Throwing chains

[Greenhorn]

Guess this question goes here... Been doing storm damage work the last two days and it had kinda humbled me as to my saw skills. Trying to find out the best way to relieve pressure when one tree is leaning into the next and you are piecing it out. I mostly notch the topside and then nip away at the backside until pressure was relieved. Timing being critical to avoid snatching the saw or throwing the chain. Even stump cuts on already split trunks the wood was trying to grab chains and acting nasty. That coupled with chipping knarly hackberry with my whisper made for fun days - paid good though. Dangerous friggin work - damaged trees in other trees. Get to remove healthy trees for a change tomorrow.

[squisher]

A tip for chainthrows. Get in the habit of hitting your chainbrake the instant your chain throws. This stops your drivers from getting chewed up.

[wiley_p]

In a very simple way, you have to relieve as much compressed wood as you can and finish quickly cutting up the tension wood. Read Your Bind. You can run into all of the binds, side, end, top, bottom. proper bucking can redistribute where the wood is tensioned or squeezed. look at both ends of your material, see where the wood is being smashed, and pulled. :/:

[MasterBlaster]

I hate all the compression/tension dilemmas storm work provides.

[sotc]

i thoroughly enjoy the complexities

[lumberjack]

Ha me too, watch your kerf, it'll open, close or twist, letting you know which way it wants to go.

[Blinky]

Sometimes when I have a bad pinned tree or windthrow I shave the compression side to progressively relieve stress until it collapses slowly.

[Frans]

I know this sounds even more basic, especially when talking about advanced chain saw cutting but,


force yourself to only cut with a sharp chain.
Reading a cut is made even harder if you are pushing or yanking on the saw just to get it to cut.

[wiley_p]

Ha me too, watch your kerf, it'll open, close or twist, letting you know which way it wants to go.
Thats not the best habit. Learning to read the binds present is a much more sound tactic.

[gf beranek]

Once I got two saws stuck in a tree and had to go to the truck and get a third to buck the others out. I was thinking to myself, "Man, if I get this one stuck I'm out of bullets." I'll have to start chopping.

[squisher]

Brings to mind another tip. When cutting out a pinched saw a good practice is to take the powerhead off of the pinched bar. I was helping a friend who was cutting a neighboring strip and had got pinched, I was in a hurry and learned that one the expensive way, I went in for half of the new casing as he had offered to take the powerhead off but I assured him no problemo.:lol:

[lumberjack]

Thats not the best habit. Learning to read the binds present is a much more sound tactic.

Sometimes there is too many forces/vectors present to "read."

[squisher]

Experience plays the biggest part in 'reading' binds, which is why I haven't gotten into trying to explain how I deal with pressured wood. Because every situation is different. The tree, the bind, the terrain, the saw countless factors come into play. Be careful with pressured wood is the best advice, don't rush and think about what you're doing don't just start cutting.

[JIML]

My 440 at work throws chains all the time. I usually use it for cutting brush though. Fairly easy to do it then. Been slapped in the man parts several times by the chain off it. Threw a few on the 200t, most of them just break tho.

[Burnham]

Ha me too, watch your kerf, it'll open, close or twist, letting you know which way it wants to go.


Thats not the best habit. Learning to read the binds present is a much more sound tactic.


Sometimes there is too many forces/vectors present to "read."

I have to say that neither method should be used to the exclusion of the other. I'm with Dave when he says you need to read the binds; that's your first step, and this gives you the information to base your plan of attack at each bucking point. If you just put saw to wood and go 'til the tree talks to you, you may have already limited your choices, not a wise thing.

On the other hand, you must pay attention to what the tree gives you as feedback as you undertake execution of your plan. Carl is absolutely right when he says the tree will let you know which way it wants to go...if that feedback coincides with your read and the approach you have taken, all is well...but if not, you must whoa back and re-evalute, make a new plan to accomodate the new information.


