pine tree rust?

[pantheraba]

The middle tree in this group (next to our lot at work) is showing a rust color...also, the one next to it is starting to show a little, too.

Do pines recover from this type of condition? Nothing has changed around the trees to cause it (drainage, elevations, etc. have been same). I am wondering if I am going to need to remove these trees...they are between our storage trailer and the warehouse next door.

We have had an on-going drought, real bad last year. I wonder if I am starting to see effects of the drought?

Ideas?

[OTGBOSTON]

I'd guess drought or salt damage. Are there actually rust colored spores? or just browning needles?

[pantheraba]

Browning needles is what I saw.

[lumberjack]

Sometimes some of the pine needles in a bundle/limb will brown all over the tree, normally they recover.

Southern pine beatle attacks bottom up, Ipps attacks top down.

From what I've found it's VERY rare for a drought to kill a pine. Normally what happens is they are stressed by the drought which makes them more supseptable to the creepy cruddy bugs.

Can you get a better picture of the effected tree?

[Skwerl]

I'd look for borer holes.

[OTGBOSTON]

Browning needles is what I saw.

I'd keep my guesstimate at mechanical damage.....

[BostonBull]

I'd guess drought or salt damage.

:withstupid:

[Blinky]

I'm with Lumberjack, red needles with no visible damage SPB or Ipps. It goes though stressed trees in a wave.

[MasterBlaster]

Arizona Root Rot. :drink:

[hugashe]

its dying. ive never seen a pine come back from browning but i could be wrong.

[treelooker]

not fusiform rust disease; just a rust color. I don't think drought/root competition is out of the question.

[NickfromWI]

I'm with lj on this one. But that is based on what I see around Los Angeles. We are following the driest year in LA history and the boring beetles are having a hay-day on the pine trees.

love
nick

[BostonBull]

don't forget pests are opportunists. they attack trees that are already stressed.

[OTGBOSTON]

don't forget pests are opportunists. they attack trees that are already stressed.


Don't forget these pines are out of our area of expertise....:)

[THillMaine]

I would agree with OTG as well as being out of my area...but...two thing that come to mind...phomopsis tip blight and diplodia...if either of there are the case (which they are very likely not) then look for the other trees to start to become affected...phomopsis is also a quick death..

[Old Monkey]

If it was here I'd say it was borers. If it is dry it cannot pitch out borers.

[pantheraba]

I'll try to get some close up pictures tomorrow...may help the diagnoses. Thanks for the input so far.

[sotc]

id agree with borrers as a good guess. is there fine powdery sawdust in the bark ridges? white salty looking deposits on the trunk? tons of small pin holes in the bark?

[pantheraba]

id agree with borrers as a good guess. is there fine powdery sawdust in the bark ridges? white salty looking deposits on the trunk? tons of small pin holes in the bark?

Great questions...I went out and took a close look and pictures. You may be right...see what y'all think. I left the file size large so you can zoom in...there are a lot of pin holes. Pictures 8 and 9 show the white powdery/salty residue at the base of the tree...did not see it above ground level.

(MB, I had to upload one at a time...it would not take a batch upload. Any ideas why?)

[MasterBlaster]

No idea, sometime the software takes a dump.

[Skwerl]

Butch, I think the picture uploading thing has been a problem for everybody since the last big forum outage about 3 weeks ago.

Gary, told ya it was borers. ;)

[MasterBlaster]

I just posted three pics, and yesterday I posted a shitload at once in the pitchers thread. I think it's just bad timing - the software is burping at the same time you're uploading... I think. It DID burp good yesterday a couple times for 10 minutes or so.


edit; it burped just now.

[Frans]

diplodia...
:lol::lol:

Gave me a good laugh, thanks. 'diplodia' is one of those two dollar words which essentially means a general decline attributed to a number of different factors.

I like throwing that word out to a client when I am not sure exactly what is going on.

(ThillMaine, I mean no disrespect, you made a good determination, its just the word I am talking about)


What you are seeing is bark beetles. IPS to be exact. Notice the frass? That is a mixture of excrement and sawdust.

By the time you see that, the beetles have already colonized and moved on.
On the back of the beetles is usually a fungus called Pine Pitch Canker. As the beetle bores into the tree, this fungus is rubbed off.

Like it has already been stated by the others, drought stress or other environmental or mechanical factors cause the tree to lower it's natural defenses. At that point opportunistic insects can move in.

Your trees are toast. Of course if you want to sell the place, just tell the prospective buyer that they are 'copper pines', then take the money and run.

Something else to consider is that these pines have a very short life span of 70-90 years max. They require continuous summer time irrigation as well.

[Skwerl]

Butch, I can upload as many pictures as I want, but I have to do them one at a time. Same as everybody else on the forum except you. The fact that only you can upload multiple pics tells me that it's a setting somewhere that is different between admin and the rest of us users.

But I guess since you don't have the problem, it isn't a problem. :roll:

[sotc]

gary, can you peel the bark back and get a photo of the galleries?

butch, its a three week belch;) we cant up load more than one at a time. we can do as many in a post as we like but before the recent change i could upload 5 in one shot

[MasterBlaster]

I guess I misunderstood. I can only upload one picture at a time, too. I've never tried it any other way.

[pantheraba]

gary, can you peel the bark back and get a photo of the galleries?

butch, its a three week belch;) we cant up load more than one at a time. we can do as many in a post as we like but before the recent change i could upload 5 in one shot

It will probably be next week...I spend the next 3 days at my niece's graduation from Army basic training at Ft. Jackson...2 days there and then we take her to Ft. Bragg for AIT.

