Random picks of CODIT

[xtremetrees]

Heres a few I thought were interesting.
I'm guessing 15 years growth of CODIT.

[sotc]

codit in pine roots

[xtremetrees]

your funny nOOb

[sotc]

why? just helpin your thread along

[Frans]

your funny nOOb

evidence of CODIT:

[xtremetrees]

CODIT has two parts. The fi rst part involves the wood present at the time of
wounding. Part two involves wood added to the tree in subsequent years.

Tread lighty on my thread son this is your last warning!

[Skwerl]

What kind of tree is that, Robert? It certainly looks like it has some vigorous woundwood growth.

[xtremetrees]

I believe it is a Georgia Oak which I learned this week grows only on Stone Mountain RJS.
I was referencing my book and ran out of time and had to go to another job.

[sotc]

CODIT has two parts. The fi rst part involves the wood present at the time of
wounding. Part two involves wood added to the tree in subsequent years.

Tread lighty on my thread son this is your last warning!

actually there are 4 walls to codit, look at the black line in the first picture. lightly treading away :roll:

[xtremetrees]

Roots dont CODIT roots prune! my theory anyway. I dont think that black line is a boundary at all.

"Similar patterns were seen in other heartwood-forming trees such as this black locust. The diameter of the hollow was the diameter of the tree at the time of injury. Even after almost 40 years, the so-called "heartwood rotting fungi" did not spread outward into the heartwood that surrounded the hollow. These observations suggested that microorganisms could only infect wood that was first altered by injury.

And a pick from www.treedictionary.com

[Frans]

CODIT stands for: COMPARTMENTALIZATION OF DECAY IN TREES.

Thus any evidence of 'walling' off a wound can be attributed to CODIT.

A 'finished' or 'complete' CODIT would indeed encompass all 4 walls.

These pictures are two unusual examples of CODIT :

[xtremetrees]

I know this may sound mysterious and remote but I dont feel root CODIT at all, I think rather they shed dead woody parts partially or mainly because the abscence of sunlight which produces bark.
Frans I wonder if Jerrys sign/tag? he hung in that tree that beat him down on his first attempt has CODIT into the side of that monster redwood. I forget the year he hung it.
Willy do you still think roots CODIT?

[Frans]

I know this may sound mysterious and remote but I dont feel root CODIT at all,

Mysterious? No, not really unless you are talking about how your mind works. :D

Roots CODIT. Do the research
Here is a good start:
http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/HTMLFILES/CODIT-1.html

[Frans]

Frans I wonder if Jerrys sign/tag? he hung in that tree that beat him down on his first attempt has CODIT into the side of that monster redwood. I forget the year he hung it.



Gosh, so many trees, so many DVDs, I have not the slightest idea which tree you are talking about.

Best to ask Gerry directly.

[xtremetrees]

I been looking for a few hours for that pick you just showed.
I stand corrected

[Frans]

Its cool. I like to learn new stuff myself and the only way to learn is to challenge old ideas and look at them in a new way.

[sotc]

i guess my answer is now obsolete.

[treesandsurf]

post deleted by treesandsurf

[xtremetrees]

it werent a great codit pick i still dont see the codit but im sure its there

[Frans]

I thought about this a bit more.

Roots are comprised of woody roots and fibrous/hairy roots. The point at which roots interact with the soil is on the fibrous/hairy (absorbing) roots. These are very soft and delicate.

I wonder if at the point of attachment between the absorbing root and the woody root, their is an abscission layer?
If so, Robert could be correct in that these absorbing roots would re-act to being severed in much the same way that a leaf separates from the branch

[Skwerl]

Frans, you're gonna have to stop that chit or else somebody (like me) might learn something.
;)

[treesandsurf]

"The good news is that roots are effective compartmentalizers of infections."

http://www.treedictionary.com/DICT2003/shigo/ARM.html

jp:D

[gf beranek]

I should go check to see if the redwood still has that 57 Chevy hub cap on it. Heck, it's been 37 years since we nailed it on. Think I'll do that.

[Stumper]

I know this may sound mysterious and remote but I dont feel root CODIT at all,...


Nah, just arrogant and foolish.

[xtremetrees]

Mr. B, I was thinking it was a tag for some reason, wasn't it the first tree you attempted to climb and it beat you back, but you returned and tried again and made it to the top?
I cant imagine overcoming it with no formal training and what a manila rope at 300 feet?!!!!