General ideas:
A certain amount of chain throwing can be avoided by keeping your chain tension just right. Don't twist the saw. Keep a sharp chain and let it work the wood, don't try to horse the saw. Be patient, take your time. Only commit as much bar as is necessary to release heavy tension. If you can tell that one side of your cut is going to stay put and the other is going to move, keep your cuts either perfectly lined up or shade the release cut to the side that will stay put. Keep your body away from the moving side, cut with your off hand if you need to to do this. It is usually better to start bucking at the small end of the tree, if possible.

[lumberjack]

That's my thinking Burnham, thanks for writing it out.

[MasterBlaster]

I gotta disagree with your last sentence, B.

[Skwerl]

I gotta disagree with your last sentence, B.

At first I did too, but I think B is correct. I brush out a downed tree from the bottom up, but then I buck up the trunk from the top down.

[MasterBlaster]

I gotta disagree with your last sentence, B.


I take it back! Brian made me think more about it. I meant brushing, and Burnham meant bucking.

My bad. :|:

[Burnham]

I gotta disagree with your last sentence, B.

Here's my train of thought on it, Butch: the smaller wood is more flexible, and thus it is usually a bit easier to read binds because the wood will deflect to follow those loads. Also, the wood is lighter, so if you do get pinched, you stand a better chance of getting free.

The main reason, though is that there will always be multiple binds in a full tree, so getting rid of the easier-to-deal-with ones first simplifies things as you get into the heavier wood. Of course, small wood whipping around can hurt you plenty, but big wood is more dangerous in my mind. Note I said "usually"...there are times when that won't be the first choice, certainly.

FWIW, limbing from the butt up and bucking from the top down is the accepted practice in woods work. "Usually" ;).

[Burnham]

We posted at the same time, Butch...we are on the same page.

[Mr. Sir]

Another reason to buck from the top down is that there is often more "debris" (dirt, etc) in the lower portion of the trunk. AND I always make the stump cut last for this reason.

[MasterBlaster]

I shoulda known! ;)


We posted at the same time, Butch...we are on the same page.

[Bounce]

I worked for the wilderness trail crew for 2 summers out of Naches, WA about 10 years ago. We had to cut logs out of the trail with a f*#$&ing crosscut saw (aka the misery whip). I remember getting that saw stuck in a log that was 4-5 ft in diameter when we were approx 3/4 through. It took us a day and a half to chop through with axes to get it out (2 people working in 1/2 shifts to give each other a break). Ever since, I've always felt that 5 minutes spent "reading" the tension and contemplating my cut was not a waste of time. I believe the key is not to be in a hurry. Take your time and maybe even make a bore cut or two at key points to test/relieve the tension/compression. I use bore cuts a lot in storm work so I can start from the inside of a log rather than the outside.

[lumberjack]

You know Sean, we got these new-fandangled dee-vicus called chain saws eh? They figured 'em out in the 26th year of the 20th century.





































:P

[sotc]

yeah but wildlife would forever be harmed in the widerness if you were to fire and engine there:/:

[Burnham]

yeah but wildlife would forever be harmed in the widerness if you were to fire and engine there:/:

Oh hell, the critters don't care, and certainly don't vote. It's the tree huggers who can't stand the idea of the wilderness being sullied by the noise of that 26th year of the 20th century.

[GASoline71]

I have been on the trails up in the Naches that Sean is talking about... If you were the one that was cuttin' those monster blowdowns... Holy crap... I feel for ya buddy.

There are some big nasty trees up there across those trails. The powerline road that goes from Crow Creek/Khaner Flats all the way up to Raven's Roost is a favoriye with the Jeep and ATV crowd. Some of the mud holes will swallow a truck, so these guys are going off the trail further and further to go around them. There are areas that they have destroyed so the underground powerlines are exposed as well. The powerlines go up to a Microwave tower at the top of Raven's Roost.

They are not using straps for their winches around the trees, and undermining all the root sysyems. Some of the "trails" that go around the mud pits go almost 100 yards into the woods.

