Natural Crotch Top Rigging?

[brendonv]

When I used to work for someone else, we had no blocks/pulleys/anything.

He natural crotched everything, which was nice sometimes. It's been so long I forget how we did tops. So here I am the other day, about to take the top out of a small tree natural crotch. I forget how to run the rope, I make it work-but the way I see it in my head, is no matter what the rope wont really be able to run because one rope is wrapped on top of the other creating alot of friction.

Stupid question but how are you tying the rope in a typical V crotch when taking the top out?

Anyone got a pic or paint shop drawing?

:|:

[MasterBlaster]

You don't. :drink:

[NickfromWI]

I think you half-hitched and you shoulda marled.

or vice versa

love
nick

[OTGBOSTON]

run the rope simple and leave the stub long..........


I'm sure you know but can't recall, think clove hitch spaced out....

[Skwerl]

The leg going to the top (or load) must be under the leg going to the guy holding the rope.

Quick and dirty picture with a broom handle and some cord I had handy.

[stehansen]

You don't. :drink:

Yup, if you put a sling and pulley you don't have to worry about it.

[THillMaine]

just make sure you make your notch first before you tie the bowline...

[OTGBOSTON]

Yup, if you put a sling and pulley you don't have to worry about it.

Sling and a BLOCK;)

[stehansen]

Sling and a BLOCK;)

Like I shoulda said, a sling and a block.:D

[MasterBlaster]

The leg going to the top (or load) must be under the leg going to the guy holding the rope.


Sure, that's how you do it but doing that will result in a rope stuck it the v crotch.

[brendonv]

Thanks Brian, brain refreshed.

I do have plenty of slings and Blocks, somtimes it's just not nessessary to drag up.

[MasterBlaster]

I guess I misunderstood the queshun...

[rbtree]

Think ahead..leave stubs wherever possible to keep the rigging in place and to use as bollards for friction...then you can self lower.

I'll put up the video of Dave doing that cherry...that you asked about....when I can...but I have scads of other photo/vid editing to do.....

I always carry a sling or two on my saddle.
one can be used to assure that the rope stays in the chosen crotch.

But if you have no choice but to use a v-crotch...then gear up and false crotch it...

[brendonv]

I shouldn't of said V. Think it confused a few.

A U crotch rather. I wouldn't natural a V, for a fear of jamming the rope in it.

[Old Monkey]

just make sure you make your notch first before you tie the bowline...

Or you can lace it up on your side first, put in your face cut in and then slide it around.

[gf beranek]

Keep the load end on the bottom and the tether end outside or on top.

I've done, did, a lot of natural crotching and learned a long time ago if you don't get the wraps right you'll lock up the load.

And on drooping limbs and crotches where the line will run out,, a friction saver set with a wrap can serve as a false crotch to run the line through. In fact you can even put a line wrap through it to help brake. You'd be surprised how well it works to rope off drooping redwood limbs.

Talking limbs here. Nothing big.

[Banned by Squirrels]

Nothing compares to block and sling, specially if you love your rope.

[Bounce]

I stopped natural crotching my tops after I saw a co-worker get nailed by the stub he had left to hold the line up. The groundie had too much friction and the piece was snubbed off, causing the top of the tree to shake back and forth like crazy. The climber got pounded against the stub 2 or 3 times, breaking his nose and front teeth out. Use a block!

[Burnham]

Sean, if he was in the same proximity to a block as he was to the stub, if the same thing happened wouldn't he have gotten pounded by the block?

[Skwerl]

Bounce, we call that 'paddleballed'. :whine:
And that calls for better technique by both the climber and the ropeman. A poor ropeman can paddleball a climber whether he's using a natural crotch or a block.

[Burnham]

Boy don't we ever, eh Brian? :D

[Jonseredbred]

Brians picture is correct for dropping a top out of a tree natural style.

We always add and extra half hitch (or whatever you wanna call the bottom of his set up) above the notch wich is missing in Brians picture.

[MasterBlaster]

I stopped natural crotching my tops after I saw a co-worker get nailed by the stub he had left to hold the line up. The groundie had too much friction and the piece was snubbed off, causing the top of the tree to shake back and forth like crazy. The climber got pounded against the stub 2 or 3 times, breaking his nose and front teeth out. Use a block!


