I just got there in time to get one pic of the action :cry:.

[Skwerl]

B, I'm surprised you didn't pull out your throw line and put a rope in that top to pull it down. Or is this strictly up to them to handle it themselves?

I betcha if you get a couple closeup pictures of that axe scabbard, you could probably find someone to copy it fairly cheap. ;)

[Dave Shepard]

I'd like to know more about that axe sheath. Was it welded, riveted? I've done some TIG aluminum work, a lot of fun, if everything goes right.

[Burnham]

B, I'm surprised you didn't pull out your throw line and put a rope in that top to pull it down. Or is this strictly up to them to handle it themselves?

I betcha if you get a couple closeup pictures of that axe scabbard, you could probably find someone to copy it fairly cheap. ;)

It's up to them, Brian...though I'm free to make suggestions ;). If the excavator hadn't been there with good access, we could have done that. The contract is for hazard tree felling...if they decide it's too dangerous to do, they can ask me to delete the tree from the contract. If I agree, then that's what we do. Then I get to handle it myself later :D.


I'd like to know more about that axe sheath. Was it welded, riveted? I've done some TIG aluminum work, a lot of fun, if everything goes right.

It's riveted. I'll get some good close-ups of it...maybe I could get one made.

[Skwerl]

If it's riveted then you could make one yourself with a hacksaw and bench vise. All you'd need is a piece of aluminum (such as a traffic sign) for your raw material. :/:

[Burnham]

Probably right, Brian...I could even retain the YIELD text!

[Dave Shepard]

I could probably give it a shot, if I knew what I was making.;)

[Burnham]

I'll get some pictures and measurements, see what you think after that, eh?

[Dave Shepard]

Sounds good. I've got some 1/4" Al diamond plate, is that heavy enough?:lol:

[Burnham]

Sounds good. I've got some 1/4" Al diamond plate, is that heavy enough?:lol:

Ye gods :\:...though the bling look would be awesome ;).

It's made of pretty light-weight stock...maybe half as thick as Brian's traffic sign would be. I'll see if I can get a micronometer on it.

[Skwerl]

That's not my sign, Burnham. It belongs to the State of Oregon DOT. Look, it says so right at the bottom! :lol:

[Reddog]

Madsen's has those axe holders.

[Burnham]

Hey, thanks Red.

[Skwerl]

Reddog is right, I just found them on page 30 of the Madsen's catalog. They have 4 different sizes depending on your axe size, price is $20-$23.

[gf beranek]

Do they they fit the Stroaxe?

[Dave Shepard]

Swing it in there hard enough, it'll fit.

[bergsteiger]

Yeah call Madsen's Burnham. Of all people I'd have expected you to have a copy of their catalog.

http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo315/vaulter83/Axescabbard.jpg

[Burnham]

Yup, I'm gonna see about getting one...I used to keep a Madsen's catalog around, but when I changed duty stations a year and a half ago I culled out alot of resource materials. Even so, you'd think I would have noticed that item before. It worked slicker than you might think looking at the pic in the catalog, maybe that's why it didn't stick for me...or I just forgot like old people do :cry:.

Thanks for the help friends, and the offer to try to make one especially, Dave.

[bergsteiger]

It does look a little weird in the catalog but I think the weight of the axe head keeps it from falling out or moving around too much. I've thought about getting one too but when I'm in the woods falling its usually only a couple trees at a time so its not a big deal to carry an axe around.

[Burnham]

Before I bumped any other old theads forward, I asked the elders if anyone minded...only got positive responses, so here's another good one. This is the one where we explored the idea of boring vertically in under the front of the hinge to increase the hinge's ability to flex and thus function longer...in another thread wiley p identified the technique as a swizwell, or some such. And the whizzy as well, though we all missed the significance of it 'til these several years later when sotc brought that up in a thread of it's own.

[Burnham]

Here's where the whizzy thread back-tracked to this one.

http://gypoclimber.com/showthread.php?13702-Whizzy&p=418842&viewfull=1#post418842

[stig]

Boring horizontally will most certainly not increase flexibility!

Didn't you make this mistake once before:P

Thanks for bumping those threads BTW.
Seems like the ones you start always blossom into great discussions.
Makes for a good re-read.

[Burnham]

Yes I did, Stg. I must be orientationally challenged. Thanks, I'll fix it...again!