These chuckleheads then wonder why the FS wants them off of the trails and is closing land use to 4X4's...

Gary

[Bounce]

Yeah Gary, the road to Raven's Roost has become pretty popular among off roaders who apparently take great delight in utterly destroying it on a bi-monthly basis. We used to have a great time driving those green FS rigs up and down that road fast enough to hydroplane over the worst of the potholes/lakes. At least we could use chainsaws around there though. For some stupid reason they don't let you use chainsaws in wilderness areas. As near as I can figure, it's because they would prevent you from being able to hear the Navy jets practicing low altitude flying. Those guys flew so low we could see the color of their hair sitting in the cockpit. I think they used us as targets to practice mock bombing runs. To be perfectly honest though, we never could have used chainsaws to clear wildnerness trails anyway because we couldn't have carried enough gas to last a whole week.

[GASoline71]

Those jets are on low level training routes through the valleys of Eastern Washington. Most of them come from where I work... NAS Whidbey Island.

I used to elk hunt up there. It would be so nice and peaceful up there on the ridge above Crow Creek or on Cougar Ridge... then you would hear those baby's rumbling throuigh the mountains... You could look down on them from the ridgetops... I always though to myself... "Damn, I can never get away from those noisy bastids..." LOL

Gary

[sotc]

we get them around here doing touch and go from the guard station in klamath falls

[Bodean]

I use alot of boring cuts when I'm bucking logs.
Also helps in lining up my cuts to avoid mismatched ones.

I use it as a wedge as well.

I just cut through on the compression til it wants to tighten then leave
a few inches of wood til you bore in on the tension side and cut the rest of
the log. The wood you left can usually be tripped easily without fear of
pinching.

I could be wrong though. :)

[Burnham]

I use alot of boring cuts when I'm bucking logs.
Also helps in lining up my cuts to avoid mismatched ones.

I use it as a wedge as well.

I just cut through on the compression til it wants to tighten then leave
a few inches of wood til you bore in on the tension side and cut the rest of
the log. The wood you left can usually be tripped easily without fear of
pinching.

I could be wrong though. :)

Trip the strip from the compression side or the tension side, Deva? Must be tension, I think.

[Al Smith]

I've never thrown that many chains,thank heavens .I have had two saws however hung in the same tree. More than once I have to admit .

I had a little climber hung in a limb once about 35 feet up.I tied the saw off and snatched the limb out from the ground with my pick em up for power .

[stehansen]

We would get jets occasionally where I worked in Wells, NV, Where I grew up in Patterson it was 3 miles from the Crows Landing Naval Air Station which is a part of Moffett. During Vietnam there was quite a few jets but after that there were the Orions doing touch and goes most of the time. Most of the time we didn't even see them but if there was a south wind, then they would come over our house, but not low, at least a thousand feet up.

[The Branch Doctor]

I like to use a plastic wedge when I'm bucking. Is that bad?

[sotc]

i do that some times to, just a place holder to let me cut deeper with out getting bound

[Frans]

I like to use a plastic wedge when I'm bucking. Is that bad?

No, that is a sure sign of being a professional. The rookie cutter or slacker worker does not bother to use a wedge when needed to keep the wood from binding the bar and chain.

[MasterBlaster]

That's about the only time I do use a wedge. That, and ALAPing stumps.

[squisher]

You should always have wedges when felling a tree even if you are using a pull line imo. Anything can happen and I like having a wedge/axe with me just in case.

[sotc]

i agree, ive wished a few times i had a wedge in a hairy spot

[MasterBlaster]

Ewwwww!

[Al Smith]

i agree, ive wished a few times i had a wedge in a hairy spot Well,some times I wish I had a road map .;)

[sotc]

haha sickos:P

[Blinky]

Hell yeah, I definitely use a wedge bucking big wood. I hate sticking a saw.

I keep wedges handy for felling but don't use'em much, I like ropes on residential jobs; plus the customer feels more comfortable when they see a rope in the tree.

