Game of Logging

[BostonBull]

Has anyone here taken this course? What did you think of it? I just read a small article in Forest Products magazine touting the program and am looking for more information.

[OTGBOSTON]

Can you actually fit more merit badges on that girl scout sash???;):lol:

[squisher]

Got a link? I lived the game of logging.:D

[gf beranek]

Logging in.

[BostonBull]

Got a link? I lived the game of logging.:D

http://www.fpemagazine.com/article.php?id=1606

[gf beranek]

I just read it. The fellow cites some very good and valid points, but touts the GOL method as the Gospel. Felling technique is far more reaching than any single method. It's experience.

But overall I'm sure the class would be of great benefit to anyone that wanted to up their knowledge and awareness of felling practices.

[inztrees]

talk to dan tillton from tilton equipment

[Husky D]

The principles taught in the GOL article are similar to back here in the UK which as Jerry said are great if you want to improve your knowledge or skills but competency comes from knowledge and experience. One of the biggest things I find is trying to get people once they start to understand the skills alittle during training is complacency. They tend to start off nervous but once they have had some success they begin to think its easy and switch off. I try to convince them that you can have 100 tree's that all look the same and 99 of them may behave but it will only take that 1 to be the 1 that gets you. I don't know about you guys but the tree can dictate alot to the technique you use so the more knowledge the better and its only when things go wrong that your techniques or skills get shown up (Not that im saying any of us get it wrong!:roll:) I try to impart to people skills that will get them started on the right techniques but also tell them you will learn from every tree you cut.
I had Jerry's high climbers and timber fallers as a present last year and the pictures in their are amazing and show if you don't have technique or knowledge when it comes to tree's that size you will find yourself in serious trouble:\:

D

[Newfie]

GOL is offered as one of the continuing education credit options for licensed harvesters in Mass. Its supposed to be good info but they do preach their methodology as the only way to do things.

http://www.mwcc.mass.edu/programs/FWP/workshops.html

Here is a link for the DCR sponsored GOL.

[GASoline71]

I have never seen logging as a "game"...

Gary

[gf beranek]

Yeah,, me too. I was thinking something totally different when I first read it.

[Newfie]

I have never seen logging as a "game"...

Gary

But they really wouldn't attract many students if they called it "How not to be a complete idiot". :DA lot of marketing involved.

[squisher]

Lol, pay to learn to log. These guys could be onto something. Maybe I should buy a yarder, get a few sales, and start giving courses. How not to get squished!:lol:

[gf beranek]

First, you got to be able to run, duck, and jump.

[sotc]

second, you gotta be able to do it all at once:D

[GASoline71]

First, you got to be able to run, duck, and jump.


second, you gotta be able to do it all at once:D

First thing I was taught by the lead hooker when I was chasin' was... "When I jump, you jump... When I duck, you duck... When I haul ass, you better be haulin' ass... cuz if you don't, we'll be burying you on this hillside. ...and I don't wanna have to make that call to your mama."

Gary

[boboak]

I ran into a couple of guys on a fire last week that had taken GOL. They preach it...it's almost like a religion to them. They don't like anybody questioning their methods or ideas. Kind of like Jehova's Witnesses with chainsaws.

They think if they follow all the rules and do exactly what GOL says the trees will also do exactly what GOL says. No thinking involved...just follow the rules.

Maybe that East Coast wood is more predictable and more agreeable to GOL techniques because I spent most of the morning with a grapple Cat cleaning up their messes. They were supposed to be sawing out a road down to an old water hole but they spent most of their time hung up or running for cover. They blamed it all on the wind.

I thought about marking those guys with tree paint, like you do with culls, but there's not a lot of sense of humor around right now.

[sotc]

I thought about marking those guys with tree paint, like you do with culls, but there's not a lot of sense of humor around right now.


:lol::lol:

[bergsteiger]

I ran into a couple of guys on a fire last week that had taken GOL. They preach it...it's almost like a religion to them. They don't like anybody questioning their methods or ideas. Kind of like Jehova's Witnesses with chainsaws.

They think if they follow all the rules and do exactly what GOL says the trees will also do exactly what GOL says. No thinking involved...just follow the rules.


Sounds like they have no business cutting on a fire. They from the East Coast or something? :what:

[GASoline71]

I ran into a couple of guys on a fire last week that had taken GOL. They preach it...it's almost like a religion to them. They don't like anybody questioning their methods or ideas. Kind of like Jehova's Witnesses with chainsaws.

They think if they follow all the rules and do exactly what GOL says the trees will also do exactly what GOL says. No thinking involved...just follow the rules.