I just don't understand how a tree works underground Stumper. I know they call it codit but its just so different underground. 1.) No sunlight, no ultraviolet rays. 2.) no O2 or air or even wind.
I guess I am sounding arrogant but I am just amazed at how it works. I need to do more research on root codit but the pick frans found is the only one I see on the whole internet and I'm sure Mr. Shigo gave it to us. Like how can a grass seed push up thru 4 inches of asphalt. I know they call it codit below ground as well as above but to me it just don't seem right.
Why does a hardwood codit a soft wood, the hardwood is slower growing but it will surround it in due time. I just don't understand stuff Stumper I will try to be more humble about it.
Heres a pick of CODIT stopping a fungus which I did not know it could.

[NickfromWI]

... its just so different underground. 1.) No sunlight, no ultraviolet rays. 2.) no O2 or air or even wind.

Xtreme- there is oxygen below ground. The roots absorb it and give off carbon dioxide...just like us!

love
nick

[xtremetrees]

Mr. B I cant find your story about that climb here at the house, Ill keep looking I found it inspirational to say the least.

Nick so the roots do the opposite than the crown concerning O2.

[NickfromWI]

Yep

[Frans]

and a grass IS NOT a woody plant. You should know that.

Just sit back, organize your thoughts into clear questions, and do the research. We will help if we can.

But think things through first, O.K.?

First:

Are you talking about CODIT? Or root growth? Or Gerry Baranek's tree climbing?

[xtremetrees]

Sorry, I'll try to avoid derailing.

[treesandsurf]

Sounds like you need to invest in some Shigo publications; check out modern arboriculture, a new tree biology and a tree anatomy and then you'll be schooling us!

jp:D

[Stumper]

Robert, Remember that CODIT is an acronym (Compartmentalization Of Decay In Trees) and signifies a process/series of processes rather than a single action. Thus woundwood/callus formation need not be evident for other Codit processes to be occurring.

[Frans]

Go man Go!, Stumper. You are absolutely correct. Thank you for mentioning it.

[xtremetrees]

Work done by Gilman et al. at the University of Florida shows that a wound's proximity to leaf mass greatly influences compartmentalization as well as wound closure." Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CODIT

[Mike Maas]

Work done by Gilman et al. at the University of Florida shows that a wound's proximity to leaf mass greatly influences compartmentalization as well as wound closure." Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CODIT

Most of the processes of a tree are influenced by the available sugars, which originate in the leaves and other green plant parts.
The sugars are moved through the phloem, which can be compared to a sponge.
If water drips on one end of a sponge and the other end is in the hot dry sun, the water will move toward the dry end. If there isn't enough water, the warm end will dry out.
The same thing happens in a tree. If there is an injury, sugars will be used for the repair processes. If the sugars in the immediate area are used up, more will migrate from other areas of the tree. If the tree is under stress and low on sugars to begin with, the repair and defense processes can't happen.

If there are leaves near the injury, there is a good source of photosynthates, which fuel the repairs.

[MasterBlaster]

Hey Mike, good to read ya.

[Frans]

If the sugars in the immediate area are used up, more will migrate from other areas of the tree. If the tree is under stress and low on sugars to begin with, the repair and defense processes can't happen.


Trees will also 'bail out' and give up on a limb if that limb is not producing enough to support itself and also contribute to the rest of the tree.

[Mr. Sir]

Most of the processes of a tree are influenced by the available sugars, which originate in the leaves and other green plant parts.
The sugars are moved through the phloem, which can be compared to a sponge.
If water drips on one end of a sponge and the other end is in the hot dry sun, the water will move toward the dry end. If there isn't enough water, the warm end will dry out.
The same thing happens in a tree. If there is an injury, sugars will be used for the repair processes. If the sugars in the immediate area are used up, more will migrate from other areas of the tree. If the tree is under stress and low on sugars to begin with, the repair and defense processes can't happen.

If there are leaves near the injury, there is a good source of photosynthates, which fuel the repairs.

Exactly! That's why latent buds will sprout around wound sites.

[Frans]

Exactly! That's why latent buds will sprout around wound sites.

Latent buds will also sprout when suddenly exposed to sunlight

[Mike Maas]

Trees will also 'bail out' and give up on a limb if that limb is not producing enough to support itself and also contribute to the rest of the tree.

I'm not sure this is true.
The branch bails out on the tree, not the other way around. The fuel comes from the branch and goes to the tree, not the other way around, so the tree doesn't control the fate of the limb.