[GASoline71]

I like to use a plastic wedge when I'm bucking. Is that bad?

No that is good... the only place for metal wedges is for splitting wood with a maul.

Using plastic wedges saves the chain if it comes in contact with the wedge. It is a good idea to use wedges when buckin' up logs to keep from binding.

...and as Butch said, when ALAPing big stumps. Keeps the stump off'n the bar and chain for easy cuttin'.

Gary

[Al Smith]

Oh ,I 've tripped more than a few trees using steel wedges . Then again I've hit them with a chain too,not good .:whine:

[squisher]

I keep wedges handy for felling but don't use'em much, I like ropes on residential jobs; plus the customer feels more comfortable when they see a rope in the tree.

My insurance specifies a pull rope so I put one in damn near every tree I fell even if it's a natural, just in case.

I honestly never use wedges for bucking up wood in a residential setting. Hell if I ever do get pinched there's a whole armoury of saws not far away. Plus the mini can help out now if need be. In the bush is another story getting pinched can fork up your day.

[lumberjack]

My insurance specifies a pull rope so I put one in damn near every tree I fell even if it's a natural, just in case.

I honestly never use wedges for bucking up wood in a residential setting. Hell if I ever do get pinched there's a whole armoury of saws not far away. Plus the mini can help out now if need be. In the bush is another story getting pinched can fork up your day.


I hate them natural trees, they can look so simple until you stick a saw in them.


I very rarely, if ever, use wedges for bucking. I do use them for throwing suitable trees. This past weekend I used wedges to drop 3 back/side leaning (towards the house) trees, had to use a rope on the last one. I do use a rope far more than wedges.

My customers aren't educated enough to prefer a rope.

[Husky D]

[QUOTE=Burnham;220188]I have to say that neither method should be used to the exclusion of the other. I'm with Dave when he says you need to read the binds; that's your first step, and this gives you the information to base your plan of attack at each bucking point. If you just put saw to wood and go 'til the tree talks to you, you may have already limited your choices, not a wise thing.

On the other hand, you must pay attention to what the tree gives you as feedback as you undertake execution of your plan. Carl is absolutely right when he says the tree will let you know which way it wants to go...if that feedback coincides with your read and the approach you have taken, all is well...but if not, you must whoa back and re-evalute, make a new plan to accomodate the new information.


General ideas:
A certain amount of chain throwing can be avoided by keeping your chain tension just right. Don't twist the saw. Keep a sharp chain and let it work the wood, don't try to horse the saw. Be patient, take your time. Only commit as much bar as is necessary to release heavy tension. If you can tell that one side of your cut is going to stay put and the other is going to move, keep your cuts either perfectly lined up or shade the release cut to the side that will stay put. Keep your body away from the moving side, cut with your off hand if you need to to do this. It is usually better to start bucking at the small end of the tree, if possible.[/QUO

Good post Burnham but would add just be careful if you buck from the small end if you have fully windblown tree's that as you release weight that the root plate doesn't take the tree back up into the vertical. If your bar doesnt reach fully across the trunk do a vertical reduction cut (as long as there isn't side tension) and leave yourself the smallest amount of wood you can to cut as quickly as possible. Stepping your saw a couple of inches away from your compression cut towards the piece of timber that will move the least will give you a safety margin for pinching or throwing your saw.
Can be really interesting cutting windblown timber at times!:O

[MasterBlaster]

I use a wedge all the time bucking the bigger wood. It just makes thing easy and that's what I'm shooting for 'cuz Imma lazy bastid.

[Skwerl]

Yup, me too. In the last few years I've gotten to where I don't like cutting up big wood on the ground unless I have a wedge handy. Too much work trying to 'beat the pinch' or having to stop and deal with the inevitable stuck bar. With the wedge it's sooooo easy. Just cut 2/3 of the way through, tap the wedge and finish the cut (without hitting the dirt). The wood always falls away from your bar.