Maybe that East Coast wood is more predictable and more agreeable to GOL techniques because I spent most of the morning with a grapple Cat cleaning up their messes. They were supposed to be sawing out a road down to an old water hole but they spent most of their time hung up or running for cover. They blamed it all on the wind.

I thought about marking those guys with tree paint, like you do with culls, but there's not a lot of sense of humor around right now.

Hey Bob!!! Glad to see ya postin' here... stick around mang! :)

Gary

[boboak]

Sounds like they have no business cutting on a fire. They from the East Coast or something? :what:

I don't know where they were from. They weren't cutting on the fire, they were part of a thinning crew that were just milling around trying to figure out what to do.

The fire borders on some ground that I have so I just grabbed a couple of them and put them to work. Big mistake. I let them go til about noon and after lunch I brought in a couple of guys that I knew wouldn't wind up hurting themselves.

Don't get me wrong, GOL makes some good points. But every tree is different, every day is different, the terrain is different,the wind changes on you, the lay is different, on and on and on. Hard and fast rules shouldn't ever take the place of common sense.

So...you guys that believe in GOL, good on ya. But remember, the trees don't take the course.

[boboak]

Hey Bob!!! Glad to see ya postin' here... stick around mang! :)

Gary

Thanks, Gary. I'll quit preaching now. Those guys just kind of made me mad. And scared me a little, too.

[GASoline71]

No worries mang... A lot of guys preach the GOL gospel on that "other" site... and most of them are still cluesless...

They wanna argue about angles with a protractor and plumb-bob... when all you need is a good gunning cut and a few whacks on the wedges... ;)

Gary

[Altissimus]

I'm with you , I have to work .... excuse me clean up after two dudes that think GOL participation makes them qualified .... it's either Bullshit , Horseshit , or Cowshit .... I'm not sure which

[cory]

First thing I was taught by the lead hooker when I was chasin' was... "When I jump, you jump... When I duck, you duck... When I haul ass, you better be haulin' ass... cuz if you don't, we'll be burying you on this hillside. ...and I don't wanna have to make that call to your mama."

Gary

I always liked the saying re setting chokers, "In for your job, out for your life!"

[Altissimus]

I always liked the saying re setting chokers, "In for your job, out for your life!"[/QUOTE] Copy that I think that a "Game" might not include running for your FN life

[NeTree]

Haha.. My favorite saying... "If you see ME running, try to keep up!"

[Altissimus]

Damm Right Erik , I was working with a "Kid" no shit that is his nickname , he had a REAL close call two days ago with 3 phase 480V .... It is good to walk away , or RUN...

[Swe#kipp]

I don't know how the GOL works in the state but here (Sweden) they have different felling courses not just the bore cut "method" they do even teach the humboldt cut, but I agree to the preaching they do it here to :)

[Dave Shepard]

I saw some GOL footage a few years back. They were pushing some bizarre wide open face cut that would get you thrown out of the woods around here.

[Altissimus]

Hey SK... other than a complete FALSE sense of mastery... the other main problem I have with GOL is the endosrement of bore cutting for ROOKIES , I know why they feel this way (i.e. control of directional falling to the last second , allowing faller escape).... I consider bore cuts an advanced technique not to be learned without lotsa of hours of convetional cuts....

[Swe#kipp]

I don't defend the GOL I just think any faller/logger should be open to both new and old technics, the person i have learnd most from is a man who has logging all his life (70 years old) the "oldtimers" has nice tricks to teach and if you combine them to fit your needs it can't be a bad thing right !?

[Altissimus]

Grey Beard Power !!!

[NeTree]

Gray beard my ass... that's why I use "Just for Men". HAHA!

[CurSedVoyce]

Nawwwww.. I just shave .. LMAO

[stig]

Hey SK... other than a complete FALSE sense of mastery... the other main problem I have with GOL is the endosrement of bore cutting for ROOKIES , I know why they feel this way (i.e. control of directional falling to the last second , allowing faller escape).... I consider bore cuts an advanced technique not to be learned without lotsa of hours of convetional cuts....

I totally disagree on that. I start my apprentises up by telling them to borecut all trees that have some size to them. Then when they learn to figure lean, which is a lot more tricky in hardwoods than in softwoods, they are allowed to cut from the back.
You won't get "lots of hours of conventional cuts" if your first big headleaner kills you.

[GASoline71]

You won't get "lots of hours of conventional cuts" if your first big headleaner kills you.

Or an errant bore cut by a rookie results in kickback and you cut an artery FFS...