All of that was operator error, not the natural crotch's. Plus, you don't need a stub to keep the rope on the limb.

[THillMaine]

Agreed..poor roping...not poor rigging..Why lug up a block when you can just abuse some rope?
Personally I wont use any mechanical stuff except for special situations and big wood...otherwise striclty natural

[Bounce]

Sean, if he was in the same proximity to a block as he was to the stub, if the same thing happened wouldn't he have gotten pounded by the block?

Maybe, but I don't think so because he could have put the block to one side or the other. Since he couldn't move the branch or his stance (was a hard leaner), he had to stand right in front of the branch.


you don't need a stub to keep the rope on the limb.

True, but I think you need a stub to keep the rope on the trunk, don't you? If you were blocking down sections of a telephone pole, could you still use the natural crotch method? I can't figure out how a round turn stays up there if there's nothing to hold it.


Why lug up a block when you can just abuse some rope?

:what: Because rope and houses are expensive to replace. Then there's the physics involved - by reducing the friction at the suspension point you put more rope in play to help absorb a shock load and make it easier for your groundie to let the piece run so you don't get "paddleballed" (nice word for that Skwerl) by the trunk.

[Jonseredbred]

True, but I think you need a stub to keep the rope on the trunk, don't you? If you were blocking down sections of a telephone pole, could you still use the natural crotch method? I can't figure out how a round turn stays up there if there's nothing to hold it.



.

no stub needed.

[sotc]

expound?

[FJR]

Ive seen another company around here cut a small wedge on the backside of the tree and on the backside of where the marl or half hitch would be. They were blocking down large sections of a cottonwood and it seemed like they had no problems doing so. It also seems like it would put some extreme wear and tear on the rope.

[THillMaine]

Thats old skool for sure, cutting a false crotch..I have never done it myself...but seen some older guys do it...looks sketchy to me, but it works..I was also informed thaat it worked better with manilla rope and softer wood trees, due to the ability of a really hard wood to "cut the rope and the edge of the false crotch...
Bounce..I dont pay for my rigging lines..

[MasterBlaster]

no stub needed.


expound?


Timber hitch!

[sotc]

how does that run? sorry if im dense:dur:

[NickfromWI]

MB- I think willie is asking how one would set up the rigging line to lower a piece down JUST using the rigging line and NOT leaving a stub for the line to rest on.

I have the same question. Short of carving in a fake false crotch, I can't see how it'd be done.

love
nick

[MasterBlaster]

I was talking about how to secure a pulley to a stubless spar.

[sotc]

yup, what nick said.

[MasterBlaster]

I have the same question. Short of carving in a fake false crotch, I can't see how it'd be done.


Now that I unnerstan I wonder too! :? What gives, Andrew???

[gf beranek]

Get a grip on something.

[stehansen]

Get a grip on something.

That's what it's all about.:)

[Bounce]

Frans, are you saying it is possible to lower a section of trunk from a smooth spar that has no branches using only a rope? I can see if you cut a notch in the wood, which would essentially be like making a stub for the rope to hang on. But otherwise? It would seem that Nick, MB and myself all do not understand this.

[Burnham]

Nor do I...like to learn that trick.

[Jonseredbred]

trying to download some pics...........................answer is on its way.

[MasterBlaster]

My breath is baited and Imma waiting. :drink:

[squisher]

My breath is baited with friday afternoon brew.:D

[Old Monkey]

I've carved notches on vertical trunks to allow pieces to run but I don't know anyway through just roping to keep it from sliding down the stem without a branch to stop it.

[Jonseredbred]

I cant get into my e mail to get the pics I just took with the camera phone so I will try to explain it.

On rough bark tree's you can get away with pulling the rope down tight and then wrapping it around the back of the wood (a high wrap as opposed to a low wrap @ ground)to create a loop/hole/noose to run it through.

For added safety you could cut a square notch into the back of the tree to set the rope in.

It works, it burns rope and its sketchy but I didn't start the thread.