[MasterBlaster]

Easy peasy! :thumbup:

[Jamin Mayer]

General ideas:
A certain amount of chain throwing can be avoided by keeping your chain tension just right. Don't twist the saw.

My experience too. Now, I'm not a perfect sawyer, but I can't remember the last time I have thrown a chain. In my early days I probably threw about a half a dozen chains. Usually, because of a improperly tensioned chain.

I have hundreds of tree removals under my belt (not much compared to some of y'all) but, I don't have much storm work under my belt. Is it simply because of tensioned wood causing the chains to throw more often?:?

Or, is it a combination of twisting with a improperly tensioned chain and tensioned wood?

[Burnham]

I reckon tensioned bigger wood means more frequent binding...binding leads to attempts to get the saw unbound...which leads to twisting the saw in the kerf...which leads to throwing chains. Smaller wood under tension has the same thing going on, with the additional likelyhood that smaller wood will do the twisting for you, throwing chains.

And in both cases having a loose chain greatly increases the thrown chain incidence rate.

[rbtree]

Once I got two saws stuck in a tree and had to go to the truck and get a third to buck the others out. I was thinking to myself, "Man, if I get this one stuck I'm out of bullets." I'll have to start chopping.

Same here, Jer. About 1990. It was a 36 inch dbh hemlock lodged in a maple at a 45 degree angle. Had lines on it, after limbing it and cutting it back to where it was lodged. Stuck two saws trying to cut it off the stump...didn't have any blocks or a way to lift it back in those days. Shoulda used several wedges, and some other method of cutting.

[CurSedVoyce]

My Partner is always throwing chains, I try and get him to keep an eye on his chain tension... butttt...... LOL. I rarely throw chain anymore save for brushing. Buck brush is notorious for pinching bar and chain. Soooo many pinch points. Another thought is the bar. Always make sure your bar is dressed well along with you chain tension. I worn bar can add to chain twist and throw the chain. In my experience anyway. We have a lot of storm trees here in the lower Sierras. Especially the live oaks. You have to read the stress points about every cut. My guys laugh at me for talking to the tree before I start my cutting. Guess its my way of reading the tree and saying my prayers.... LOL.

[pantheraba]

Welcome to the House, CurSedV. Nothing wrong with talking to a tree...we should respect our elders...most have been here a lot longer than us.

[CurSedVoyce]

Thank you for the welcome Gary. :)
It's good to be here....

[Cobleskill]

I never had any problems throwing chains untill they slimmed the bars down. It doesn't happen often, but it never used to happen. It is usually a twig that does it for me.

[CurSedVoyce]

LOL at the twig .............. I dont have the twig issue..... but sometimes a 3 inch branch can make life interesting.... LOL
Guess that can be considered a twig in some of the stuff we do ..LOL.

[Rotax Robert]

Many good points were made in this thread and certainly all are valid but thought I might might throw in one more. Many here run modded saws ie: muffler mods.

I know many who run a larger sprocket say 8 pin/tooth verse 7 pin/tooth. When running a 8 pin/tooth sprocket the diameter of the sprocket is larger than the heel of the bar, so with this application the chain is not engaging back into the bar rails for a considerable distance causing a greater chance of throwing a chain.

While this is more common in racing applications where we run 9,10,11 or even 12 pin sprockets the heel of the bar must be taken back/modified so the chain does not travel though mid-air to great of a distance which greatly increases the chance of a chain throw.

Just another thought from a guy who tops his trees about 2 feet from ground level. :P

[Al Smith]

.



While this is more common in racing applications where we run 9,10,11 or even 12 pin sprockets the heel of the bar must be taken back/modified so the chain does not travel though mid-air to great of a distance which greatly increases the chance of a chain throw.

Just another thought from a guy who tops his trees about 2 feet from ground level. :P Here is an example of a cut down ,matched bar .Not a big deal to do but time consuming .

I thought it was a great idea at the time however the Mac 125 didn't quite have enough soup to pull it fast enough.Back to the drawing board as they say