Teaching rookies/apprentices one of their first fallin' techniques to be a bore cut seems a little dangerous. Bore cutting is so overrated and used waaaaayyyyy too often. Mostly by rookies that think it is some sort of hocus pocus magical way to put a tree on the ground.

It's a dangerous technique that should only be employed when the need arrises... not for every stinkin' tree... :what:

Gary

[stig]

I have two things to say to that:
One, we use WAY shorter bars than americans, having long ago evolved beyond the point where we could only fell a tree, if we could reach all the way through from one side.
Shorter bars give better control against kickback.

Second: The use of skiptooth chain is almost nonexisting in Europe ( reason, see above!!) Full complemented chain has reduced kickback.

Heck, since it's sunday I'll give you a third reason for free: Using shorter bars, our falling tecnique revolves around being good at boring, if you can't bore well, you have no business being in the woods here.Hardwoods are a lot more unforgiving as to barberchairing, than your PNW softwoods.

How can you call boring dangerous? I simply don't get that. Don't you use a gauge for filing rakers?

[squisher]

Stig if you're in consistently large wood a long bar is going to be way faster than cutting from both sides with a short bar, way faster. So I'm not sure that evolution has anything to do with it. Unless you're speaking in regards to how trees have evolved on the west coast.

And Stig I don't use a gauge for filing rakers I file by feel the same way you fall trees.;)

[lumberjack]

Stig, in your Denmarkian honor, I dropped a 28-30" butt with a 12" bar, yesterday.

It took a while, but that might have something to do with the powerhead.

[NeTree]

Stig, us Americans can't help it we have longer bars. ;)



I get by with the 346 and 16" bar for most things here on the east coast. If you start your bore cut correctly, kickback isn't an issue.

[Skwerl]

I have two things to say to that:
One, we use WAY shorter bars than americans, having long ago evolved beyond the point where we could only fell a tree, if we could reach all the way through from one side.

Not to mention that in the PNW it isn't always possible to cut the tree from both sides due to the terrain.

Stig, your condescending attitude might be more appropriate over at Arbtalk. They seem to enjoy looking down their noses at Americans almost as much as you do. :what:

[lumberjack]

I wouldn't go that far, B, but I would say that his three reasons for bore cutting are all tied back to a shorter bar.

4 cuts is never faster than 3.

Having the ability to remove a tree 2.5+ times longer than your bar is a skill that can come in handy, but it doesn't mean it's something you should do on every tree.

More importantly, what's the practical advantage to a shorter bar?

[squisher]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not into carrying around more weight or length then I need to, but imo your bar should span the majority of the wood you'll be cutting.

[stig]

Stig, your condescending attitude might be more appropriate over at Arbtalk. They seem to enjoy looking down their noses at Americans almost as much as you do.

What the heck has happened to your sense of humour?
Didn't it survive the election.
When I used the word "evolved" I was joking. I actually thought that was pretty obvious, but like I've said before, I'm writing in a language not that's not my own, so sometime the finer nuances may get by me.

I don't honestly believe I can plead guilty to being condescending towards americans, and since you apparently were the only one who didn't get the fact that I was merely jesting, maybe your skin is a little too thin!

How can you look at the post I was answering, and accuse ME of condescension?

Anyway, there are regional differences in how we do things, and if I can't be allowed to punk you guys for doing it different from the way I do it without offending people, then maybe I should move over to arbtalk, whatever that may be.

Hell, I actually really pissed off now. Didn't think something in a netforum could do that to me, what do you know?

[squisher]

I wouldn't sweat it none the Skwerlyman is an angry dude at times.:D

I enjoy discussing this sorts of stuff with someone from across the globe, even if some of your ideas are whack!:P

Your input/insights are apreciated.

There's nothing wrong with a lively debate and yes humor can be hard to put into words on the internet. That's why we have smilies.;)

[Reddog]

Well Stig, I hope you don't leave us.
I enjoy reading your posts on felling.
Your earlier post hit on good reasons why most here do not use the bore cut method.
Most of the members have never worked in a full on production pulp and saw log outfit. They could not get away with the same technique on hardwoods that they use in softwood.

Wally

[lumberjack]

But about using those short bars?.....



:P

[GASoline71]

Actually I wasn't being condescending towards you either stig... just questioning why you were preaching the whole bore cut thing...

