Weak Oak

[RIVERRAT]

I mentioned the weak crotch to my customer. The husband & wife became quite concerned. I am sure like myself most here have seen much worse.

This oak is heavily shaded on one side by another oak. The neighbors house would be a target.

Just wanted to hear what some here would do. I am leaning toward weight reduction.

[arborworks1]

Definetly reduction. Cabling would be good insurance. A steel rod above the crotch as well.

Nice looking tree, Looks well cared for.

[Old Monkey]

That doesn't look too bad to me considering that its an oak. It kind of looks like the two tops bend towards each other higher up an try to balance themselves some.

[MasterBlaster]

It looks fine to me.

[RIVERRAT]

If we didnt get the wind & bad ice storms every 4-6 yrs. I wouldn't be worried about it......One other thing worth mentioning this is a Pin Oak. Brittle wood for an oak.

[treesandsurf]

It's hard to tell from your pictures.

Check out the bark at the area where the two co-dom's separate. When there are 'pushed out' furrows it is usually a sign of a sound attachment. Thump the area to listen for decay and pull away any debris and inspect deep into the union area.

At first glance looks like a candidate for end-weight reduction and dynamic cabling.

More pics! 8)

jp:D

[RIVERRAT]

Ya I wasn't happy with my pics either.

The second illustration from the left with bark inclusion is pretty much what I am dealling with. If you enlarge the pic of the crotch you can see it.

[Bodean]

I'd do nothing and monitor it, Maybe just a teeney bit of end weight reduction on the target side.

The crotch looks pretty nice from your picture.

[RIVERRAT]

I'd do nothing and monitor it, Maybe just a teeney bit of end weight reduction on the target side.

The crotch looks pretty nice from your picture.
That was my suggestion to them.

[CurSedVoyce]

Think I would use Cobra (dynamic cabling) to cable it so to speak and safe guard the neighbors house in case. Ice is a serious issue and heavy. I may be reading the crotch wrong, but I do a lot of oaks here and I don't like anything that is a threat to a structure. We get wet snow here and it has the same result as ice on the oaks. Would also want to know if other limbs more horizontal are also a threat by what I saw in your pics. I also agree with the reduction and some thumping to test the soundness of the wood.

[Bodean]

I think your picture's fine.

Appears to be nice taper, the leads don't look to tall past the crotch.

The ears of co dom crotches are something to look at sometimes too.

Any codom is "bad" but jurisprudence would tell me to lighten up the target side ever so gingerly. Maybe some widows too.

When people prune for high winds and such on a mature tree >40 years old, I think the tree may be accustomed to the wind by now.

That's just me over here saying that.

[treesandsurf]

Great learning opportunity, thanks for posting.

Would the fact that the two codominate leaders are of similar size in diameter be something to consider as well? It has been stated that laterals of close to equal size of the parent trunk form weaker attachments, maybe a factor here as well?

Thats just me way over here saying that.

jp:D

[Frans]

Tree care really does change according to the area you live in. Like Bodean says, for us on the West Coast, that tree looks fine. No need for alarm.
But with the ice storms, well thats a whole 'nuther ball game.

IMO, dynamic cabling is best suited for younger trees. Here in my area the oaks get so big that only steel EHS cable is really up to the task of holding the tonnage or re- directing the tonnage in the case of failure away from a target.
But with the ice, maybe it is better.
Does the Cobra do well being frozen? Or does it over time become brittle?

[Drella]

Cabling, high within crown. 1/2" lags- 3/8 soft cable. Done.

[Frans]

"If your only tool is a chainsaw, then all trees are firewood"

Often we rush into 'remedies' to 'correct' defects. When in fact, the tree has lived for years and years on it's own.

[treesandsurf]

Your leaping logic can be tricky to follow, Frans.

Sure, trees live on their own without arborists, but isn't it our job in this situation to manage a potential risk to an acceptable level so that the tree environment can blend well with the human environment?

Who mentioned anything about chainsaws?

jp:D

[Frans]

The chainsaw reference is a quote by someone, forget who. Shigo or Matteck or someone.

I too am in the tree business, working trees is what I do for a living. But... all too often we jump in with 'cures' when maybe, just maybe, the tree is doing fine on it's own.

Think of the pruning rules. At first the I.S.A stated remove no more than a third, now a fourth. Rules change, best management practices change.
At our community college Britton Tree was the company managing the mature oaks.

Each and every one has multiple cables. One tree (I counted) 30 cables! Some even with big springs.

But like I said earlier, each region has different climates. I know next to nothing about the effects of an ice storm.

If you can follow my logic, your one up on me! :)

[treelooker]

Steel cable 2/3 to the top would be good insurance. Lags mean wide holes; wirestops mean narrow holes--nobrainer there. Good observation on the branch growth self-correcting the codom attachment.

dynamic cables are good when movement would build strengthening tissue. I don't see the split getting better by movement, hence the steel.

You'd have to prune a lot to lessen the strain on the defect. A lot of wounding and disfigurement vs. two 7/16" holes drilled through sapwood.

