What type of hitch?

[Ace76]

What hitch do you guys use when lowering a heavy limb or section of trunk?

[top hopper]

A running bowline, or timber hitch.

For lighter limbs a clove hitch

[Ace76]

Thanks. i gotta help my Uncle this weekend. he is cutting a large limb from a tree and i am going to try to keep him from dropping on his house.

[MasterBlaster]

ALWAYS a running bowline. Sometimes with a half-hitch (marl?), sometimes knot.

[Skwerl]

Running bowline mostly. If you're pushing the limits of your rope, take smaller pieces. If there's enough drop for me to be concerned about shock loading, I'll wrap the rope around the limb twice before tying the running bowline. This helps reduce the load on the knot. In my experience that's where the rope will break if overloaded.

[stehansen]

Same as Skwerl here.

[lumberjack]

ALWAYS a running bowline. Sometimes with a half-hitch (marl?), sometimes knot.

This is what I do, but I tie a marl or a half hitch very rarely, normally on pieces that could tip/flop around, otherwise I don't see how adding another 90* bend in the rope does much good in a typical setting.

Pics from back in the day, the half hitch and the marl can be tied so that its tail pulls either direction. The idea as I understand it is that it pulls in the direction that tightens the bowline.

Marl:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/IMG_8168.jpg

Half Hitch:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Trees/IMG_8167-1.jpg

[MasterBlaster]

I see no difference. :drink:

[MasterBlaster]

Wait, now I do.

So what's the diff???

[lumberjack]

While neither would be anywhere near good, if I had to choose one to slip off, it'd be the half hitch.

[Frans]

ALWAYS a running bowline. Sometimes with a half-hitch (marl?), sometimes knot.


I cannot add anything to this....


A marl takes the load. I saw this when dropping 2-3 ton euc. limbs. The marl would fail.

So in taking reasonable limbs, 1, you want the knot to stick to the limb and not have it slip off the end of the limb. so a marl is kind of a back up to the real knot.


After the marl, I usually tie a clove hitch. LumberJacks method of tieing a bowline is a perfect way of doing it because you can untie the knot after the limb is on the ground.

For some reason I tie a clove hitch after the marl.

The clove hitch grabbes the limb better than a running bowline, but can be impossible to untie after it sinks into the wood from a heavy limb.


Take from these posts what you will, but the main point is to DONT OVER LOAD YOUR ROPES OR ANCHOR POINT.

[Skwerl]

...and Frans can definitely be considered an industry expert on overloading rigging. Have you seen his video with the Volvo? It's fantastic!
:big-bounce::big-not-worthy:

[lumberjack]

My biggest nugget is certainly short of a Volvo. 22-2500lbs, dropped and caught on a 20-25' spar. Probably used a half hitch.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/10mmsheepdog/Defectongroundstandingby.jpg

[TheTreeSpyder]

A half hitch is like a loop thrown over the mount/load to precede the Running bowline; if yo slip the Half Hitch off it melts to nothing. A Marl is like making an Overhand and slipping it over the load to precede the Running Bowline etc.; so if a Marl is slipped off the end you will be left with an Overhand knot in the line.

Each gives a 2nd grab on the load; but also places the trapping pull inline. When we just have a Running Bowline that goes to a fence rail and we pull perpendicular to the rail; the 'stop' of the line is inline/not perpendicular to the pull of the Standing Part's pull. But; if we pull pairallell to the fence rail; we are then pulling the 'stop' of the 'knot' at an angle to the Standing Part's pull; leveraging the knot's grip. Most lowering is like a pull pairallell with the rail/load.

Preceding with a Marl or Half Hitch; makes it the main grip; and the tail of the line between the Marl or Half and the Running Bowline becomes the main 'stop'; that is now inline properly to the initiating pull of the Standing part. A Marl will be harder to set, but should hold better. Both the Running Bowline and the preceding Hitch should be before the CG for them to pull close most firmly, and not be tempted to flip or unsettle.

[JIML]

I use a clove hitch more than I do a running bowline it seems. Ties faster for me.

[MasterBlaster]

Unsafe, to me.

[MasterBlaster]

While neither would be anywhere near good, if I had to choose one to slip off, it'd be the half hitch.

That makes a lotta sense. :|:

And again I ask "What's the diff?" One is left-handed, the other's right. Big whoop.

[TheTreeSpyder]

The Marl makes an Overhand knot when slipped off the end, a Half Hitch melts to nothing. So, either could be maid left or right. It takes more to properly set a Marl; as it will self set a lil'less surely if left tooo loose IMLHO for it must pull through the Overhand; qwhereby a Half Hitch is more 'transparent'/slips tight easier. But, then once set, a Marl is more secure, especially for intermittent jerking/loading; for the 'tightness' is more set and maintained behind the Overhand.

i would think that a Marl/Overhand would bend/leverage the force in the Standing Part more; so be less efficient/'weaker' IMLHO.

