Felling cuts - level or diagonal cut first?

[Bounce]

I know it's been talked about before, but bear with me on this, I can be slow on the uptake. When I make a directional felling cut, I always start with the level cut first and then finish with the diagonal cut. I do this whether I'm making a traditional notch or Humboldt. The main reason I do this is because I can use the gunning sights on the saw so much easier to be precise with the direction. It also means that when the wedge is finally freed up it is under the bar, not on top of it which might cause a kickback. I worked with a guy last weekend who saw me do this and completely freaked out like I was about to kill myself. For the life of me I just can't figure out any benefit to making the diagonal cut first and finishing with the level cut, and my friend was unable to explain it so I could understand. What do you guys do and why?

Burnham and Gerry - I'm hoping you'll chime in here as you have more years of experience cutting trees down than I have dressing myself.

[sotc]

i make my level cut first weather its a humbolt or conventional. reason being i can make my saw level first and then gun it whre i want. if you make the angle first you have gun it first and level it second. the other way is much easier for me

[Thor's Hammer]

Diagonal first for me, but if horizontal feels best for some folks, good for them.

[brendonv]

Diagonal here too. No overlapping cuts or too deep.

[BostonBull]

Diaganol too, you can look down throught he diagonal cut while making the flat cut so theres no bypass. My $.02

[inztrees]

Diagonal here too. No overlapping cuts or too deep.
thats why I do it that way tooo

[NeTree]

Diagonal.

[Altissimus]

I tend to run my lower cut (whichever style) first, matching up with a top diag...

[lumberjack]

Same as Brendon and the like.

[gf beranek]

All things being equal, on the ground, for straight standing conifers it's the level undercut first..., for me.

Trees with side lean I always keep the undercut square to the trunk. With minor exceptions for demonstration purposes only.

Either way a square or level undercut sets the base line for my diagonal and back cut to follow.

Like Bounce says, " Trying to sight the gun with the diagonal is more difficult than on the horizontal."

Now up in the tree it's a different thing, I back-chain a lot of my face cuts when topping the tree from a right lateral position. It's just easier and blows the chips out the far side of the cut. But sometimes I will start with a diagonal. Sometime it's the arrangement of knots that I have to place the cut between that makes me start with the diagonal, but sometimes not. In that case it's just what ever feels right, or easier for me.

Now if it's going to be a squeeze to fit the top in a tight spot I will use the gunning sights and generally square and level the cut to the stem. However, as some of you may wonder about that, sighting to the horizon for a top to land in a space below requires a bit of trained eyeball to be truly accurate.

I'm really not strict on any firm rules in this business, because trees don't conform to strict rules either. However, when it comes to safety that's another thing.

There's much more to it than any single person knows!

[No_Bivy]

i'm gonna reverse next time, under...then diagonal.

[MasterBlaster]

I do like Sean does.

[Bounce]

Ok good. Glad to know I wasn't missing something huge here. This guy just made it sound like there was some tremendous safety advantage to making the diagonal cut first. Maybe he was talking about it being easier to avoid cutting to far with the second cut because you can look down the diagonal. I think I'll keep on doing what I have been just because I'm more comfortable with that, but I like Gerry's point about trees not conforming with any rules. Best to be flexible I guess.

[Bodean]

There are people here at work that dump trees with the diaganol cut first.

I've never seen that before working here.

Horizontal undercut first here.

[CurSedVoyce]

Pends on my "feeling" after I have read and talked to the tree and set up my fall line ... sounds funny I know ... But hey.. Its like sayin a prayer and things turn out alright....
Every tree is different......

[TC3]

I like doing the diagonal cut first 'cause it freaks customers out. Mind you I do tiny removals, no bigger than my Silky can handle... but have taken out up to 10" diameter. People get that really worried look on their face... lol

[Old Monkey]

I am Forest Service trained so I start with the horizontal cut first for all the reasons mentioned by all the sensible posters above. Doing the diagonal cut first is different and wrong and must opposed right thinking people.

[GASoline71]

Horizontal (Gunning) cut first. easier to sight in the lay...

Gary

[stig]

This is really interesting!
I've always assumed that it was a geographical difference, that in North America they cut the horizontal first and in Europe the diagonal.
Now I find out that it is more of a personal preference.