Gary

[stig]

That's okay, gary. I just got a little bit of steam pressure buildt up there for a while. I've cooled of again now.
As for the bore cut. Some of the hardwoods here are very prone to splitting. If you look at some of the photos of mature beech forest I posted under " what is the biggest problem....." in odds and ends, you'll see some long treetrunks with no knots to hold them together. When they split, they go awfully fast.
Also figuring lean in hardwoods is hard for beginners.
Since the way we fall consists of: make facecut, bore in behind hinge to be and run the saw around the tree, pulling the saw out and plunging it in again take very little time.
Another thing is I'll bore the face if I have to put a tree down in very little room between other trees, Then I'll aim it a little to the left so it just hits the outer branches on another tree and as the it starts to fall, use the tip of the bar to cut the left hinge off. That'll make the tree rotate clockwise and "screw" itself down between the obstacle trees. You can get a large tree down in surprisinly little room that way, and not break too many branches off of the standing trees.
The tree in the photo split from hitting one one codominant leader, but it's the only split beech picture I have.
When I worked in Switzerland, they had a saying:" The beech will try to take your life, till it lies in the stove". It sounds better in Swiss.

[stig]

Here is a drawing of how we do it, hope you can make sense of it ( and my handwriting)

After doing the undercut, bore in a little less than all the way back in the left side, cut forward, leaving hingewood.
Bore behind hingewood on right side and cut around the tree, the last bit of wood to be cut, will act as backstrap.

Carl we'll never agree on the bar lenght. That is like muslims and christians discussing something, but to me the advantages of a shorter bar are: (beside tradition!!) fewer cutters to file, less drag on the powerhead, consequently being able to use lighter saw.
That means using less oil and gas, and dragging less weight around.
With the amount of bars and chain, I and the guys in my outfit go through in a season, there is money saved in shorter bars being cheaper.
But mostly, it's tradition. The way we have to limb and buck stuff here is simply easier with a short bar.
Don't forget,even though I'm just a dumb European,I have been in the woods in California on several occasions. The way softwood are being limbed there, simply would not wash here, the mills would complain.
Back before the feller bunchers took our place in the foodchain here, when we felled and limbed an ungodly amount of smallish fir and spruce, we needed really fast limbing tecniques to make a living. Small saws with fastmoving chain was the answer.
With a 50 cc saw filed correctly for the job and a 15 inch bar, I can have the limbs off a 90 foot doug fir in about 4 minutes. And I mean, have them off so you could run your bare butt down the log without getting splinters.
Sorry, that's how we used to tell apprentises limbing had to be done. Somehow that bare butt always got in there.
The generation of loggers that were active in the relatively short period here between the chainsaw getting small enough for limbing and the harvesters taking over, grew into being very fast limbers.
Today we hardly log softwoods, but I still show off my limbing tecnique on occasion, to impress the youngsters.

[sotc]

i missed the humor in that post also, smilies do help:) or even better in your post would have been:P! anywho im with squish on the long bar thing and im not sure what you mean by ourlimbing techniue wouldnt fly over there. whats wrong or different between there and here?

[Reddog]

im not sure what you mean by ourlimbing techniue wouldnt fly over there. whats wrong or different between there and here?

SOTC,
Out west most folks leave a lot of stubs after limbing.
East coast and Central US, we have to trim flush, no branch collar left.

This vid shows pretty well some of the differences.

http://www.skogforsk.se/KunskapDirekt/Templates/WMPage____15452.aspx

[NeTree]

Ever try to turn a cant with a stub? Fockin'A.

[sotc]

other than small wood and short bars:P it looks like what we do. the mills out here dont even like branch collars, limbing is in effect flush cuts where i logged

[MasterBlaster]

This vid shows pretty well some of the differences

I like that trick he did at 6:30! Any of ya'll ever done that?

[Reddog]

I have with a peavy.
Never found one of the straps like that.

[Altissimus]

In New England .... the main reasons for bore cutting are .... to negate barber chair tendancies in straight grains (Ash , Oak , ect.) also heavy head leaners epecially below freezing (white , yellow , and black Birches especially) .... But the main thing is to protect the mill value of veneer logs (with that value , no rook should be falling...)

[Skwerl]

Those were tiny lil trees he was cutting. Cool video though. Did anyone else notice the very last cut (at the 10:00 mark) where he upcut through the log and put the tip of his bar either into or very close to the end of that other log, creating a very high likelihood of kickback? Perhaps they should have cut the film off 1-2 seconds earlier... :/:
I don't speak the language, was that addressed in the film? Did he create that kickback situation on purpose to demonstrate what to watch out for?

[brendonv]

Noob question...according to Stig's diagram, where would one put wedges if the tree required? On the left and right side of the strap?

[Newfie]

Noob question...according to Stig's diagram, where would one put wedges if the tree required? On the left and right side of the strap?