[MasterBlaster]

I think I see it now. Thanks Kenny!

[Bounce]

Holy crap! I just now finally understood what Palmer and Tompkins were talking about on the Art & Science of Rigging video when they were describing the difference between a marl and a half hitch. Those guys make it sound like molecular biology or something. All I needed was some plain english. Thank you Kenny!

[BostonBull]

I use a marl with a cow hitch above it, then I tie a half hitch under the cow.

[inztrees]

I prefer a running bowline, myself.

[Frans]

ArborMaster= crap :thumbdown:

-THIS IS JUST MY PERSONAL OPINION-

[lumberjack]

...All I needed was some plain english. Thank you Kenny!

That has GOT to be a first in the history of the Internet!

I've always been underwhelmed at the intelligence of the Arbormaster staff.

[lumberjack]

I use a marl with a cow hitch above it, then I tie a half hitch under the cow.

Am I missing something or does this not make sense?

[Stumper]

Yes......and yes.

[Ax-Man]

+3 I don't get it either. BB has some explaining to do or a pic of this knot.

[rbtree]

That has GOT to be a first in the history of the Internet!

I've always been underwhelmed at the intelligence of the Arbormaster staff.


Hah, gotta agree wholeheartedly with both statements, Carl...

Kenny, ya dun guud!!

[lumberjack]

If you can't dazzle them with intelligence, baffle them with bullshit.

I talked to a couple of them in Minni Apps at the Tree Fund Climb, including the dark haired owner. I was trying to gather some knowledge on the speedline I helped set up. One answer was flat wrong, the other was complete BS.

[Stumper]

Well shoot-you coulda got THAT here!

[lumberjack]

I dunno, it was a special breed of stupid.

[top hopper]

Carl are you referring to the Arbormasters?

[squisher]

For someone such as myself I have the art & science vids and with no 'outside' connection at all I have found them quite useful.

My .02

[lumberjack]

Yeah Cuz.

Squish, I'll come up there and learn ya proper.

[squisher]

Lol I dunno if I could afford ya.:lol:

Heh if I run into some really cool job I'll keep it in mind. I dunno if anything to spectacular treewise ever happens around here :(. I mentioned crane to a homeowner last week who's a multi-millionaire and he practically ran away!

[lumberjack]

Lol I dunno if I could afford ya.:lol:

Heh if I run into some really cool job I'll keep it in mind. I dunno if anything to spectacular treewise ever happens around here :(. I mentioned crane to a homeowner last week who's a multi-millionaire and he practically ran away!


Ha I'm cheaper than one would immagine, unless you start buying my groceries. Just ask John, Wesely, Leon, Gary, Dave, Brendon, or Brian. :P

[squisher]

Heh if you're heading north I'm sure I could learn a thing or ten from ya.

[top hopper]

Carl works for food and Zima

[Banned by Squirrels]

All of these knots have their place. Good luck Ace!

[rumination]

Ha I'm cheaper than one would immagine, unless you start buying my groceries. Just ask John, Wesely, Leon, Gary, Dave, Brendon, or Brian. :P


Yes, he's good at spreading his mooching around.:P

Just kidding. I always enjoy being able to hang with Carl, and he is a really easy going, low maintenance guy. He sure can put away an incredible amount of food, though.


As for the Art and Science of Practical Rigging: I have only read the book, not seen the videos, but I thought the book was a good presentation of the basics of rigging. It's not written by the Arbormaster guys, though. I guess the videos were done by them? I did see one of their felling videos in which they recommended using the open face notch 100% of the time, which is ridiculous.

[BostonBull]

Sorry if there is confusion...........I re-read what I posted, and I menat half hitch not marl. Shouldnt read and type at the same time!

I tie a half hitch first and then, instead of using a bowline or a clove, I use a cow hitch and back it up with a half hitch under it.

If this is still foggy ill get a pic up later.

[OTGBOSTON]

I've always been underwhelmed at the intelligence of the Arbormaster staff.

try these guys http://www.northamericantrainingsolutions.com/

Of course trying to teach or demonstrate something to tree guys is a difficult task. There is always someone who thinks they know more than the instructor and disrupts the whole thing. I have seen many tree related seminars go horribly wrong because of the audience.

[Frans]

I did see one of their felling videos in which they recommended using the open face notch 100% of the time, which is ridiculous.


That is a very touchy point with those guys.

Pete Donzelli comes to mind... tree barber chaired on him and he died. Remember him?

[rumination]

How would an open faced notch have prevented a barber chair?

[sotc]

i may have heard wrong but i thought the tree failed below him?

[Frans]

How would an open faced notch have prevented a barber chair?