Personally I do the diagonal first( being europaean!!). As for using the sighting or gunning lines on the saw, after 30+ years of falling, I simply look where I want the tree to fall when I start cutting, and that is where it falls.
Kind of like shooting a handgun instinctively by just pointing it at the target without really aiming. I can feel when I've got it lined up.

[Thor's Hammer]

I am Forest Service trained so I start with the horizontal cut first for all the reasons mentioned by all the sensible posters above. Doing the diagonal cut first is different and wrong and must opposed right thinking people.

Bleagh. thats a nasty stinky sucky way of doing it. I'm going to get the UN to make you change your ways.

[Al Smith]

Bottom first then the top . Less change of pinching the bar when the wedge drops .

[Blinky]

Usually do the diagonal first since it's easier to avoid a bypass... but I wouldn't want to be opposed by right thinking gummint trained folks. I guess I'll try it the other way for a while and see what happens.

[JIML]

Either or.. I do them both ways.

[Old Monkey]

Bleagh. thats a nasty stinky sucky way of doing it. I'm going to get the UN to make you change your ways.

You are such the tattle tale. Next time mom leaves us alone in the house you are going to get such the beating, you just wait and see!

[Rotax Robert]

Bottom first then the top . Less change of pinching the bar when the wedge drops .


Same here, especially on large trees where there is considerable size and weight of the wedge.

[Thor's Hammer]

You are such the tattle tale. Next time mom leaves us alone in the house you are going to get such the beating, you just wait and see!

Ohh you big bully. I'm going to get the UN to take all your guns away too!

[sotc]

settle down or youll both get a lickin!

i dont normally worry about the wedge pinching, usually poke a stick in there to keep it from dropping, or pull out early and smack it with an axe

[Magnus]

Top cut first.
Never more than 1/3 of trunk in the face.

Broken hinges is a big no-no.

Safest way I know is top cut first, bore in and go around. You have to be very careless to damege the hinge if top cut is first. If you are not correct, you can adjust the face somewhat after wedge is out...

There is more chance of pinch if bottom is taken first, with hole tree standing too, much more weight.

Weight on the weges of the trees we cut here are not enugh to pinch the bar much. We only have up to a meter tree's here.
Sometimes bigger, but on rare occasions.

[stehansen]

I do the bottom cut first. Sorry Thor, I'm aligning (pun intended) myself with the goose-stepping Forest Service guys.

[sotc]

how dare you call me a pine cone copper! (ducking so burnham cant slap the back of my head) :/:

[Blinky]

settle down or youll both get a lickin!

[...] usually poke a stick in there to keep it from dropping, or pull out early and smack it with an axe

That just sounds kinda... I dunno... selfish. :/:

[sotc]

i was trying to word it so it didnt sound bad, guess i failed:lol:

[Stumper]

Usually the flat cut first since it seems easier to set the gun........but I occassionally do an angled cut first......ususally on dinky stuff or when working at height. Whatever feels right. -I try not to overanalyze some stuff but concentrate on the lean, weight , wood quality and the lay and let my subconcsious git-r-dun.

[Mr. Sir]

...As for using the sighting or gunning lines on the saw, after 30+ years of falling, I simply look where I want the tree to fall when I start cutting, and that is where it falls.
... I can feel when I've got it lined up.


I do the same thing simply from years of experience, but it looks funny to read it like that, almost like a Star Wars thing: "Luke, use the force." ;)

But I usually make the bottom cut first.

[squisher]

I do not agree with Brett.:D

But I do make my flat cut first, same reason easier to gun imo. When circumstances are tight and my insurance is on the line I don't usually rely on the force, I rely on geometry and get right down and gun with the sight on the saw. I make sure it's perfect and then make my diagonal cut line up properly.

[GASoline71]

Usually do the diagonal first since it's easier to avoid a bypass... but I wouldn't want to be opposed by right thinking gummint trained folks. I guess I'll try it the other way for a while and see what happens.

That's what the dogs on a saw are for mang... dog in at the kerf on the horizontal (gunning) cut and make that second (angle) cut. Let the dogs do the geometry for you...

...clear as mud?

Gary

[stig]

I do the same thing simply from years of experience, but it looks funny to read it like that, almost like a Star Wars thing: "Luke, use the force." ;)

.