[lumberjack]

I've wondered if the tree would become dependent on the steel cable.

Hence, I would Cobra it. No damage trumps your 7/16" holes! :P

[Frans]

Lags mean wide holes; wirestops mean narrow holes--nobrainer there.

Doesn't the wire stop always work against the bark, and the cable slip back and forth in the hole?
Seems like it would continously abrade the bark at the point of the wire stop, and continously widen the hole for the cable.?

[RIVERRAT]

Steel cable 2/3 to the top would be good insurance. Lags mean wide holes; wirestops mean narrow holes--nobrainer there. Good observation on the branch growth self-correcting the codom attachment.

dynamic cables are good when movement would build strengthening tissue. I don't see the split for noe
You'd have to prune a lot to lessen the strain on the defect. A lot of wounding and disfigurement vs. two 7/16" holes drilled through sapwood.

First time, some time ago that I read your post I thought you where a hippy. A by all meens save the planet type. I have over time come to respect some of your thoughts. You are knowledgeable.

Whith that said, there is no way in HELL I would sell or tell a client of mine to cable this tree. Simply because that lead will fail with Cobra or any other method used in a few years.
Yes it is fine for now.
5 yrs. from this point in time things will be much different with this situation.

[RIVERRAT]

"If your only tool is a chainsaw, then all trees are firewood"

Often we rush into 'remedies' to 'correct' defects. When in fact, the tree has lived for years and years on it's own.
Frans I greatly appreciate your thoughts on this. But we need to remember when sidewalks, streets, & houses are planted under trees things change.

Yes Trees have lived for years with out fellas running through them with saws. But the above mentioned facts change things a bit:)

[treesandsurf]

Those beautiful old oaks on the JC campus are a sad situation indeed. Poor old things got all their interior growth stripped out and new cables added when I was a student there three years ago.

Rather than reduce end weight they reduced beginning weight!

One tree, ten different arborists and ten different opinions. :)

jp:D

[treelooker]

there is no way in HELL I would sell or tell a client of mine to cable this tree. Simply because that lead *will* fail with Cobra or any other method used in a few years. ..
5 yrs. from this point in time things *will* be much different with this situation.

:?

Please explain these 2 "will"s, and loan me your crystal ball. I do not understand how anyone can be certain of either. how can the tree exert over 7 tons of force to break a 3/8" EHS cable?

snarf, abrasion is a possibility (that is lessened by lining up the holes right), but won't the tree grow callus in response, like it does when 2 branches rub?

Carl, dynamic cable rubs where it loops around, needs frequent adjusting, and is vulnerable to rodent predation. It has a place where movement will strengthen a fork, but that does not seem to be the case here.

[lumberjack]

I haven't noticed those problems, but I will gladly differ to your vast experiance.

I only have put about a dozen cables up in the last 3 years, phc is way more your thing :)

[MasterBlaster]

Differ? Ha, I think you mean defer...

Nothing wrong with installing some type of cable in the tree, Jeff. Why are you hating on cables???

[treesandsurf]

Haha, don't hate the cable hate the game my friend.

jp:D

[Frans]

:?

snarf, abrasion is a possibility (that is lessened by lining up the holes right), but won't the tree grow callus in response, like it does when 2 branches rub?


I guess, but cable rubbing is much different than two branches rubbing. Cable is harder and it cuts.

I just don't have any experience with cable stops. As for lining up the holes, trees twist and move from side to side and with the cable stop the cable is constantly moving back and forth in the holes.

I need to talk with someone who has been using them for a long time

[TC3]

Jeff, the tree is already pruned (4 obvious shiners, pic #2). I can only deduce that you already made your suggestion(s) to the customer & are second guessing it ?
Myself, I'd climb into the way-back machine & prune out the co-dom when it was a wee lad !!!
;)
Edit : The lower co-dom is much more cause for corncern, IMO.

[arborworks1]

I've always looked at cabling as, if and when this fails can I move it away from the target before it breaks the cable.

In my opinion, If you do nothing then you as the arborist could possibly be held liable should it damage the neighbors house. As long as you inform the tree owner of the problems and they decline to mitigate then you are square.

[TC3]

So how many people here would climb a tree, deadwood & prune it, then climb down & consult with a customer about weight reduction & cabling ???
:scratch:
Is that considered an add-on, or a whole new work order ? If I were the customer, I would not be impressed or pleased.

[RIVERRAT]

:?

Please explain these 2 "will"s, and loan me your crystal ball. I do not understand how anyone can be certain of either. how can the tree exert over 7 tons of force to break a 3/8" EHS cable?

snarf, abrasion is a possibility (that is lessened by lining up the holes right), but won't the tree grow callus in response, like it does when 2 branches rub?

Carl, dynamic cable rubs where it loops around, needs frequent adjusting, and is vulnerable to rodent predation. It has a place where movement will strengthen a fork, but that does not seem to be the case here.