It didn't

[rumination]

I'm confused.

[Burnham]

Me too.

[Frans]

You will get over it :lol:

The open face cut DID NOT prevent the tree from barber chairing.

The way they taught to make a face cut was not appropriate for the tree he was working on.


For the very real fear of being sued, I suggest you do your own research on this incident or begin a thread in a more private forum. A man died, a good man.

All I can say is don't adhere to one method because every tree is different. Just because a guy says to.

[Koa Man]

Ha I'm cheaper than one would imagine, unless you start buying my groceries. Just ask John, Wesley, Leon, Gary, Dave, Brendon, or Brian. :P

My son-in-law would like to hire Carl full time. When he was in Hawaii he worked with us for 2 days for only $200 a day, and he provided his own gear.

Needs more practice with trimming coconut trees though. He did good with taking them down, but was god-awful slow on trimming. :lol:

[top hopper]

i may have heard wrong but i thought the tree failed below him?



It did,

he was in the tree and it failed beneath him and he fell.

Barber chairing had nothing to do with it

[top hopper]

So Frans, Im curious.....

was Donzelli stupid too?

He made a fatal mistake, surely he had it coming no?

[lumberjack]

Crystal clear Boston's Bull.

OTG, I've never taken any training from them although I've chatted with them at the conferences and they took it appon themselves to inject themselves as an authority when checking out my work on the speed line.

Ha Wesely, I suck at trimming, that's for certain. I'dda worked for free, it was a good experiance and I didn't really DO all that much. Kevin sure can tear up grass on the Gehl though. :p

Cuz, this be a DHFF zone!





DHFF= Dead Horse Flogging Free

[OTGBOSTON]

There was NOT a lowering device. the top was butt hitched with trunk wraps for friction.

When the top was tipped over the shock load broke the tree many feet below Pete and he fell over 50 feet with two tree sections. He was attached to the spar when he hit the ground.

Pete died five years ago. I miss him dearly every day

__________________

This quote is from Tom D over at AS.

I had the pleasure of attending an Arbormaster training run by Stanley Longstaff and Pete Donzelli. Both were great guys who I learned a lot from.

Yeah Carl, I had a similar interaction with one of the Arbormasters. Maybe it was the same guy??:/:

[Frans]

There was NOT a lowering device. the top was butt hitched with trunk wraps for friction.

When the top was tipped over the shock load broke the tree many feet below Pete and he fell over 50 feet with two tree sections. He was attached to the spar when he hit the ground.

Pete died five years ago. I miss him dearly every day

__________________

This quote is from Tom D over at AS.

I had the pleasure of attending an Arbormaster training run by Stanley Longstaff and Pete Donzelli. Both were great guys who I learned a lot from.

Yeah Carl, I had a similar interaction with one of the Arbormasters. Maybe it was the same guy??:/:

Thanks for the post..



The eternal question is.....

why was the 'crime scene' cleaned up?


Frans

[BostonBull]

Crystal clear Boston's Bull.

Glad it all makes sense now Lumber's Jack

[OTGBOSTON]

why was the 'crime scene' cleaned up?


Frans


you know something we don't?:/: cali is a long way from upstate New York, were you there?

[TheTreeSpyder]

i h'eared it was cleaned up; then doc Shigo demanded all of the pieces back for forensic analysis. i understand there was rot in section below him; and the groundman took an extra (3rd?) wrap; and it didn't have enough slide and so snatched the top out at the deterioration. Pete was above that.

He was an engineer that set that aside to investigate tree climbing and rigging etc. more the way i heard it.

[OTGBOSTON]

Knowing Tom I will take his word that it happened the way he said it did.

conspiracy theories are for t.v. shows and movies.

You're right Kenny, he was an Engineer, and he got bit by the same climbing bug as the rest of us. He made great contributions to the industry, we work in a safer worl because of him and like-minded guys like him.

[Frans]

you know something we don't?:/: cali is a long way from upstate New York, were you there?

uhh no.

Should I have been to have heard the truth?



Your statement is worthless. And stupid.

Did I set foot on the moon? No.

But I do believe what I hear from near and dear friends.

I morn Pete's leaving us....

[OTGBOSTON]

Your statement is worthless. And stupid.

....

well, I guess if you say so it must be true...........:big-wave:

[MasterBlaster]

Alright youse guys assed for it!

[Frans]

well, I guess if you say so it must be true...........:big-wave:

I forgot the smiley :)

[OTGBOSTON]

I can only assume that you suffer from a very serious mental illness, good luck with that:|:

[Frans]

Kalifornians ALL have mental illness

:)

[BostonBull]

Your statement is worthless. And stupid.


People who make comments like this with no supporting facts, especially with a subject as sensitive as a mans death, in Boston generally don't walk out of the establishment they are in.

Have some respect.