I rewrote that 3 times before posting it, trying to make it sound less goofy!

[Bounce]

Here's a question for those of you that like to make the diagonal cut first - if you aren't in touch with the force and can't instinctively aim the tree (say you have only 10 years of experience), how do you know precisely where it's going to fall? Is it possible to be precise and make the diagonal cut first? If so, how?

[Skwerl]

On trunks over 3' diameter, I still haven't figured out how to be precise no matter which cut I make first. I always end up having to make an adjustment or two to get the notch right. :roll:

[Magnus]

Do you make top cut in one motion or shift positions to eash side of tree?
If you cut top cut first it is no danger if you cut a bit uneven or two deep.
Felling cut, bottom face cut and hinge should be above in any case.

Open faces L shaped almost is what control best for me.
Need to wedge more this way perhaps, but there is little chance of pinch in the face and driving a wedge is alway's standard on big tree's anyway...

[Jonseredbred]

On trunks over 3' diameter, I still haven't figured out how to be precise no matter which cut I make first. I always end up having to make an adjustment or two to get the notch right. :roll:

I still have the wedges I won from Burnham if you need some help steering.

[Thor's Hammer]

I find it much easier to 'instinctively' sight the tree for an accurate fell using the top cut first. The little sights on the saw work just as well diagonally as horizontally.
But thats probably because I'm an enlightend european, and euro stuff is naturally superior. :D

[CurSedVoyce]

Sites do work well on both cuts.. .I do often make my horizontal first to sight in well. I will also make a diagonal cut first often with a open face (birds mouth) cut as both ar diagonal. I do a lot of leaners as bull pines are high populous here. As is live oak. As far as felling accurately ... Practice... Start small and work up. When in doubt, Pull line in the tree or a couple to make sure. Wedges are a must.... But most of it is practice in your cuts and sighting, reading the tree, judging the weight. I still win 6 packs and 12 packs from my team by hitting a target... :)
Also ... on your back cut.. you can adjust by how much wood you leave in the hinge on what side.... Cut slow... watch how the tree is leaning as you cut.. it will tell you all you will need to know to finish the cut. Does all this make sense... All else fails... ask Burnam.... LOL
I would love to spend a day felling with Burnam... or a week .. ORRRRR... LOL He da man on felling far as I am concerned.. No offence guys.. .

[Skwerl]

No argument here, Stephen. Heck, Burnham has forgotten more about felling than I'll ever know. :)

[CurSedVoyce]

Heck ... where is Burnam??? I aint seen a whole lot of text from him last couple days....

[Al Smith]

On trunks over 3' diameter, I still haven't figured out how to be precise no matter which cut I make first. I always end up having to make an adjustment or two to get the notch right. :roll: Trot on down to Lowes and get two 8 foot furring strips and make a set of gunning sticks . If you learn how to use them you can drive a stake with a tree ,well sometimes .;)

[Ax-Man]

Trot on down to Lowes and get two 8 foot furring strips and make a set of gunning sticks . If you learn how to use them you can drive a stake with a tree ,well sometimes .;)

I am not a logger or faller and I don't pretend to be one. The statement Al made is probaly more important than which cut goes first . The sticks align the center of the notch and that is way the stem will fall. If the spar or stem lands flat and does not bounce one way or the other look how the trunk relates to the notch. The top of the stem or spar will be in line with the center of the notch.

If you don't want to use gunning sticks take a tape measure and measure across the notch. Mark the center of the center of the notch with the tip of the chainsaw. This will be line of fall the tree will follow if the notch has been cut correctly and all other things pertaining to the tree are good to go for a one cut drop . After awhile you don't need the tape measure eyeballing it comes just about as close. I have even taken my saw and laid it on the ground with the tip pointing to the center mark and then step backed to see that the bar is dividing the center of the notch evenly on both sides. This gives you a better visual sighting of where the spar will fall. A little unconventional method from the norm but works for me anyway.

I played around with this method a couple of years ago and found it to be very accurate for me verses using the gunning sights. I use this method when I need to be on the right on the money. I never have been able to get the hang of using sights all that well. I am not a faller by any means. They would throw me off compared to just plain old sighting by eye and cutting the notch. Maybe I am missing the finer points of using them I dunno.