"Will fail" though this may not happen. I would rather error in this manner when the neighbors house is a target. Keeping in mind the weather we get here.
5 yrs. from now things "will" be different.
This tree is still growing at a pretty good rate. The diameter of the 2 leads that make up the weak crotch will increase. Causing them to push against each other more so than they are now. Making the union even weaker. Increasing the chance of failure......I am looking forword to your reply. This is cool stuff!!

[RIVERRAT]

Jeff, the tree is already pruned (4 obvious shiners, pic #2). I can only deduce that you already made your suggestion(s) to the customer & are second guessing it ?
.

Nope, not second guessing myself.
My intent when starting this thread was curiosity. Wanting to know how others here would see this. Knowing people here are spread all over the globe.

[RIVERRAT]

So how many people here would climb a tree, deadwood & prune it, then climb down & consult with a customer about weight reduction & cabling ???
:scratch:

Well to be honest over the years I have done it alot. For the simple reason I see things while in the tree I couldnt have from the ground.

This is a tree that I have been privilaged to work on for many yrs.
My opening post being present tense regarding the customer didnt help. My client was made aware of the situation quite some time back.

[TC3]

Carl, dynamic cable rubs where it loops around, needs frequent adjusting, and is vulnerable to rodent predation. It has a place where movement will strengthen a fork, but that does not seem to be the case here.

Now who has the crystal ball, Mr. Osha ? Nyahhh !!! :P

[DMc]

Riverrat, You say that you started this thread to bounce ideas around and see what others would do. And I think this is a great site for that. There are a lot of real-world-experience tree guys on this site.

But as the arborist onsite and having canopy knowledge of this tree, you are far better qualified to make a judgment call than any of us. Often times it can be a "feeling" more than a physical attribute.

My personal opinion of the situation, if you feel there is a danger with the strength of the crotch, it is only logical to reduce the danger. Though I almost never use them, I would use a cable in this tree. Steel, strong, 2/3 up from the crotch. This will be almost invisible and steel cables are proven performers. I don't feel there is enough greenery on this tree to reduce it enough to alleviate the problem. I definitely would not use a dynamic system as they were never designed to protect against a defect in the tree. They were designed to protect against excessive movement on a NONdefective tree.

Just my thoughts.

Dave

[RIVERRAT]

I don't feel there is enough greenery on this tree to reduce it enough to alleviate the problem.



Dave
Dave I agree. I removed all the weight I could by doing an extremley nit pick job dead wooding the tips. That is about as far as I was wanting to go with it.
This tree is heavily shaded on one side & never had all that much interior growth.

[treelooker]

Differ? Ha, I think you mean defer...?Da Boss got dis one; I'd rather you differ than defer, big guy.

Static when movement hurts,

Dynamic when movement helps.

i'm tryin to simplify the decisions on cabling here.

snarf, talk to www.rigguy.com. You are right re oscillations and scarring, but callus happens, and the possible rubbing kinda wounding seems minor compared to the certainty of the longterm fix.

But the branching above would indicate whether this Q. palustris needs anything at all. I'd rather drill it than whack a buncha branches tho...

[CurSedVoyce]

Just a question.... of opinion... If the tree were cabled with steel vs a dynamic system allowing some give.... Would then the weight of say ice possibly risk breaking more of a top off from the weight with less give vs the give of a dynamic? In live oaks here once wet snow has weighted the tops, they are prone to break at the top or about half way down the leader to the top. I am curious in that allowing the tree to "give" under the extra weight, it may result in less top damage or less top to damage a structure as such... Any opinions on this? Enlighten me.....
I hope I worded that ok ....... LOL

[Frans]

I think you should climb up that tree when it is icy and shake the hell out of the branches to break off the ice. :) Every year.

[RIVERRAT]

I am curious in that allowing the tree to "give" under the extra weight, it may result in less top damage or less top to damage a structure as such... Any opinions on this? Enlighten me.....
I hope I worded that ok ....... LOL My thought on your qestion is where a main lead or limb may break from a load when cabled has more to do with cable placement than type of system used. Proper placement of cables can be tricky some times.

[Frans]

Assuming the tree has experienced ice storm all it's life, wouldn't a slack cable tighten up during the ice storm and hold the weight?

How about installing a cobra or four in the fall, and removing it during the late spring?
Might be a good money maker...

[arborworks1]

How about installing a cobra or four in the fall, and removing it during the late spring?
Might be a good money maker

That might get stupid expensive for your client. But an older not abused rigging rope would do the same thing;)

[MasterBlaster]

Rope? Frig that, just use good ole fashioned cable.

[arborworks1]

Rope? Frig that, just use good ole fashioned cable.

Back to my original post! One time deal then just check on It every so often.

[Frans]

That might get stupid expensive for your client.



Frans: Might be a good money maker. :D

[CurSedVoyce]

I just paint the whole picture for the client... To the best of my abilities. If the client wans it and it wont hurt the tree... I will do as they wish based on their decision by what information I can offer them .....
They paying the bill...... I only work there... LOL