Thanks for the help guys.... 8)

[squisher]

Yup those trees are toast. One word of caution Pantherman is remove them sooner than later, it's been my experience around here that the root systems on pines rot rather quickly after dying. Also around here (which is semi-dessert) pine trees are by far the most drought resistant of all the trees present. Of course that is offset by the beetle killing off most pines around here.

[treelooker]

the big holes look like pine sawfly, which does not kill trees. i agree the little holes are baddies, and show the trees are too stressed to pitch them out.

Gary, the sooner the dead ones get out the less bugs will be around to kill the living trees.

[pantheraba]

the big holes look like pine sawfly, which does not kill trees. i agree the little holes are baddies, and show the trees are too stressed to pitch them out.

Gary, the sooner the dead ones get out the less bugs will be around to kill the living trees.

Thanks, Squish and Guy...I'll work towards getting it down pretty soon - and will be watching the others closely. Our dumpster is about 20 feet away so clean up will be pretty simple.

[BCMA]

I believe you have several things going on here. Please keep in mind that I'm from the Northwest and not completely familiar with the insects and diseases in the Southeast.
1. The white pitch tube is from a bark beetle.
2. The holes in the trees is most likely exit holes.
3. The white boring frass at the base of the tree is from a wood bore.
4. The insects in your pictures are a type of wood bore and may not be the species that is producing the white boring frass.
5. The primary stressor is most likely lack of water, over competition, or site disturbance.
6. The bark beetles will come in next and kill the tree.
7. The wood bores are secondary insects and normally infect dead or dying trees.
Take an ax and chop off some of the bark. You should find galleries under the bark and possibly some adult beetles or larva. You may be able to ID it from this point.

[Frans]

good advice

Thanks for confirming what I already said, BCMA

[pantheraba]

Thanks for the analysis BCMA...and welcome to the TreeHouse.

[CurSedVoyce]

Great call BCMA...
Here in the west we are experiencing a significant increase in pine death here in the lower sierras... same scenereo....
Stress from previous injury or drought allows insect or borer damage to the tree. Takes time for the borers to further the damage. Next drought years, damage becomes more aparent by browning and exit holes. damage done, the trees go completely brown in no time. 3 months in a tree I removed (that was a construction damaged tree). You guys may or may not have the problems we have here. PG&E ( the power co.) can attach power lines to trees, homeowners cant, and no one should.... I have seen bucket damage from the installation (120 plus foot ponderosa last year) and damage from the insulator installation allow insect infestation leading to the result of the tree dying. Common here. Drought just finalises the damage already done..
Correct me if I am wrong guys...
And welcome to the tree house BCMA

[treelooker]

Power lines attached to trees? I have never seen that. Seems kinda shortsighted.

[TC3]

The pines here in S.E. Michigan have been struggling for the past couple of years, particularly the Reds & Austrians. It hadn't occurred to me that it may be drought related, but it sure makes sense. It's usually the Maples that show decline a couple-few years after a drought, but I'm learning more every day.
Pine troubles are really hard for me to ID. They seem like such tough trees that if they're declining I tend to shrug them off as lost causes ? Should I be telling my customers to water their pines & spruce during the hot / dry months of summer ?

[sotc]

Power lines attached to trees? I have never seen that. Seems kinda shortsighted.

must be service lines? ive seen alot of that

[BostonBull]

I have seen whole systems built off trees. They are called green construction. Usually where it would cost too much to cut a path for the lines, or too hard to erect poles because of the trees. Very common in northern ME, NH, and VT. Also in the back woods of NC, FL and VA.

[hugashe]

I have seen whole systems built off trees. They are called green construction. Usually where it would cost too much to cut a path for the lines, or too hard to erect poles because of the trees. Very common in northern ME, NH, and VT. Also in the back woods of NC, FL and VA.

you got to show me :/:

[CurSedVoyce]

I should get some pics of this soon, I really hate when they hook electrical services to trees. You should all see how they top them and such here. I have a customer with some beautiful natural cedars and canyon oak that have been totally ruined. Topped at 10 foot off the deck. If a tree dies that the electrical is hooked to, A lot of people call PG&E and tell them the tree died and needs removed. PG&E send "their arborist" out to access if they killed the tree to deem their responsibility. Well guess what, ever time they say "sorry we did not kill that tree, you will have to have it removed yourself and we will be happy to set a pole and move the power line as soon as we can schedule it". Often months after the fact. In one case (as I have posted in another thread) TWO YEARS after the fact. This tree can't be climbed now and I had to refer the customer to a local guy with a crane and another with a bucket. Small town and limited resources. I took down a ponderosa pine last year that had an OBVIOUS equipment hit at 20-25 feet up, right where they set the line. I figure the bucket boom hit it and I mean a chunk of bark here. 1 foot diameter of tree missing. They said was not them that did the damage, I say SURRE you didn't. I was up there and seen it. They mounted the line insulator in the wound! And the damage condition placed it approxamatly at the time of install in my opinion (judging by the healing and such that the tree had over the wound). This tree was magnificent before it died. 120' plus tall, beautiful shape, no conifer mistle toe (witches brooms) and 42 inch dia. at the base. I will try to get some photos posted as I go from account to account. OHHHHH and better have a metal detector as you limb or take down. I was 30 feet up a bull pine here in my yard and hit wire. An old telegraph wire. Been other things too I could talk about, but enough said.

[MasterBlaster]

Fear NOT the paragraph! It is a good thing!

[CurSedVoyce]

sorry ya'll, but I get a bit stirred up on some things.. LOL

[BostonBull]

you got to show me :/:

Next time I take that 4 hour plus ride I will get pics of some of the systmes I upgraded in Northern NH and VT. NOT fun to work with/around/on!

I will probably never be in those ass backwards country woods of the south again where I upgraded those systems, but if I happen upon them ill snap pics.

Wasnt there a discussion recently on here, or the Buzz about this very topic?