I have cut notches both ways. I don't see a big difference . For me top cut first works the best followed by the level or floor cut. But lately to eliminate a stump cut I do it more the conventional way. Bottom cut first followed by top cut.

[sawinredneck]

Funny!! I do what I think the tree needs! Usually the diagonal first, then the horizontal.
I keep hearing about them even had it explained a time or two, but I still don't know what "gunning sights" on a saw are!:?

[CurSedVoyce]

If you look at the saw..... there is a line drawn across the top and side of the starter housing... On Stihl ... On Husky its a line that is formed in the plastic across the filter housing and starter housing. This is the gunning sight... Line points to the direction of fall... or if you are bucking wood... even with the trunk of the tree... sorry I dont have a pic....
It is 90 degrees from direction of the bar

[sotc]

here ya go andy

[gf beranek]

"When you're gunning the tree for the lay, Jer , you gun the top" Jack Brooks RIP.

Never truer words said.

[Stumper]

"When you're gunning the tree for the lay, Jer , you gun the top" Jack Brooks RIP.

Never truer words said.

:thumbup:

[sawinredneck]

And here I thought those were "racing stripes"!!!!
Thanks Willie.

[Husky D]

Here's a question for those of you that like to make the diagonal cut first - if you aren't in touch with the force and can't instinctively aim the tree (say you have only 10 years of experience), how do you know precisely where it's going to fall? Is it possible to be precise and make the diagonal cut first? If so, how?

Bounce as others have said use the sights on the top of the casing as well or what i do on small to medium sized trees is lean your left shoulder on the tree and put your saw on the trunk to start your top diagonal cut. As long as you remember the felling direction is 90 degrees to the guidebar (which you almost make with your body position in relation to the saw) it isnt difficult to master. I used to make the bottom cut first purely to get as low on the stump as possible for timber but training people now find we advise top then bottom to try to avoid over cuts by looking in the top cut as others mentioned. Most important of all is confidence in any technique but aware of different ones for different circumstances. I've played around with the humbolt mainly for fun and perhaps need larger tree's to help but find it hard to master!:(

[Altissimus]

There is a book out.... wait a minute, I think I remember the name, it's coming back to me now!...Oh yeah, "The Fundamentals of General Tree Work" written by a fellah named Beranek...Seems to cover this!

[pete mctree]

Angle cut first for conventional, flat for humbolt. Angles right, cuts accurate and meeting correctly. hinge appropriate and as desired are more critical

[Burnham]

All my early training was to make the horizontal cut first, whether conventional or humbolt style. Maybe because of that I never could get comfortable with the idea of making the angled cut first.

I don't think I can imagine myself accurately gunning the lay from the very beginning of the angled cut and not having an easy way to re-aim...swinging in on the horizontal allows fine-tuning the gun from beginning to end, and I often do some minor tweaks as I finish at the hinge, either on the off-side or near-side.

For what it's worth, Doug Dent once would have expected a cutter to make the horizontal cut first...he even will refer to it as the "gunning cut". But in my re-cert. classes of more recent years he has allowed as how he doesn't care which you do first, so long as the results are satisfactory. Never seen him do the angled cut first himself, but anyway...

I first heard about making the angled cut first on arbo websites about 2000...shook my head at the foolishness of it...but I tried it a few times and I made it work, I'm just not comfortable with it.

As far as the assertion that siting down the angled cut to watch for the bar so as to not bypass and create a dutchman, I reckon that's true. But if you fail to leave the end of the angled cut level, or fail to make the horizontal cut level, you will not come out right...and we all know that it's easy to fail in achieving a level cut. So only one single aspect of forming a proper face/hinge is assisted by angled cut first technique.

I just check the off-side as I near completion, and watch for the bar coming parallel to the hinge to guage when to stop the angled cut before bypassing the horizontal cut.

It works for me. If doing it the wrong way works for you...go for it :P:D;).

[GASoline71]

I check the offside as well a few times through the second (angled) cut too Burnham. To see how I'm doin' on my lineup. I also have learned over the years that you have to put more angle on your bar than seems neccessary on that second cut. It is easier to come up short and clean it up, than it is to be long and cut a dutchman...