Or even right up behind the hinge.

[lumberjack]

Brian, I believe he was showing what knot to do as the exagerated the effects of kickback by flinging the saw upward.

[sotc]

i liked that trick to butch, much better with the pole than the peavy

[MasterBlaster]

:thumbup:

[Newfie]

i liked that trick to butch, much better with the pole than the peavy


Definitely more leverage and moves you further away from the danger zone.

[woodworkingboy]

Shorter bars give better control against kickback.

I'm kind of surprised to read that kickback is a concern amongst people felling trees professionally. It's a very basic saw handling understanding to prevent it, and probably most people here hardly think about it.

You must be saying that the people you are teaching logging to, have limited chainsaw experience as well?

[stig]

i missed the humor in that post also, smilies do help:) or even better in your post would have been:P! anywho im with squish on the long bar thing and im not sure what you mean by ourlimbing techniue wouldnt fly over there. whats wrong or different between there and here?

When I was in California , a lot of the limbing was done at the cold deck, after the logs had been brought out. Here we finish then as we go.

As for placing wedges, you don't need much in the way of wedges if you faal a headleaner. We place one in the first cut, next to the backstrap. Then if we find out the tree was actually not a headleaner ( typical rookie thing!) we can always stick a few more in after finishing the cut.

[stig]

I'm kind of surprised to read that kickback is a concern amongst people felling trees professionally. It's a very basic saw handling understanding to prevent it, and probably most people here hardly think about it.

You must be saying that the people you are teaching logging to, have limited chainsaw experience as well?

Gary was the one to bring kickback up. I don't see it as a concern, except for novices.

[stig]

As for the swedish video, did you notice the rear chainbrake?
The swedish logging schools have started to use that, I think it is a overdoing it.
The limbing is done the same way here, with one big exception.
That was an instruktion video, so he didn't step forward with the chain running. In real life, you do that series of moves much more fluid, with no breaks as you step forward.

[sotc]

with our longer bars we usually climb up on the log and bump as we walk down the log

[GASoline71]

Gary was the one to bring kickback up. I don't see it as a concern, except for novices.

Yep... that was my point... not everybody should be doin' advanced cuts due to the high danger of kickback. Even experienced cutters/fallers will experience a kickback. While 99.9% of the time the saw is under control by an experienced sawyer... the kickback is not as severe... But to joe the cutter, that same kickback might be lethal.

I do agree with the fact that the longer bars out west with the skip chains most of us run are more suspect to kickback on a lot of cuts.

On the limbing thing... most times I just walk the spar and limb with the same saw I fall with... The cuts are flush with the spar. Actually limbing this way with a saw with a 28" bar (for reach) and skip is prolly more dangerous than a bore cut...

Gary

[stig]

Sotc and Gary, doing it that way you tend to miss the branches on the underside, That doesn't matter if you've got somebody running over the logs on the deck, but here they are send directly to the mill, without being decked first, at least not in a way where you can get to them.
We use these kind of machines for getting most smaller stuff out, I think you call them forwarders?
Anyway, its a moot point, because we don't log that kind of trees any more, having been replaced by harvesters. I am actually thankful for that, it was a really hard way to make a buck.

[Altissimus]

[QUOTE= the kickback is not as severe... But to joe the cutter, that same kickback might be lethal.

:lol:

Joe the "cutter" Damm Funny !

[MasterBlaster]

As for the swedish video, did you notice the rear chainbrake?


That's quite the novelty! I wonder why it's not over here?

[woodworkingboy]

On the limbing thing... most times I just walk the spar and limb with the same saw I fall with... The cuts are flush with the spar. Actually limbing this way with a saw with a 28" bar (for reach) and skip is prolly more dangerous than a bore cut...Gary

Do that too, but I don't have real good balance on narrow trees....been known to fall off :roll: I usually toss the saw before bailing. :roll:

[CurSedVoyce]

Like climbing tooth picks eh jay???
LOL

[Swe#kipp]

Those were tiny lil trees he was cutting. Cool video though. Did anyone else notice the very last cut (at the 10:00 mark) where he upcut through the log and put the tip of his bar either into or very close to the end of that other log, creating a very high likelihood of kickback? Perhaps they should have cut the film off 1-2 seconds earlier... :/:
I don't speak the language, was that addressed in the film? Did he create that kickback situation on purpose to demonstrate what to watch out for?

The kickback is there to demonstrate, he warns for not having control of the tip of your bar !
I understand it looks a bit strange if you don't know "the Swedish chef" language :)