[Mike Maas]

Hey Mike, good to read ya.

Thanks, my friend. Good to be here.

[Frans]

I'm not sure this is true.
The branch bails out on the tree, not the other way around. The fuel comes from the branch and goes to the tree, not the other way around, so the tree doesn't control the fate of the limb.

Sudden limb drop come to my mind.

Yes, 'fuel' comes from the limb's leaves when those limbs perform photosynthesis, but stored reserves come from the wood of the limb(s) and from the main trunk, which gets it from the roots.

Each part of the tree MUST contribute to the whole system of the tree. If one part is not contributing or if it is taking away (robbing nutrients) from the whole, that part gets excised so as to not threaten the overall survival of the tree.

I am a bit puzzled about this.

[sotc]

ive always the same frans. good to see ya here mike:)

[Mike Maas]

Sudden limb drop come to my mind.

Yes, 'fuel' comes from the limb's leaves when those limbs perform photosynthesis, but stored reserves come from the wood of the limb(s) and from the main trunk, which gets it from the roots.

Each part of the tree MUST contribute to the whole system of the tree. If one part is not contributing or if it is taking away (robbing nutrients) from the whole, that part gets excised so as to not threaten the overall survival of the tree.

I am a bit puzzled about this.

We know the fluids in the xylem move up. The phloem, which moves photosynthates, moves them down and horizontally into rays and out to cambium and bark cambium.

How much do they move up? I think very little, if at all.

Sugars stored in the roots get used by the roots, after all they can't make their own and they use them almost year round, even in cold climates.

My point is that the energy moves from the branch tip back to the tree, and not the other way around. A branch's survival is dependent on itself, not the tree.

[xtremetrees]

Nice post mike.
If a tree is like a pump and the roots get damaged the result is dieback in thetop, that explains it.
A tree will CODIT a limb if its a sink, this leads me to conclude that the tree does bail on the limb.
But the way you explain it Mike makes sense too. So, I am cornfuse and I know that I am over simplifying.
Thanks for including sunlight to the thread Frans. It has made the search of CODIt on google more relevant and that this thread now shows up on google when I search CODIT thrills meh.

[FJR]

A branch's survival is dependent on itself, not the tree.

Bingo.

6 CO2(g) + 12 H2O(l) + photons → C6H12O6(aq) + 6 O2(g) + 6 H2O(l)

[Frans]

What about water?

If a branch is transpiring to the point of draining the rest of the system, wont the tree cut off it's supply?

[Mike Maas]

There are stomata that open and close on the leaves, but other than that transpiration is a supply and demand thing. As long as evaporation is going on, and there is water in the soil, water will move. There are not any other on/off valves inside the tree.

In severe drought, again the limb is in charge. In order, it will close stomata, leaves will wilt, leaves will drop, and the limb will die back from the tips. The tree does not decide to kill the limb, the limb lives or dies on its own merit.

[Frans]

As long as evaporation is going on, and there is water in the soil, water will move. There are not any other on/off valves inside the tree.

The tree does not decide to kill the limb, the limb lives or dies on its own merit.

'Sudden Limb drop'

What causes it?

Could it be;
1. excessive/heavy water load in the branch which then transpires out of the leaves of the limb causing the entire limb to become lighter which causes the limb to raise, which creates force pushing on the tension wood, causing the limb to shear at the branch collar?
2. The tree 'cutting off' the water supply to the limb causing the cells in the branch collar to become rigid/ desiccated /shrink and brittle so it shears off?

I am curious about this phenomenon and I think it addresses this topic.

My understanding is that a tree is a collection of disparate parts, all of which contribute to the whole in some way. Kind of like a government with numerous agencys. So (unlike a government) if one 'agency' is not performing, or it is 'robbing'/not contributing to the survival of the tree, the tree system will excise that part in order to survive.

If the first or second is correct, that would mean that yes, the tree would, and could if needed, shut off nutrients and water to any section.

Bruce Hagen seems to think one or the other of these points could be true.

Please tell me your thoughts on this Mike.

[MasterBlaster]

Vertical Wind Shear.

[Frans]

Vertical Wind Shear.

If that were true, then the branch collar would have tears. In Sudden Limb Drop, the collar is cleanly sheared.

[sotc]

correct me if im wrong but i always thought sudden limb drop was associated with shear water weight. hot afternoon, wide open stomata, pumping serious amounts of water through the tree and over loading limbs.