Unless you are doin' the dutchman on purpose... ;)

Gary

[squisher]

Y'all stop to check how your angled cut is going?:roll:

Sheesh I thought I was in the company of cutters.:P

[GASoline71]

LMAO... I never said nothin' about stoppin'...

When ya got arms like Sasquatch, it's easy to look around to the other side of the tree... :lol:

How do you puny guys do it? :P

Gary

[squisher]

Real question is when you stop to check what's happening on the other side of the tree...................which way do you walk around?:/:

[Paul B]

Dutch man?

[sotc]

haha i see a dutchman now!
gary, do you just reach around and feel the chain?:lol:

[Stumper]

Dutch man?

Dutchmen are bad. Bad Paulie.

[woodworkingboy]

Y'all stop to check how your angled cut is going?:roll::P

Yeah, sometimes when it's a heavy tree with back lean that is being pulled. I might want to gander around the other side before giving the final ok to pull, after the tree has been brought up to tension and cut some more. Kind of a little mental check-list.

Why is a Dutchman bad, other than that a good part of the time they don't work?

[squisher]

Umm if you're giving the final ok to pull, I hope you're not still working on the angled cut.:P

And a dutchmen is a whole other thread. It's basically when the two cuts of your undercut don't meet up properly. This compromises the hinge and will 'steer' the tree or cause the hinge to 'pop', which unless you know the effects and are trying to use it to your advantage is a very bad thing.

Dutchmen = slang for messed up undercut.

[Stumper]

WWB, I would hope that you are not having someone pull while you are stll making your facecut.
As to why Dutchmen are bad... Have you seen Paul B?;)
Deliberate use of a Dutchman has a place in precision felling. A Step Dutchman in particular can be counted on to generally do some work. Swings are more complicated, and for most of us more "iffy". Accidentally placed kerf dutchmen in the face cut are simply bad- Like Paulie B the Dreadful Dutchman.:D

[GASoline71]

Umm if you're giving the final ok to pull, I hope you're not still working on the angled cut.:P

Nope...

Gary

[Bounce]

Anybody know why they call it a dutchman? It's not like we call it a Scandinavian or a Norseman. Somebody actually chose to single out the Dutch. :lol:

[woodworkingboy]

The term probably is derived from early immigrants involved in tree felling....likely a racial slur or prejudice that found it's way into general use as the name for a technique. There are a number of names like that applied to tools or techniques in construction or shipping related trades, where a lot of different nationalities came into contact. It may have been a hateful thing, or just good natured bantering. I think it may be an old carpentry term that moved over to logging.

[squisher]

What about 'school marm'.:/:

[Bodean]

East coaster at work....................with one of those diagonal jobbers.

[sotc]

What about 'school marm'.:/:

haha i know that one!:D

[RIVERRAT]

Dutchmen are bad. Bad Paulie.
Except when you are subbing for some cajey O'l asshole.

Then I do them on purpose every time...only while they are there watching.... of course:/:

[Jamin Mayer]

For the life of me I just can't figure out any benefit to making the diagonal cut first and finishing with the level cut... What do you guys do and why?

Angled cut first then horizontal cut with conventional.

And my reason is this: I took a chainsaw safety and felling class taught by Ron Hartill and sponsored by Husqvarna. What I learned from Ron was the idea of placing the top angled cut in first is beneficial because when you are cutting your horizontal cut to complete the notch you can see through the angled cut to watch for the tip of your bar. This way you cannot bypass your cut in your notch and you end up with a perfect notch.

[Jamin Mayer]

Ok good. This guy just made it sound like there was some tremendous safety advantage to making the diagonal cut first.

Yeah, he sounds way too anal about it. Because safety isn't the issue. If someone can make the notch well and get the tree to fall exactly where a faller aimed, it doesn't matter the order in the long run.

[Jamin Mayer]

And FTR, it is not difficult at all to use the gun sight with the angled cut first. People do it all the time.

[Jamin Mayer]

Who is Ron Hartill?

http://www.hawkeyecollege.edu/faculty/trogers/Chain%20Saw%20article.htm

http://www.wdmoore.ca/articles/041%20Jan%2074.htm

[sotc]

you can look through the level cut also;)

[Jamin Mayer]

you can look through the level cut also;)


I agree. However, with a angled cut first, you don't have to crouch down to watch the bar;).

I'm not a stickler about the subject, but I do like learning from people who have mastered something. And I'll do what they say is best.

And it goes down the point I stated before. Basically, "what ever floats your boat." :drink:

[sotc]

yup, i was shocked to see how many do the angle first but there must be something to it that i dont understand. i try and listen to every one and use what works for me

[Burnham]

Angled cut first then horizontal cut with conventional.

And my reason is this: I took a chainsaw safety and felling class taught by Ron Hartill and sponsored by Husqvarna. What I learned from Ron was the idea of placing the top angled cut in first is beneficial because when you are cutting your horizontal cut to complete the notch you can see through the angled cut to watch for the tip of your bar. This way you cannot bypass your cut in your notch and you end up with a perfect notch.

I'll say it again...just because you can see that point and stop before you bypass the first kerf does not mean you have formed a perfect face. For that to happen the first cut must be stopped perfectly level and the second cut must be started perfectly level...or both have to be on a matched angle relative to the horizon, should that be your goal.

In either case, perfectly matching that angle must be achieved as well as stopping before bypass.

At least that's the way it seems to me.

[squisher]

To me too. I see your point Jammin about eyeing the horizontal cut to not bypass by doing the angle cut first. But I see a greater advantage in being able to easily alter your direction of the hinge(fall) right down to the last little bit of cutting with the horizontal cut first while still easily keeping everything level. My head is starting to hurt a little over all of this.:|:

[JIML]

I find myself on bigger trees, that are alot more than the bars length in diameter, getting my cuts close, then cutting the face in half and busting it out with an axe. then clean up from there. Biggest bar I got is a 3 footer and I will use a 28" as much as possible,

[Stumper]

Whatever method is used some faces are going to get wonky...... and they can be dressed/straightened up. some folks are going to rave about efficiency and professionalism if you "waste" time filleting off a slice on on corner of a face to fix it...... whatever. If there is a fat 45 degree window for the lay of a balanced tree then slap dash and go. When it really matters I'll spend a few extra minutes dressing and cleaning and checking the gun so that everything is perfect.
"Perfect faces make for perfect falls"

[gf beranek]

Out in the woods things can get pretty lose and wild. When you start the morning off getting a tree hung up it pretty much sets tone for the rest of the day.

"Dang, I knew I should have cleaned out that undercut"

[treesandsurf]

You 'angled cut first' folks are selling whacky tabacky! :P

I always make the horizontal first as that's how I first learned, and just feels right. Guess that's like most things in tree work, but there's always room for learning. 8)

Not sure if other people here do the same, but I've been in the habit of setting my horizontal cut first, then setting the dawgs in one corner of the top angle cut and working that cut all the way over, if that makes any sense. But I will say that I have a noticeable tendency to make my faces too deep (exceeding the standard 1/3 many times). :|:

jp:D

[woodworkingboy]

I always do the horizontal cut first unless messing around, my brain goes tilt when doing it in reverse. After reading this thread, I tried gunning the angled cut as well, and it seemed to help give precision. Thanks for the tip!

Some talk about using a Dutchman....I think I get more tendency for the tree to swing by leaving more holding wood on one side. I guess it's basically the same principle as a Dutchman. Probably you could do both to increase the effect. Jerry might have mentioned that in his book, can't remember and mine's currently out on loan. The pages are just about to start falling out.

[NeTree]

yup, i was shocked to see how many do the angle first but there must be something to it that i dont understand. i try and listen to every one and use what works for me

Simply put, either you can cut accurately or you can't. :)

I have cut the bottom first, and the top first, and really... I can pound stakes in the ground all day either way. :P

I prefer doing the top (angled cut) first because it's faster to get that precision gun than to make the horizontal, creep it in some more, check, creep it in some more, etc. (It may seem fine for one or two trees, but after 60 or 70 it really eats up alot of your day!)

Doing the top first, just aim carefully and cut, then blow out the notch floor. (I've never really noticed any trouble from the wedge of wood on the bar.)

And I'm not just talking about trees in the middle of the woods with no targets, either. ;)

[Al Smith]

I Doing the top first, just aim carefully and cut, then blow out the notch floor. (I've never really noticed any trouble from the wedge of wood on the bar.)