[sotc]

If that were true, then the branch collar would have tears. In Sudden Limb Drop, the collar is cleanly sheared.

never experienced that

[Frans]

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=6084&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=7&o=&fpart=1

CA. tree failure report Program:

http://groups.ucanr.org/treefail/index.cfm


What is the major cause of limb shear in trees?

There is no single cause. Limb shear occurs because of a combination of different factors. These include environmental conditions, the age of the tree and species variation. The variation may be within species as well as between different species. You can see a whole paddock of River Red Gums and 48 out of the 50 will be fine and two of them will have fallen limbs all round them. Certainly some species of trees are particularly prone to limb shear.

However the majority of cases are caused by some defect in the union between the limb and the trunk, or some section of the limb adjacent to the trunk. Very often we can see evidence of decay. This may have been caused by something as simple as a cockatoo or possum eating away at the bark, allowing decay to set in. Or perhaps the tree has been subject to environmental limitations, such as drought or compaction, and its ability to repel decay may have been reduced. Sometimes the reasons may go back 10 or 15 years. For example, people forget that 10 years ago, a new water main was put in and half the tree’s roots were severed. Trees are amazing survivors but such things take their toll. Limb shear may be the consequence of actions from years ago.

Having said all that there are still occasions when arborists can find no explanation at all for why limbs fail.

Which species are most vulnerable to limb shear?

Some eucalypts are particularly vulnerable. River Red Gum (Eucalyptus camaldulensis) (see top right), Narrow-leafed Peppermint (E. nicholii), Sugar Gum (E. cladocalyx), Lemon-scented Gum (Corymbia citriodora), Spotted Gum (Corymbia maculata) and Swamp Mahogany (Eucalyptus botryoides) are trees to be watched in particular. Most species of Elm are also prone to limb shear. Ulmus procera and U. x hollandica seem equally likely to do it.

The problem with Swamp Mahogany in the urban situation may go right back to the original genetic stock used for propagation, or the lack of care taken in the nursery to remove problem branches. The problem seems to stem from the morphology of the tree. Because of a condition called "included bark", the branches are typically not very well attached to the tree.

I think it’s important to understand that the eucalypts in the urban situation are quite different to the eucalypts in the forest. Eucalypts in the forest tend to grow straight up as they compete with each other for light. In the urban situation, the trees have more light and consequently, a more extensive canopy and branch structure.

We are currently engaged in research to test the hypothesis that shading of lower branches, or over pruning of branches, may have an influence on their tendency to drop.

What can be done to minimise the danger?

I think it is important to realise it is difficult to predict when a limb will fall. However there are steps that can be taken that will minimise the risk. As trees age, the likelihood of limb shear increases. Old or vulnerable trees should be examined regularly by a professional arborist who needs to climb the tree and examine the limbs closely. Some limbs may need to be removed, or it may be that the whole tree needs removing. Where a limb is aesthetically important, cabling and bracing can be employed, so that if the limb does fail, it will be less likely cause an injury.

About Leigh Stone: Leigh Stone is a full-time arborist, a part time lecturer at Burnley College and is completing his Masters thesis on "Sudden Limb Failure in Trees".

[sotc]

interesting, but she danced around the main topic.

[Frans]

Yes, she did. Also the TB posts do not mention in Sudden Limb Drop, the branch collar being sheared off cleanly. Almost like the branch is yanked off the trunk straight out, or cut off with a saw. No peeling.

[Bodean]

I've seen a few euc sudden limb drops, never tear always a fracture
and drop.

Like a drop cut.

rarely anything lays down and remains attached or tears bark.

Maybe not enough water to continue the bond from cell to cell.

[Mike Maas]

I've never seen Sudden Limb Drop, but I've seen a lot of limbs drop. There's always been a structural issue to start.
That leaves me doubting it even exists. If it does, it's very rare or non-existent in my area.

[Frans]

I've never seen Sudden Limb Drop, but I've seen a lot of limbs drop. There's always been a structural issue to start.
That leaves me doubting it even exists. If it does, it's very rare or non-existent in my area.

Their are lots of things I have never seen, but that doesn't mean I doubt it exists

[treesandsurf]

A branch's survival is dependent on itself, not the tree.