Most of the time you probabely won't experiance a problem .Then all of the sudden that golden BB that damned near removed my buddies fingers last week when he dropped 200 pounds of oak on his bar .:O

[Dave Shepard]

I've always started with the horizontal cut first. I set the dogs about where I want the cut to finish and sweep the bar around until the site lines up with the lay. I used to then try to judge the diagonal from the top of the cut and hope if would meet up with the horizontal cut. I would often have some cleanup to do.:roll: At first, I didn't understand the diagram in Jerry's book about the roll axis and tilt axis and all of that, until I saw it being done in "Old Growth". Then it clicked. The first time I tried it, it was one of those "Holy crap, it works!" moments.:lol: Now, after I make the horizontal cut, I swing the saw out without moving the dogs, point it towards the lay, and tilt it up for the diagonal and sweep it around again.

I have seen guys hold the saw level, at the top of the diagonal, gun the saw to the lay, and then carefully tilt the saw for the diagonal. It seemed to work ok, but there was still some trimming going on to make it perfect. These were usually trees that had a tight lay.


Dave

[sotc]

Simply put, either you can cut accurately or you can't. :)

I have cut the bottom first, and the top first, and really... I can pound stakes in the ground all day either way. :P

I prefer doing the top (angled cut) first because it's faster to get that precision gun than to make the horizontal, creep it in some more, check, creep it in some more, etc. (It may seem fine for one or two trees, but after 60 or 70 it really eats up alot of your day!)

Doing the top first, just aim carefully and cut, then blow out the notch floor. (I've never really noticed any trouble from the wedge of wood on the bar.)

And I'm not just talking about trees in the middle of the woods with no targets, either. ;)

never seen a faller out here cut the angle first, id think if it were that much time savings at least a few would:roll:

[Thor's Hammer]

never seen a faller out here cut the angle first, id think if it were that much time savings at least a few would:roll:

Never seen a production sawman use the horizontal cut first here either....:/:

[sotc]

just crazy:D

[Stumper]

just crazy:D


Crazy? Good heavens man, you are a master of understatement! Ed is a Welshman!

[sawinredneck]

Crazy? Good heavens man, you are a master of understatement! Ed is a Welshman!

"Wales, the country, not the animal!!!":P
Ed should get it:

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[Thor's Hammer]

I'm not Welsh boyo - I just live here...

[Stumper]

I have but one query,-do you drink with Welshmen?

[CurSedVoyce]

I think we could all just go round with what first and last.. what feels right or not... how we were taught... Personally... I prefer to try everything and perfect it. I have the perfect (not that everyone does) classroom.. I get to do trees out in the middle of nowhere and not under anyones scrutiny... I get to practice different styles and cuts on the customers dime with no risk but to myself.. So yeah.. I practice even a dutchman and see what my roll and angle parameters and limits are.. TG.... I seen some guys up here make them dance right down into what burn pile I pick.. I want to be that good and proficient at each cut...
But thats just me....
In regular falls ... you bet I go with how I was taught and get it right with the scrutiny of the customer. Or if I am teaching my crew....
Like I said .. I am lucky I have the luxury of experimenting in open places, and having guys like you all in this forum laying it out there in words and diagram to add to my knowlege..
Thanks BTW
Good to see you in here Burnam BTW....

[Magnus]

I don't think I can imagine myself accurately gunning the lay from the very beginning of the angled cut and not having an easy way to re-aim...swinging in on the horizontal allows fine-tuning the gun from beginning to end, and I often do some minor tweaks as I finish at the hinge, either on the off-side or near-side.



You have marks for aming on top of the saw, but also on starter.
No matter if you make top or bottom it is not the saw doing the aming.
:D8):P:lol:

The only reason I can see to prefer the top cut first is that you easyer feel when you are thru and this makes it harder to cut in to the hinge.
Since the fell cut is a bit higher than bottom cut it is not really all that important unless you are in a tight spot...

When I do fell cut I try to bore cut as often as possible and if it is not leaning against felling direction, I try to use trigger felling as it gives more control.

I never make big faces, I rater put a wedge or two in or the "Step-on-Iron" if it is smaller.

Here we make very open faces and try to keep the hinge intact all the way to prevent fibre pull and direction of fall.

Stump jumpers is a big no-no here...