:/: What about the water necessary for the production of carbohydrates in photosynthesis that is supplied by the roots. The energy which the leaves are creating is a result of several factors, one of the most important being the H20 that is supplied by the underground portion of the tree.

jp:D

[sawinredneck]

I think? I have seen the sudden limb drop phenomenon on the Elm trees in KS. With our hard clay soil and little rain in the hot months, you will go around and pick up branches off the Elms. No wind damage, a very nicely formed and healed collar, but the heartwood is rotten, and broken off behind the collar, inside the trunk if you will.
Does this sound right?

[RIVERRAT]

Yes Andy that sounds right. Your description agrees with mine & Mikes thoughts.

I have seen the limbs of ash trees the Green Ash in paticular drop limbs. But in every case I have seen there has been decay or some factor that clearly caused it. Dont know that this is "Sudden Limb Drop" or not. I dont believe that title describes what I have seen.

[xtremetrees]

Hey River Rat good to read ya.

[RIVERRAT]

Hey River Rat good to read ya.
Why thank you dude!:)

[TC3]

interesting, but she danced around the main topic.
"She" is a he... Leigh.

[sotc]

ooopsie

[Mike Maas]

:/: What about the water necessary for the production of carbohydrates in photosynthesis that is supplied by the roots. The energy which the leaves are creating is a result of several factors, one of the most important being the H20 that is supplied by the underground portion of the tree.

jp:D

True, but the roots and stems are like straws. The leaves do the sucking. If the root system is weakened by low sugars, the branches that die first are out at the tips, typically near the top of the tree.
My point is that the branch live or dies on it's own. The tree doesn't control the branch, the branch controls the tree.
Understanding my poorly expressed point here will help you understand more about pruning a tree. I see many arborists with the idea that they are controlling growth factors by pruning, when in fact, they are just cutting off branches.
A common mistaken idea, is guys that cut lower limbs to give more strength to the top of the tree. Total hogwash. Another, is cutting off adventitious growth to stop it from "sucking" the strength from the tree.

[xtremetrees]

Hey Teresa good to read ya!
Took this pick yesterday. Just kinda random but awesome Codit. Sorry dont mean to derail.
Many moons ago indians would bend trees over to point to water, ammo dumps, or to mark the trail, hence the name indian trail trees. Perhaps this is one?

[MasterBlaster]

Dogleg!

[Mike Maas]

Took this pick yesterday. Just kinda random but awesome Codit.


What does a bent tree have to do with Compartmentalization?

[MasterBlaster]

I was wondering that myself then I considered the poster...

[Will]

This is a section of Pinus radiata i found at a job.

[DMc]

I just got through reading this thread and real nice, lively discussions. I like this.

As far as Sudden Limb Drop, I think this is someone's trying to coin a phrase; something we all have a tendency towards. It is very difficult to accept the fact that sometimes there is more than one right answer for different situations that may appear very similar.

Limbs of different species of trees with different structure and growth patterns, with and without defects, may experience what I prefer is the earlier term of Summer Branch Drop. I have seen this alot on hot, humid days throughout the summer. This is often associated with a defect, but not always. Sometimes the separation is clean and sometimes not. This seems to be species specific. Not dissimilar to storm damage.

Dave

[Mr. Sir]

That seems to happen a lot on our Florida Elms and Laurel oaks.

[Skwerl]

My theory/ observations on the laurel oaks dropping limbs is this:
We typically have a very dry period in the spring (April/ May) where we may go 3-4 weeks without rain. Temps are rising and can get into the low-mid 90s. The extended dry, hot weather weakens the trees and the wood contracts and can crack. Then we get a big, long rainstorm that drops an inch or two of rain over several hours. The trees soak up the water and the wood swells. 1-2 days later we have dozens of calls for broken limbs and split trees.

[Frans]

again, this 'sudden limb drop' describes a very paticular way that the limbs seperate from the stem.
Clean break at the branch bark collar, no tearing.
Maybe it is limited to specific species, I don't know

[Mr. Sir]

I've never seen one break at the branch collar. It's usually about a foot to ten feet from the trunk.

[Bodean]

Few CODIT from yesterday's crane job while I was waiting.

The last picture of the two spar butt was the removal.
Rated a whole tree failure with butt rot by our "Assessment Group".

After we cut it, not 1% of rot.

[treelooker]

Sweet pics Bo.

doesn't look like that "Group" bothered :X to examine the fill side of the trunk; no digging evident. How high up did they assess this fearsome decay?

Keepin their hands nice and clean eh? :|: